When do the 2013 Denon's come out? Any new features we should expect? - Page 6

You missed one... http://www.big-georges.com/AVR4520CI.aspx

Knowing the structure of Denon's model numbering where the last two digits stand for the model year this suggests to me that the 4520 is an avr for 2020. Hmm. Big George knows something!

The 3313 looks very interesting especially if it includes XT32 at the $1099 price point. I would like to see the return of the drop down door to hide all those buttons and video inputs. While I'm at it I would also like to see a 7.1 analog input. I really do not see the need for a third HDMI output although some might find it useful.

Bill

Exactly why the 3313 shouldn't get XT32 if the 4xxx is the high-end model. Unless the 4xxx also gets faux K upscaling and Neo:X while the lower series don't, without removing functionality. OTOH, that leaves the new Onkyo 818 out there with XT32 and a lower price point than the 4311/4810 successor. That works if the Onkyo isn't Pro capable, but our types aside, it's a rarified interest. But as a drinker of that Kool-Aid, it would be a dealbreaker if I were in the market, which I'm not. Unless you are, Chris:-) (or those last Pio Susano or SC-27 holdouts)

Two actually ...

1513 ----> Picks up front HDMI
1613 ----> Picks up networking/Airplay
1713 ----> Drops back to 5.1, Zone 2 preouts
2113CI --> 4K video
2313CI --> Picks up a 2nd HDMI Out and Audyssey DSX
3313CI --> Picks up a 3rd HDMI Out and Denon Link
4520CI --> ????

The formal release of the 2012 Onkyos and the spattering of feature reports of the 2012 Denons is certainly interesting from a comparison perspective.

Rightly or wrongly, Onkyo has crammed feature after feature down the line-up, but labotomized the room correction in the 7 series, which ironically has pre-outs.

I do lament Denon's abandonment of the concealed panel on the front fascia and agree with earlier posters that most CEs have simply too many products. They should rely solely on a $250, $500, $750, $1K, and $2K model.

Funny enough, that's what Denon (more or less) did in non-US markets with the xx12 series. 1312, 1612, 1912, 2312, 3312 and nothing else. With relatively clear more features from on model to the next.

With the numbers MCode gave its clear that denon is not in a position to redesign the avp as a more than 12 channel design so its 'on hold' they hope the upgrade they probably had designed already is enough to keep it moving for a while. More than 12 channels and a 4k subsystem in a pre/pro like that is too much money for them to invest right now. Its a pity but a logical result of what MCode and others have shared about D&M.

On the positive side ill get my avp upgraded tomorrow and since its release in 2007 its doing fine for now . Maybe in 2014/2015 ill move to virtual pre/pro and its all software and network anyway and we will consider having a real box to switch and route old school.

Daniel.

PS: i fully agree with the Apple way of having very few clearly designed models but what makes them scary for any other brand now is their control of the production side the way they do that will be studied for many years to come (they play many games/tactics there).

Well if the 3313 is going to compete with 818 then its going to need XT32 in my opinion. The 4xxx series will still be an upgrade if it has pro capability, 11 channel processing, Audyssey LFC, NeoX, and maybe throw in Wifi. If the 3313 doesn't have XT32 I will have to consider the switch to Onkyo even knowing about their subpar quality control over the last few years. I love my 3311 and I am a Denon fan but my next receiver has to have XT32 and I can't afford the 4xxx series so that's my only chance. I would think it should be a cake walk for Denon below 1000$ this year because none of the Onkyos have anything better than 2EQ. That is if any consumers still care about sound quality more than apps.

mj,

I agree that for the 3313 to compete it will have to have XT32. If it doesn't then it will be a huge mistake on Denon's part IMO. If not then having D-Link and a third HDMI output is of no use to me.

Bill

^^^

unless d&m got caught with their pants down...

the onkyo feature strategy (xt32 on one model, and 2eq on everything else) is certainly intriguing... i think that's telling us something about the marketplace...

nope, i'm happy with what i've got... imo, the 4311 at it's street price is still a better unit than the new onkyo, which will only street for a few hundred less...

d&m is screwed either way here... if they dump xt32 into the 3xxx, it pretty much is the death knell for a new 4xxx (although they could keep selling the 4311, which still has it's advantages)... if they didn't (and it's too late now to dump it in), they are going to get eaten alive by onkyo at that price point...

Nah ... the 3313CI doesn't have to compete with the 818 ... every Denon model will be a better buy with the 717 and lower offering only 2EQ. Keep in mind Audyssey XT32 doesn't mean a whole lot to the vast majority of the public.

+1, for obvious reasons.....I don't plan on upgrading my 4311 unless Trinnov-like imaging is added to a successor, or 4K hits the mainstream with original content. And if it's the latter, a Radiance Mini may make more sense LOL.

