When do the 2013 Denon's come out? Any new features we should expect? - Page 43

It actually is listed on the Denon 3313CI web spec page, although I hadn't added it to my summary list so I added it there. And yes, the HD radio has both an AM and FM tuner.

As a Denon owner i am disappointed in their new line this far. Onkyo is better for the money right now. For example in the 818 series you get audyssey XT32 calibration for msrp of 1099.00 The only Denon you can get that on is the 4311. A 2K receiver or at least 1200 from newegg.com. Onkyo has 24bit WAV and flac playback, enough power and streaming out the wazoo. I only hope Denon will WAKE UP and stop missing the mark. Hope the 4311 replacement will compare to the Onkyo upper echelon.

so disappointed that you needed to express yourself in two different threads?

From what I can see, the 818 is also missing some features, for instance I dont believe it has airplay. THe other thing I am looking for is a community around it and on AVS at least, the onkyos dont seem to be as popular...but that could be just because I started by fraternizing in the denon threads...

As of now, 4311 deals and onkyo 818 MSRP are near each other

It appears that Denon has moved them to the top edge of the front panel.
In one of the YouTube videos linked to earlier, there was a brief overhead shot where you can see them.

With the 2nd zone HDMI output, does this make the 3313 the first receiver to be able to play HDMI audio for zone two? I would assume the receiver is capable of extracting audio from that HDMI signal for zone two (in addition to passing along the full stream), although I don't see that feature specifically mentioned.

My Anthem receiver (and as far as I know, all other receivers) requires my zone 2 output to have an analog input. There are no D/A converters for zone 2, which I find HIGHLY annoying when trying to switch audio from one room to another! Not all of my devices can output analog and digital simultaneously.

If I'm wrong and Onkyo and others can now assign their D/A converts to zone 2, please tell me!

The 4311 is clearly the better AVR over the 818 IMO. I am a long time Onkyo owner (805, 885 and 886) and I just bought the 4311. I had thought about the 818 or the 3313 (as a prepro) but at the current sales prices the 4311 was an easy choice for me. So far I am very happy with the 4311.

Bill

we won't know until the manual is released but almost certainly not. This was discussed earlier in the thread. The "Zone 2 HDMI" is advertised as a MATRIX switch function, meaning it can simply pass along an HDMI input to another zone. That means there needs to be another HDMI sink (e.g. a TV or a second receiver) in the other room to receive, decode and process the HDMI feed.

there is no evidence that it will be able to take an HDMI signal and downmix and output to analog. That would require a second totally separate HDMI decoder built in, which is not the same as a matrix switch.

in short: it can take the 2nd HDMI input and just pass it along, it won't process/decode it internally.

Nope. No extraction, rather it will simply pass through the audio/video to the Zone 2 TV/AVR.


AFAIK, Denon prior year 33XX and higher AVRs are the only models that are able to convert PCM 2.0 over optical/digital coax to analog Zone 2 audio. This is no longer the case for the 3313CI as that feature has been removed with the introduction of the Zone 2 HDMI.

That is a lot of disappointment. I have to say I am perplexed why they did not include XT32 in the 3313.

I'm confused by the whole zone implementations and the limitations that we are constrained by. I have 2 places in the house where I'm considering multi zone capabilities.

1. Den with 5.1 HT + living room 2 speaker audio.
2. Bedroom 6.1 HT + 1 or 2 bathrooms (possibly).

(Basement, when finished, will be 7.1, but the AVR down there will only have to serve the 1 spot.)

I plan to have an AppleTV at each location.

I am not anticipating the sharing of audio/video between 1 & 2 - i.e. Den to bedroom or vice versa. (Is that even a possible use of zones?)

I'd like to be able to achieve some or all of the following multi-zone capabilities:

1. listen to music in multiple locations simultaneously (party mode?). I.e. same audio in den as living room (some or all speakers in primary), OR same in bedroom and bathroom. Audio (music) would be streamed from the ATV, or from the built-in radio tuners. Possibly other components if possible (?).
2. listen to music in the secondary zone w/o primary zone sound
3. listen to music in the secondary zone while TV or other HDMI input plays through some or all of the speakers in the primary.

I'd like to know which '12 or '13 Denon receivers can work to provide some or all of these features.

Thanks!

^^
Depends on whether you want the HDMI sources or network audio from the Den to also go to the Bedroom (or vice versa) as well as what sources you specifically want to pass to each additional zone.

Probably to avoid cannibalizing sales from the 4311 in the short term and the 4520 going forward. Given the existing and future models with XT32, there didn't seem to be any reason (other than the AVS rumor mill) to think that the 3313 was going to have it.

A clear sign of product line clutter. These two should have been combined into one single model. Leave everything else above that to Marantz.

If Marantz brand cannot handle that territory alone, then frankly it has no reason to exist - peddling clones of lower end Denons eg (5006/6006) is a waste of time for that brand.

You have to take note at which price point it competes at.

It's been that way for 10 years.

I disagree. There is a pretty clear differentiation between 33xx and 43xx both in features and price point. The fact that the closeout pricing of the 4311 is sort of close to the initial 3313 msrp is just a quirk of timing. At "street price" the 4311 is about 50% above the current 3312 model, and it will probably continue with the 3313 once retailers actually get stock and offer their typical discounts. When the 4311 is phased out and the 4520 takes its place (at a higher price point remember) it will be even moreso.

If there's product clutter anywhere it's in the lower level models, but Denon cleaned that up quite a bit by finally scrapping the parallel 3-digit model lineup, and arguably that's an area there is more potential for granular differences.

