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SUBFEST 2011-HuskerOmaha and Desertdome's Subwoofer Showdown - Page 2

post #31 of 553
10/24/11 at 10:03am
Here are the measurements for the Chase Home Theater SS18.2. Time to EQ = 6 minutes. Since the SS18.2 was the only sealed sub without its own amp it gave me a chance to try the Linkwitz Transform in JRiver. I was able to make adjustments on the fly while watching the RTA in order to get the flattest extension. The total time to EQ includes fiddling with the Linkwitz Transform. I'm sure it is at least as fast and easy to adjust as the Marchand Bassis.

For some reason REW did not remove the dip at 40 Hz. It removed it for all the other subs so I just reran the filters in REW for the measurement and now it gives me different filters and the dip is removed. At the time I thought it was because the sub was a single, but I see the dip was able to be EQ'd out somewhat from the other single subs.






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post #32 of 553
10/24/11 at 10:04am
Here are the measurements for the dual JTR Speakers Captivator Pros. Total time to EQ = 3.75 minutes.






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post #33 of 553
10/24/11 at 10:04am
Here are the measurements for the Seaton Submersive HP. Total time to EQ = 4.5 minutes.






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post #34 of 553
10/24/11 at 10:05am
Here are the measurements for the Dual CHT VS18.1's. Total time to EQ = 4 minutes.






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post #35 of 553
10/24/11 at 10:05am
Finally, the Danley DTS-10/JTR Speakers Growler measurements. Total time to EQ = 21 minutes. For the DTS-10 we used a 35 Hz low pass. The Growler had a 40 Hz high pass. We could adjust these on the fly to find the best interaction. We then matched the levels and finally had REW generate the EQ filters.






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post #36 of 553
10/24/11 at 10:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by flafonta View Post

There are some strange ratings of "1" and "4" for the Caps and Submersive on BlackHawk Down and Cloverfield. Looks like typos...

One of the guys marked every clip a 1 for BlackHawk down, because he said he didn't feel bass on any of the subs and didn't want to grade on what he didn't like/didn't hear/didn't feel. He was consitent and we double checked his score sheet when tallying to verify he didn't throw any of the scores. He consitently rated most things low across the board. Some people were generous with their scores, some people were stingy with their scores, but all seemed reasonable. We had three people double checking the scores as we transcribed them into excel - HuskerOmaha, KCNitro07, and myself. I doubt there were any typos, or we all three missed it. Greg has all the score sheets still and can verify anything as needed. We appreciate your observation and as Greg has said - he has no problem with any call outs like this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbc View Post

Those were Craig's ratings...


ha, but no.

None of the vendors voted. Craig spent most of the time upstairs hanging out watching football because he didn't want to influence the ratings in any way, and sadly not many of the attendees were there all day to vote either.

I talked to him on a couple occassions and he asked me how this or that audition went, but he never provided any counter to my impressions - just absorbed them. He told some stories of some of the meets he had held in the past. He was very very cool about that from the beginning and it was very clear he felt none of the vendors should have any involvement.
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post #37 of 553
10/24/11 at 10:21am
Threw this together for my own amusement, thought I'd post it in case someone else wanted to look at the scores another way. Props on all the data acquired guys, sounds like it was a lot of fun. Can't wait to see some more pics?

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post #38 of 553
10/24/11 at 10:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

One of the guys marked every clip a 1 for BlackHawk down, because he said he didn't feel bass on any of the subs and didn't want to grade on what he didn't like/didn't hear/didn't feel. He was consitent and we double checked his score sheet when tallying to verify he didn't throw any of the scores. He consitently rated most things low across the board. Some people were generous with their scores, some people were stingy with their scores, but all seemed reasonable. We had three people double checking the scores as we transcribed them into excel - HuskerOmaha, KCNitro07, and myself. I doubt there were any typos, or we all three missed it. Greg has all the score sheets still and can verify anything as needed. We appreciate your observation and as Greg has said - he has no problem with any call outs like this.



ha, but no.

None of the vendors voted. Craig spent most of the time upstairs hanging out watching football because he didn't want to influence the ratings in any way, and sadly not many of the attendees were there all day to vote either.

I talked to him on a couple occassions and he asked me how this or that audition went, but he never provided any counter to my impressions - just absorbed them. He told some stories of some of the meets he had held in the past. He was very very cool about that from the beginning and it was very clear he felt none of the vendors should have any involvement.

I think some of the problem with the black hawk down clip was that the bass in the track was like 10-15hz and could not be heard over the higher frequencies in the track.
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post #39 of 553
10/24/11 at 10:33am
I'm surprised the Rythmic didn't score higher for music. I've never heard one but they have a very good reputation.
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post #40 of 553
10/24/11 at 12:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

I'm surprised the Rythmic didn't score higher for music. I've never heard one but they have a very good reputation.

I believe it was a DIY build and Dr Spankenstein also mentioned there was a level problem that affected the Rythmic and was corrected after.
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post #41 of 553
10/24/11 at 12:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

I'm surprised the Rythmic didn't score higher for music. I've never heard one but they have a very good reputation.

