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PlayStation Meeting 2013 (PS4 unveiling - conference replay in first post) - Page 14

post #391 of 1994
Quote:
Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

It does for the game publishers.

It's a good thing, then, that they're not the ones who make the consoles.

Quote:


Every dollar lost on a used game sale is being funneled to shareholders instead of being reinvested in the industry as a purchase. Gamestop, because of their near monopoly, really is hurting the industry. Not because of outright used game sales, but because they're skimming way, way, way too much off the top in their model.

Slight exaggeration.

First of all, Gamestop is far from a monopoly. The majority of retail game sales happen in places like Walmart.

Second of all, far from "every dollar lost on a used game sale" is being funneled to shareholders. The majority of the used games that Gamestop has in stock come from trade ins that customers then turn right back around into either a new or a used game. Those same GS customers also buy peripherals, preorders, DLC, PSN/XBL cards, and so on.

The one thing that Gamestop does with used sales that is absolutely reprehensible is sell used versions of brand new releases. Selling a used copy of a new release for $55 directly undercuts the new version. This is the one part of their business practice that publishers and GS need to compromise on. This is where the majority of the harm comes from.
post #392 of 1994
Quote:
Originally Posted by confidenceman View Post

It's a good thing, then, that they're not the ones who make the consoles.

The one thing that Gamestop does with used sales that is absolutely reprehensible is sell used versions of brand new releases. Selling a used copy of a new release for $55 directly undercuts the new version. This is the one part of their business practice that publishers and GS need to compromise on. This is where the majority of the harm comes from.

Being the cheap gamer that I am I would have to say that Gamestop is not the one undercutting new versions of games. It is the game makers themselves and the big box retail stores that do. When I can get a new Batman AC for $10 (with Best Buy Gamer unlocked coupon) less than 6 months after release how can they expect anyone to pay $60 after the first week? My game purchases from just the best buy deals last month looks like this.
Batman AC $10
Rage $5
Mass Effect 2 $5
Bullet Storm $5
Final Fantasy XIII-2 $15
Total $40 for 5 big budget recent AAA games

They are making too many big budget games, and thats no complaint, its just that retailers can't give each game prime space for long periods of time, and after the first week another big game is pushing to have a large section on the shelf. So the big box retailers have sales or clearance out recent games.
Even MW3 and Skyrim the biggest releases of the holiday season have gone on sale for $40 numerous times. Target does B2G1's on new games frequently. Amazon pretty much matches any other major retailers sales. Black Friday, Week After Xmas, Memorial day, 4th of July, Labor day, and 1st of Octember sales also keep a good portion of consumers from spending the full $60 for a new game. In the short term it means I (we) can get great games cheaply not too long after release, in the long term I think that the industry, specifically big budget console games, is going to go through a contraction.
post #393 of 1994
Quote:
Originally Posted by todrigo View Post


Being the cheap gamer that I am I would have to say that Gamestop is not the one undercutting new versions of games. It is the game makers themselves and the big box retail stores that do. When I can get a new Batman AC for $10 (with Best Buy Gamer unlocked coupon) less than 6 months after release how can they expect anyone to pay $60 after the first week? My game purchases from just the best buy deals last month looks like this.
Batman AC $10
Rage $5
Mass Effect 2 $5
Bullet Storm $5
Final Fantasy XIII-2 $15
Total $40 for 5 big budget recent AAA games

Could you PM me details of this deal? I'm all for saving money.

And THIS is how you combat used games, good sales to get people to jump on the game.
post #394 of 1994
Quote:
Originally Posted by todrigo View Post

Being the cheap gamer that I am I would have to say that Gamestop is not the one undercutting new versions of games. It is the game makers themselves and the big box retail stores that do.

This is a recent trend, and it was designed mostly as a way to combat Gamestop's undercutting with new releases. But I certainly won't complain about it. To me, it suggests that games are overpriced and that $40 is a much more stable price for boxed games.

But you're right that at least part of that is about there being too many good games!
post #395 of 1994
My fear is that ps4 game prices will be higher. Ps3 games are $60 up from $50 for ps2. Hope this doesn't mean $70 games for the new console.
post #396 of 1994
Quote:
Originally Posted by ambesolman View Post

My fear is that ps4 game prices will be higher. Ps3 games are $60 up from $50 for ps2. Hope this doesn't mean $70 games for the new console.