Why is it every time you don't get what you want from Denon, its "product line clutter"? I provided a clear differentiation between products and the rationale for it - the 3xxx and the 4xxx are the only current product lines that fit their "upper tier", so not exactly sure why two products with different feature sets constitutes clutter?

If Denon makes you dissatisfied, you can always find another brand. Maybe one with a nice GUI

That's sort of snobbish... calling the mid-line Denon's lower end w/o regard to anything below 23XX as they would then have to be non-existent because where to you go from "lower-end".. Some people don't have a couple grand laying about to buy the "higher-end" product and even if they do, choose not to for other reasons.

This has been reiterated ad nauseum. I'm perplexed why people are perplexed. If it's something you need, consider anything in the 4xxx product line. Otherwise, either live without it or look at something outside of Denon. I understand Onkyo now includes XT32 in their latest receivers at or above about $1k.

Does anyone know the specific cost Denon and other manufacturers are up against for including XT32? It may well be that this prevents this feature from being included in their mid-tier receivers.

It would be very interesting to know what the cost differential is between XT and XT32 and suspect as you seem to that it is probably fairly significant.

Interestingly the Onkyo 818 which has been the comparative for those that don't like Denon's pricing model appears to have XT 32 but not Sub EQ HT, so if the Onkyo thread on that product is correct, there is still a feature gap between that price point and Denon and Onkyo's upper tier products.

All that said, I'm completely on board with your premise - there are products out there that fit various user requirements. Find the best fit, buy it, and stop whinging about manufacturer's product feature sets.

I'd consider making a substantial reply to your post, but there are clear indications you'd not be able to process the answer, as the above statement is a fairly standard marker of intellectual capacity. So I'll save my time and just uh-huh and say you're right. Denon is right too. That must be why they are bleeding money.

Ok, I updated my original post to clarify slightly.

I would like to stream music primarily from the ATV or from the radio tuners (or other sources if possible), and the audio/video does not need to be shared between floors (floor 1 = AVR1 in den + living room speakers, floor 2=AVR in bedroom + bathroom speakers).

Thanks again.

I believe there's 2 costs (though I don't have any idea about the magnitude of either) - the licensing costs plus the costs for the DSPs for increased processing power. Those bits don't just rearrange themselves in real-time.

Are the DSPs different or more numerous between the lines with XT versus the lines with XT32?

Given only the requirements you have stated, the following options would work for you:

Den:
XX12 - 1712 or higher
XX13 - 1713 + 2CH amp or 1913 or higher

Bedroom: (Note: I'd drop the 6th channel and you can skip the 2CH amp)
XX12 - 2112CI or higher + 2CH amp for 1 bathroom (multi channel speaker selector also required when expanding beyond 1 bathroom)
XX13 - 2113CI or higher + above

Notes:
1. With the exception of the 3312CI (which can pass PCM 2.0 to Zone 2 over optical from the ATV), you would need to also purchase an optical to RCA converter between the ATV and the AVR (as only analog audio from external sources passes to the Zone 2 of other models).
2. All but the 1712 (non-networking) would be able to pass network audio to Zone 2.
3. Only the XX12 "CI" models have Party mode (dropped on all XX13 models). It would allow you to play the same internet radio station from the Den to the Bedroom (or vice versa).
4. With 3312CI or 3313CI in the bedroom, using only a 5.1 setup (instead of 6.1) and if using a single "mono" speaker in each bathroom, you could skip the 2CH amp and setup either model to pass a "mono" signal each of bathroom 1(Zone 2) and bathroom 2(Zone 3) speakers. You could also pass a different source to each of these 3 zones if you wanted.

I still thinking Denon should offer XT 32 as an optional upgrade. (as they did with the Pro version and earlier with air play.) This would cover any royalties costs and allow only interested people to buy it (My case) The final price of the receiver would end up somewhere in between the 3313 and 4520.

Maybe they will do this latter on. After the 4520 hit the market and phaseout inventory of the 4311.

Just a question. If you could´t find the 4311 with a great discount, would you pay an extra 200 for the upgrade? I would...

^^
Not sure what you mean by the "Pro Version" as there has been no such upgrade. However, even Chris K (Audyssey co-founder) has indicated that XT32 cannot simply be firmware "upgraded" to an AVR.

Yeah the owners manual for the 818 shows there is no SubEQ HT which is one of the main reasons to have XT32 in my opinion. I don't see why anyone with two subs would get the 818 over the 4311. I guess its a one up on the 3313 to have XT32 but still with no SubEQ HT it wouldn't make much of a difference to me. The 818 is off my list and Ill just keep my 3311 unless the 4311 drops some more.

Nice - an insult and an avoidance tactic - way to debate. Good to see that you consider your needs to be so significant that anyone or any manufacturer who disagrees couldn't possibly be intelligent. Since you couldn't process my post correctly, my recommendation was for YOU not to buy a Denon as they don't meet your requirement since it's unlikely they will spend millions of $ to create the "Osamede" custom receiver. Remember, you're the one out on an island complaining about minutia while the rest of us enjoy our AVR's, but who knows, perhaps Denon (or anyone else) will custom make a feature set just for you.

You may or may not have noticed, but the economy isn't so great right now. Any chance that has more to do with Denon's issues than your ridiculous assertions about their product structure or GUI? Onkyo and Pioneer are struggling as well (I'm sure it must be the lack of Osamede feature set alignment for them as well).

Personally, I can't believe that D&M isn't rushing out to recruit you as their marketing strategist...

On the other hand, they might tire of your windmill tilting very quickly.

Onkyo has a lesser gui and also are they not able to configure by webbrowser as DENON offer that option for a long time now started at the AVR-4306. Also does Onkyo lacks many configure options. tested their 5009 serie 2 weeks ago.

I would wait than and save some more money but really buy a DENON again.