Actually, if they _did_ incorporate XT32 into the 3313, they might as well do a price drop on the 4311 for MRSP to narrow the differential, and not bother rolling out a 4xxx AVR, at least until there's reason to come up with a 4311 successor that has a clear differential over the 3313. That assumes that the 3313 doesn't have assignable amps, legacy inputs (analog), or greater than 7.2 capability for 140 watts per channel. That, and the inherent bias people have toward a 'new' vs. a 'not-new' unit might be reason enough to roll out a 4xxx rather than keep the 4311 as the 2012 top of the line (assuming that the 4810 isn't sold, but that's even longer in the tooth than the 'elderly' 4311, and at an ever higher price point).

But there may be people are there that would pay $800 to get Audyssey LFC, Pro Capability, and a few features from the 100th Anniversary unit like gold plated connectors and a more 'robust' power supply, above and beyond what a 3313 might offer, just to get the greatest utility from 9.2 or 11.2.

Otherwise, that puts Onkyo at a clear advantage, and pushes Denon toward the 3313 being the flagship in the future, which would be downsizing to a sub-$1500 price point. If it's right that Onkyo is doing 2EQ for all AVR below the 818, maybe keeping the 3313 at XT, but offer XT32 as either an ala carte upgrade while having more channels and assignable amps, might be the way to go while still making the 4xxx successor be an 'upgrade'.

Edit: I see that the Big George website lists the 1713 as having XT. If that's right, it's probably even more likely the 3313 will have XT32:
http://www.big-georges.com/AVR1713.aspx

My take is (virtually all of) the market simply wants auto setup... speaker distance, level, etc. They have little interest in EQing. I noticed even the entry model Yamaha has EQ for 2012.

Not that the 3313 has to compete with the 818 per se. But many do check spec sheets and many do check AVS when buying AVRs. So if the 818 and the 3313 (w/o XT32) are in similar price ranges and unless one was partial to Denon I would think many would buy the AVR equipped with the best version of Audyssey. I know I would.

Bill

Why? The 1712 features XT.

As would I .. however, as the rest of the models feature a better version of Audyssey over the Onkyo models ... far more income from those models in total vs. 3313CI income only.

I was just looking at the link to big georges for the 3313 and it indicates an "Aluminum FP". I assume that means an aluminum face plate. Do most Denon's now have plastic face plates?

http://www.big-georges.com/AVR3313CI.aspx

Bill

Good to know - I never looked into anything less than 33xx when I considered Denon AVRs with Audyssey, so I assumed that the 1xxx series didn't have XT. But as Bill Mac pointed out, if you're a checklist person, seeing "XT32" vs. "XT" makes the unit sound like it's higher quality, especially if you're a 'set and forget' type. OTOH, "11.2 vs. 9.2" and "140 watts vs. 135 watts" may have the same impact for the layperson at Best Buy or ABT for a 3xxx or 4xxx. Got to have those powerful amps, you know.....

Not that I'd ever buy an Onkyo no matter how souped up it is due to the QC issues (for my $0.02, if you want a unit that's not going to work as properly as the competition, you might as well get the Sherwood with Trinnov to at least have a potential advantage on SQ), but I see that the 818 also offers a "Dual Core Video Engine" for ISF calibration, and for those that care, THX Select2+. On second thought, even aside from which Denon unit XT32 is in, I agree that D&M's got a battle ahead this year.

Totally agree...will be a complete shelf sitter like the 3310ci was

Problem is you have to add the 1712 and the 2112

I'm also seeing AVR-1913.

"The Denon AVR-1913 is Available April 2012 - Call 866-751-6900 for More Information
90w, 7.1ch, 6/1 HDMI, 1080p Scaler, Spotify, Adv. GUI"

He knows more ; wrong continent or Ide give him a ring for sure

+1 considering getting the 818 instead of staying denon :/

1513 ----> Picks up front HDMI
1613 ----> Picks up networking/Airplay
1713 ----> Drops back to 5.1, Zone 2 preouts
1913 ----> Picks up video chip (1080p), Spotify
2113CI --> 4K video
2313CI --> Picks up a 2nd HDMI Out and Audyssey DSX
3313CI --> Picks up a 3rd HDMI Out and Denon Link
4520CI --> ????

Odd how Big Geroge show the 3313CI as 120 watts? The current 3312CI is rated 125 watts. Maybe just a typo.

Thats the real question (818 vs 3313CI). Of course it highly dependent on Denon differanting themselves with the 3313CI.

Added supposed availability dates:

That is a good point but Onkyo has had 2EQ on the 5 and 6 series for several years and still seem to be beating Denon in sales for that price range. I don't think 95% of people who are looking at a $500 receiver will even know what Audyssey is. I think they would more impressed by the sheer number of features on something which Onkyo always has an advantage there. When you get up to $1000 price mark, I would think those are the more serious buyers who will know more about Audyssey and make their choice for sound quality which could hurt the 3313 if it doesn't have XT32. This is just a theory and I could be wrong but that's how I see it. I have seen the Onkyo 709 become one of the most recommended receivers around here and that will for sure change with the 717. I'm sure among AVS the Denons will dominate below 1000$ but that makes up a very small percentage of consumers in my guestimation.