Remember when first party PS2 games were $39.99 at release? I miss those days.

If the Wii U keeps the $49.99 price I'll be very interested.
post #397 of 1994
I imagine a lot of this will be decided by the success or failure of the online-pass model. I only just started trying Gamefly, but already, the vast majority of games I'd like to try require the purchase of an online pass to be able to fully appreciate the game. Even with something like NFS:The Run, where I don't particularly care about racing online, many of the vehicles can only be unlocked by doing online races. Same with SSX, need online pass. For that one, I'll probably just wait till fall when it's down to $20 anyway, then buy it new. I'm not sure how long I'll stick with Gamefly, as unfortunately, I already have most of the current SP heavy-hitters, AC 1,2, etc. UC 1,2,3, Batman AA and AC, etc. I could see it being great for a new PS3 owner though.
post #398 of 1994
Quote:
Originally Posted by ambesolman View Post

My fear is that ps4 game prices will be higher. Ps3 games are $60 up from $50 for ps2. Hope this doesn't mean $70 games for the new console.

Games cost far more to make than ever, besides prices drop fast, SSX is $30 on Amazon right now for example. $60 isn't that much considering inflation. I remember buying Sega games for $70 in the 80s.
post #399 of 1994
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgable View Post

Games cost far more to make than ever, besides prices drop fast, SSX is $30 on Amazon right now for example. $60 isn't that much considering inflation. I remember buying Sega games for $70 in the 80s.

Exactly. The PS1/PS2 generations were flukes in terms of pricing. Original NES games would go for $60-80. The standard for the SNES gen was $60-70. Market growth has kept prices stable for a long time.

The retail market for big games is so messed up right now, though, that I'm hoping we'll start seeing more creative approaches to pricing.
post #400 of 1994
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgable View Post


Games cost far more to make than ever, besides prices drop fast, SSX is $30 on Amazon right now for example. $60 isn't that much considering inflation. I remember buying Sega games for $70 in the 80s.

And carts cost $20-$30 each to produce back then, which is why the industry shifted to discs. It was supposed to keep costs down and improve profits, but now that people have forgotten about that they are raising prices again.
post #401 of 1994
Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

Could you PM me details of this deal? I'm all for saving money.

And THIS is how you combat used games, good sales to get people to jump on the game.

All you have to do is have a subscription to Best Buy's "Gamer Club Unlocked" magazine ($15 per year/ 10 issues). Each issue comes with 8 or so coupons that for various games or accessories. As an exemple the march issue had a $20 off Batman AC coupon, good through the month of march, Best buy also ran a sale on Batman for $29.99 in march, the coupons do stack with sale prices so batman was $10. This month there is a $10 off the Darkness II and it is on sale for $40 this week. The coupons can be hit or miss and are good in-store only, but so far i've been satisfied and I like having the mag to read too.
post #402 of 1994
Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

And carts cost $20-$30 each to produce back then, which is why the industry shifted to discs. It was supposed to keep costs down and improve profits, but now that people have forgotten about that they are raising prices again.

But as mentioned above, games back then used to cost well under $1M to produce and market. Now budgets for full priced games can push as high as $50-60M. And the market for those big games isn't growing as fast as it was ten years ago.

Point is, something's gotta give. Prices aren't going up, but they aren't going down either. Instead, we're going to see even more encroachments on legitimate consumers in the form of DLC, online passes, pre-orders, subscriptions, in-game purchases, etc, etc. If these things can't stabilize the market, it'll die out. Already, we've seen the top-end of the market thin out over the past few years. I would guess that same trend will continue.

Pretty soon, we'll have only a few choices of $60 games to buy. Everything else will be $40-50 portable titles, $15-20 downloadable titles, $1-10 app-size titles, and free-to-play games.
post #403 of 1994
I hope the PS4 scraps the Blu-ray. Keep it small and cool.
Like an AppleTV size box.
post #404 of 1994
Quote:
Originally Posted by defdog99 View Post

I hope the PS4 scraps the Blu-ray. Keep it small and cool.
Like an AppleTV size box.