I just finished my post on "Method of EQing." At the end I noted that we had the levels too low for the BIC, Rhythmic, and eD. This could have affected some of the scores and regrettably can't be changed now. The room was also too big for the Rythmic. For example, there were several times the driver was moving back and forth with high excursion but we couldn't hear anything. It was like the sound was being sucked up. If you moved close it sounded very good. I thought it was very articulate for music, but I think its output capability in the room hurt its score.

I didn't participate in the scoring, but I had heard the playlist more than anyone since it is pretty much all I have listened to for the past week. I also picked out the first four music selections and had a good feel of what I was looking for. I think it took a few times of listening for the participants to get a feel of what the differences were and how subs handled the musical tracks.
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post #42 of 553
10/24/11 at 1:18pm
Thread Starter 
[quote=BiGBADDABOOM;21119876]Threw this together for my own amusement, thought I'd post it in case someone else wanted to look at the scores another way. Props on all the data acquired guys, sounds like it was a lot of fun. Can't wait to see some more pics?

Thanks for posting that, but can you modify with huge letters really distinguishing what you did more, like unofficial scores, etc? I'm just assuming someone will run with those second ones and assume those are the scores and not randomly assigned 10-9-8, etc.

Technosponge and his pictures are incoming. I'd rather have him post them, though I do have copies of all saved as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

I just finished my post on "Method of EQing." At the end I noted that we had the levels too low for the BIC, Rhythmic, and eD. This could have affected some of the scores and regrettably can't be changed now. The room was also too big for the Rythmic. For example, there were several times the driver was moving back and forth with high excursion but we couldn't hear anything. It was like the sound was being sucked up. If you moved close it sounded very good. I thought it was very articulate for music, but I think its output capability in the room hurt its score.

I didn't participate in the scoring, but I had heard the playlist more than anyone since it is pretty much all I have listened to for the past week. I also picked out the first four music selections and had a good feel of what I was looking for. I think it took a few times of listening for the participants to get a feel of what the differences were and how subs handled the musical tracks.

Desertdome, where is the post saved for explaining why you used Subdudes for your Turbos but none of the other subs got them; skewing the results to move your Turbos past the F20s?
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post #43 of 553
10/24/11 at 1:24pm
I was wondering HOW long it would take for that to bubble up.

You two are like an old married couple...

Do my ears hear the distant cry of: "DO OVER!"?
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post #44 of 553
10/24/11 at 1:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post

Desertdome, where is the post saved for explaining why you used Subdudes for your Turbos but none of the other subs got them; skewing the results to move your Turbos past the F20s?

Based on some listening tests I did, the Turbos actually sounded worse in your tiny home theater when on the Subdudes. Seaton wanted me to run them that way to eliminate some of the competition for his Submersive. Since he designed the cabinet and driver, I acquiesced.
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post #45 of 553
10/24/11 at 1:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post

Thanks for posting that, but can you modify with huge letters really distinguishing what you did more, like unofficial scores, etc? I'm just assuming someone will run with those second ones and assume those are the scores and not randomly assigned 10-9-8, etc.

Technosponge and his pictures are incoming. I'd rather have him post them, though I do have copies of all saved as well.

Desertdome, where is the post saved for explaining why you used Subdudes for your Turbos but none of the other subs got them; skewing the results to move your Turbos past the F20s?

I just dropped it to relieve confusion. It was interesting to glance at rankings to see how they fell without having to shuffle them in my head. I would also believe that humans are more precise at perceiving a preference of one versus another than they would assigning a numeric value to the relative performances. So it was another way of averaging the same data. If someone wants to see that they can PM me.

I'll keep an eye out for Technosponge's pictures then; looking forward to them, thanks!

What measurable difference would a Subdude have, was that obtained? I've always seen them as a way to decouple the sub and it's vibrations from the flooring/room. If anything, there'd be a subjective performance drop due to less tactile effects reaching listeners, no?
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post #46 of 553
10/24/11 at 2:52pm
The SubMersive HP has two modes/dsp. Anyone know which one was used at the Showdown?

The below quote was taken from the Seaton Sound Forum:

Quote:


PGM SEL set to IN (program 1) = original SubMersive response: +/-3dB 19-200Hz
PGM SEL set to OUT (program 2) = secondary, extended SubMersive HP response: +/-3dB 15-200Hz.
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post #47 of 553
10/24/11 at 2:55pm
Another mode question, . The new CHT VS18.1's have a 15hz mode and a 19hz mode right? Leaving 1 slot open gives you 15hz, leaving both open gives you 19hz? If so how'd you guys have them set up? Thanks!
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post #48 of 553
10/24/11 at 2:59pm
Awesome write up!
About the DTS-10 problem, did it sound similar to this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JK7VR-LKD_A







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post #49 of 553
10/24/11 at 3:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunga99 View Post

The SubMersive HP has two modes/dsp. Anyone know which one was used at the Showdown?