So you basically want a PSP Go? They already tried that and didn't work out at all as a digital only system. It definitely will not work for the new system from either company.
post #405 of 1994
Quote:
Originally Posted by confidenceman View Post


Second of all, far from "every dollar lost on a used game sale" is being funneled to shareholders. The majority of the used games that Gamestop has in stock come from trade ins that customers then turn right back around into either a new or a used game. Those same GS customers also buy peripherals, preorders, DLC, PSN/XBL cards, and so on.

The one thing that Gamestop does with used sales that is absolutely reprehensible is sell used versions of brand new releases. Selling a used copy of a new release for $55 directly undercuts the new version. This is the one part of their business practice that publishers and GS need to compromise on. This is where the majority of the harm comes from.

While it's true gamers do roll over what gamespot pays them into new or other used purchases, you need to keep in mind that they pay cents on the dollar compared to what they sell the games for.

They will pay you $5, then turn around and sell it for $55. $50 of value is wiped out and sent off to shareholders, and not reinvested into the gaming industry.

Thats the real sticker, because you are right that gamers tend to trade in old games to fund new purchases and purchases on other things.

Luckily other stores have been jumping into used games sales (even amazon) which is starting to have an effect of bringing buying and resale prices closer in line.
post #406 of 1994
Quote:
Originally Posted by todrigo View Post

Being the cheap gamer that I am I would have to say that Gamestop is not the one undercutting new versions of games. It is the game makers themselves and the big box retail stores that do. When I can get a new Batman AC for $10 (with Best Buy Gamer unlocked coupon) less than 6 months after release how can they expect anyone to pay $60 after the first week? My game purchases from just the best buy deals last month looks like this.
Batman AC $10
Rage $5
Mass Effect 2 $5
Bullet Storm $5
Final Fantasy XIII-2 $15
Total $40 for 5 big budget recent AAA games

They are making too many big budget games, and thats no complaint, its just that retailers can't give each game prime space for long periods of time, and after the first week another big game is pushing to have a large section on the shelf. So the big box retailers have sales or clearance out recent games.
Even MW3 and Skyrim the biggest releases of the holiday season have gone on sale for $40 numerous times. Target does B2G1's on new games frequently. Amazon pretty much matches any other major retailers sales. Black Friday, Week After Xmas, Memorial day, 4th of July, Labor day, and 1st of Octember sales also keep a good portion of consumers from spending the full $60 for a new game. In the short term it means I (we) can get great games cheaply not too long after release, in the long term I think that the industry, specifically big budget console games, is going to go through a contraction.

I'd argue that they're also screwing themselves by trying to flood the fall and x-mas markets with all their best titles.

There's been little of anything interesting out since Jan this year, and there doesn't look to be much coming out this summer. The spring / summer lul is worse this year then the last two, and there were some pretty slim pickings then too.

Good for my backlog, but not good for the industry, since my backlog is just getting cheaper and cheaper.

I honestly don't know how the fall/xmas release even make sense anymore unless you have a 99% guaranteed blockbuster.
post #407 of 1994
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgable View Post

Games cost far more to make than ever, besides prices drop fast, SSX is $30 on Amazon right now for example. $60 isn't that much considering inflation. I remember buying Sega games for $70 in the 80s.

Which would be about $140 today. Hell I remember $80-85 cartridges. And that was along the lines of stuff you could can now get on PSN or App stores for $5.

We really have it good. And the industry is heading for a crash.

Too many AAA titles, price wars, dev and publishing costs at all time highs, ect.
post #408 of 1994
Quote:
Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

While it's true gamers do roll over what gamespot pays them into new or other used purchases, you need to keep in mind that they pay cents on the dollar compared to what they sell the games for.

They will pay you $5, then turn around and sell it for $55. $50 of value is wiped out and sent off to shareholders, and not reinvested into the gaming industry.

But that money is taken from consumers, not game publishers. For a game sold for $55 (a new release), GS generally gives $25 or more in trade value. And those values usually get bumped up through promotions and whatnot. Which means that the difference between trade value and the price of a new game (roughly $30-40) goes into the new game purchase--which goes to publishers. In fact, the lower the trade-in value on used games, the more money goes back to publishers. Also, GS's promotions end up costing them money (which also goes back to publishers).

I just think the whole "combat used game sales" motto coming from publishers (and now gamers) is bunk. The only problem is in those first couple weeks of release. After that, everyone benefits from used sales. Used sales are not a detriment to the industry. They're just a convenient boogeyman for shrinking profits in the AAA-side of the industry.
post #409 of 1994
Quote:
Originally Posted by confidenceman View Post

Used sales are not a detriment to the industry. They're just a convenient boogeyman for shrinking profits in the AAA-side of the industry.

I guess since they can't blame piracy like they used to the industry found a new whipping boy.
post #410 of 1994
So, I bet the PS4 will do 1080P48fps/3D as one of it's features.
post #411 of 1994
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mounta1n View Post

I imagine a lot of this will be decided by the success or failure of the online-pass model. I only just started trying Gamefly, but already, the vast majority of games I'd like to try require the purchase of an online pass to be able to fully appreciate the game. Even with something like NFS:The Run, where I don't particularly care about racing online, many of the vehicles can only be unlocked by doing online races. Same with SSX, need online pass.


My recommendation is move over to PC gaming. On the PC, if you can be patient, you get just about every single game for $5, $10, $15 at the most. Just depends how long your willing to wait, but if you have some patience, PC gaming can be much more affordable than doing the gamefly thing. Plus, no worries about the online pass, when you buy a game on PC, you just need the game key and that's it.
post #412 of 1994
Quote:
Originally Posted by defdog99 View Post

I hope the PS4 scraps the Blu-ray. Keep it small and cool.
Like an AppleTV size box.

I'd love that!!, I could carry it around everywhere i go,..hotels,..my friend's house,...
with a huge storage so you can keep all your games, movies, music,..
PSN store for all the services, but all the games should be able to be downloaded.
post #413 of 1994
If they were to scrap BR it would go the route of the PSP Go.
post #414 of 1994
Yeah, don't see it happening. But a 16X BR drive and HDD install options would be my request. Lets get load times down and makes experiences better. When you have a HDD, there's no need to use the disc drive besides disc checks. Let us put it on the HDD to save the mechanical disc drive.
post #415 of 1994
i want ps4 to be 100 percent digital download. i want it because it's beyond past due that preorder exclusive content is killed. every game i want i eventually learn that i'll be screwed out of content regardless of where i buy it. that practice must come to an end. digital distribution ftw.
post #416 of 1994
Quote:
Originally Posted by blklightning View Post

i want ps4 to be 100 percent digital download. i want it because it's beyond past due that preorder exclusive content is killed. every game i want i eventually learn that i'll be screwed out of content regardless of where i buy it. that practice must come to an end. digital distribution ftw.

If that's your reason for DD, I think it's ill informed. When things are that easy to send directly to the consumer I think we'll see much more free 2 play + nickel and dime, and a lot more episodic / DLC add on pack support.

While the main game might be cheaper (or free) the continued support will be marginally more expensive if you buy it all.

I think things would just get worse.

Plus, you'd then be 100% tied to buying licenses. Which means when system or network support is gone, so is your purchase if need to redownload it.
post #417 of 1994
it's kind of like that now, though, what with a lot of games having day one patches.
post #418 of 1994
Yup, but that's my point. I don't think you can put the worms back into the can once some of the big publishes got the taste in their mouths. They're going to do so until someone else large enough comes along and eats into their profits with a better model.
post #419 of 1994
Surprised (And pleased) to see some AVS users realize that once the genie is out of the bottle, it's not going back in.

Tried to get that point across a while back with things like unlock codes and such and it seemingly went over more heads than it entered.
post #420 of 1994
Quote:
Originally Posted by blklightning View Post

i want ps4 to be 100 percent digital download. i want it because it's beyond past due that preorder exclusive content is killed. every game i want i eventually learn that i'll be screwed out of content regardless of where i buy it. that practice must come to an end. digital distribution ftw.

Digital distribution won't prevent retailer-specific bonuses or preorder incentives. In fact, it could exacerbate the practice. Most retailers have begun establishing digital storefronts and since DLC/bonuses are already digital, it would be even easier to use them once we move to digital distribution. The ugly truth is that games are actually too cheap relative to their production cost, so publishers need to do something to increase revenue if consumers continue wanting bigger, faster, prettier games.

And there are even bigger issues with DD. Prices won't drop over time. There will be more subscriptions, IAPs, DLC, Online Passes, etc. And consumers will generally lose what little "ownership" we currently have over our games. And so on. It's a big mess, and it's coming soon.
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