The below quote was taken from the Seaton Sound Forum:

I believe it was the 15 Hz tune.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yadfgp View Post

Another mode question, . The new CHT VS18.1's have a 15hz mode and a 19hz mode right? Leaving 1 slot open gives you 15hz, leaving both open gives you 19hz? If so how'd you guys have them set up? Thanks!

We had both ports open.
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post #50 of 553
10/24/11 at 3:18pm
Here are all subs before EQ and after EQ:




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post #51 of 553
10/24/11 at 3:20pm
Curious about the identical roll-off on the sealed Chase vs the vented? VS & SS overlaid:

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post #52 of 553
10/24/11 at 3:33pm
kwarny, I enjoyed the write up you just posted. I wish I could have listened from the front row.
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post #53 of 553
10/24/11 at 3:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

kwarny, I enjoyed the write up you just posted. I wish I could have listened from the front row.

Thanks. I just wish I had a few more hours to proofread . I didn't really think the Rythmik sounded much different then it does at even lower volumes. Some say that it has a dry sound but I wouldn't really call it that. If I was girl and didn't get stuck with having to pay for an engagement ring, I would build three more boxes so I could have two push pull systems to see the difference it would make in HuskerOmaha's versus the dual CHT SS 18.1s. It just feels like I need to run an experiment to test my hypothesis haha.
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post #54 of 553
10/24/11 at 3:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiGBADDABOOM View Post

Curious about the identical roll-off on the sealed Chase vs the vented? VS & SS overlaid:

The MCCA Turbos had the same rolloff. All three setups used Dayton SA1000 amps. It could be that the amp has a built-in high pass. I hooked up these subs myself to the amps and checked to make sure the subsonic filter was off. The Turbos' amps had been modified by Sandbagger to have a high pass, but the Daytons used with the CHT subs were stock amps.

The sealed amp had the bass boost on before we applied the Linkwitz Transform in JRiver. I wonder if the boost causes the amp to rolloff earlier. I'll have to experiment with my quad dual opposed sealed that I built using the MFW-15 drivers.

We had many other amps available (Face, Lab Gruppen, Behringer, Crown) but didn't have time to try any. We had wanted to try several different amps with the CHT SS.
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post #55 of 553
10/24/11 at 4:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunga99 View Post

The SubMersive HP has two modes/dsp. Anyone know which one was used at the Showdown?

The below quote was taken from the Seaton Sound Forum:

Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

I believe it was the 15 Hz tune.

Correct. It looked good with the standard mode to the teens, and I probably would have left it there if we were not EQ'ing the system with desertdome's setup, but the 2nd DSP mode gave a nicer starting point for the EQ below 20Hz. The difference in response of the two modes is only about 3.4-3.8dB below 20Hz.
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post #56 of 553
10/24/11 at 4:31pm
I'm a little surprised the Rythmik fared slightly better in the ranking than the BIC F12. I went from BIC F12 to Rythmik F15 and the difference seems quite a bit better...not even in the same league better.
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post #57 of 553
10/24/11 at 6:38pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwarny View Post

Thanks. I just wish I had a few more hours to proofread . I didn't really think the Rythmik sounded much different then it does at even lower volumes. Some say that it has a dry sound but I wouldn't really call it that. If I was girl and didn't get stuck with having to pay for an engagement ring, I would build three more boxes so I could have two push pull systems to see the difference it would make in HuskerOmaha's versus the dual CHT SS 18.1s. It just feels like I need to run an experiment to test my hypothesis haha.

Kyle you are so confusing. Are you saying you are getting engaged? You are welcome to come over whenever and compare and we can try and measure-and then when we fail we can call Michael to come over and measure.
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post #58 of 553
10/24/11 at 6:39pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by benclement11 View Post

I'm a little surprised the Rythmik fared slightly better in the ranking than the BIC F12. I went from BIC F12 to Rythmik F15 and the difference seems quite a bit better...not even in the same league better.

1) The Rythmik was a DIY box and not ID.
2) I scored them fairly close, I'm working on posting my results and write up
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post #59 of 553
10/24/11 at 6:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post

Kyle you are so confusing. Are you saying you are getting engaged? You are welcome to come over whenever and compare and we can try and measure-and then when we fail we can call Michael to come over and measure.

That is what I am saying. All of my money is focused on the ring now so no free cash. She did state tonight that she would love to buy 3 more kits sometime after Christmas. Haha that sounds about right. I know I won't ever bring a pair of my speakers up to your place after Saturday night .
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post #60 of 553
10/24/11 at 7:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwarny View Post

That is what I am saying. All of my money is focused on the ring now so no free cash. She did state tonight that she would love to buy 3 more kits sometime after Christmas. Haha that sounds about right. I know I won't ever bring a pair of my speakers up to your place after Saturday night .

I have the same sub set up as HO, in a different room. Bring your Rythmik, I have 3 pairs of mains to choose from and you can bring our own, too. You are invited, nothing formal, just listening and fun.
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