When do the 2013 Denon's come out? Any new features we should expect? - Page 33

Get a 4311CI for $1299. That is the replacement for the 3808 and does what you need.

Perhaps in your mind, yes. However, I would wager that a large majority of owners that purchase an AVR with networking don't even use that feature and, that being the case, why pay for it if you're never going to use it? The 1712 logic was easy to comprehend, the 1713 logic not as clear.

thanks andy... i figured there was something i was missing there...

that makes 3 of us now who are curious...

batpig, we are gonna let you handle that particular little goodie... between the "normal" hdmi issues and the additional "between the keyboard and chair" issues, it's gonna be "fun" to say the least...

There is no 4313CI, the 4311CI replacement is the 4520CI.

one man's opinion.... don't sweat dl...

i'm perfectly content using hdmi to ship it from my oppo to my a100... actually, i decimate it in the oppo, simply out of habit...

i used the pioneer flavor of dl for quite some time... i don't miss it...

imo, there's many other things to be concerned about in terms of making your system "better"...

Nope that is what i hinted to before with cheap 'av' nodes and things like appleTV's with airplay. The future of multi zone is having end nodes that can receive audio/video and possibly app streams and these nodes being able (combined with sources and devices) to send/route them. But this is something people need to get used to every time i show during meetings how i or any of my co-workers can 'beam' our demo, powerpoint, video to one of our displays people are in near shock. Turn multiple nodes on for audio (sonos like) and slowly they get it.

It will take time for people to understand that having 4 zones (like on my avp i think) is not the way forward, its too tricky to get it to work at all and very few people will pay for it in one box vs adding a $150 speaker for the bathroom that also receives audio streams .

Daniel.

^^^

bingo...

depending on the time of year, i have between 4 and 6 "zones" in and around my house... only one of which is actually "connected" (wirelessly) to the "main zone" (for sirius usage)... all the rest have an airport express and some flavor of amplification... a couple have their own disk spinner as well (why i don't know, they never get used)...

a mac mini is the "main" music server... plus we stream directly from our idevices as well...

realistically, zone processing from an avr has always been a niche feature, and a headache to implement (pulling wire sucks, especially in an old house)...

What you never ran a 2 full 5.1 setups form a denon 5805, i always assumed every owner wanted that hehe..

Daniel.

^^^

LOL! nope, even i'm not that much of a masochist...

side note though... i was hooking up my rocks to my denon 5800 the other day... it's amazing how many analog jacks we used to have... TWO (!) sets of mch analog ins... gazillions of other connections... looking at that was almost as good as using viagra...

Don't forget those 13 (!) S-video connections. Amazing how much changes in ~12 years.

Lets start with the 12 series. The 1312 up to 1912 is the entry level avr's using Multeq. The 21 to 33 CI models are the mid level avr's that implement Multeq XT.

Denon in it's wisdom wanted to offer 1 entry level avr with xt. They did not want to strip the networking in the top entry level avr the 1912. The best solution for them and their customers was to choose the 1712 for the more advanced Audyssey.

It has worked out well for Denon that sold a ton of 1712 and the customer that didn't care about networking at all or have devices that do the networking for them.

@sam...

lol, yea...

i always wondered who could possibly use all those connections... it's almost like the designer was given the "final" specs for the size of the box, and he was tasked to "fill up the back panel"...

he sure did a good job of it...

completely off topic... if someone has a 5800 and knows how to flash the remote back to it's original state, could you drop me a pm? the original owner of mine bricked it...

Yeh, I bought a Denon DVD-1940CI Universal player to use with my AVR-3803. However it doesnt stream DSD or convert it to PCM. I paid $110 at the time for it so its a bit hard to want to spend $500 for another player when the formats aren't being supported in most equipment like yhey use to.

For what it is worth, I had a 5803A back panel full at one time It still wasn't enough connections...

The new house has dedicated A/V switchers which has reduced the need but certainly not eliminated it. I still have to use the cassettes and LD and phono and a few other of the old things occasionally (DVHS, as well). It is amazing how little power are consumed by the old items (particularly the ones without a standby mode).

I believe I was the designer's target customer (or one of them). Of course there was always the dreadnaught (5805) to dream about back then...

1713 on FedEx truck for delivery today purchased straight from Denon last Friday. Hopefully the Harmony 1712 codes work.

Well i also had a 5800 and it has less connections than my avp and poa so you are not impressing me i feel the 5800 was very sparse with connections *grin*. it did however have 2 full sets on external ins with analog bass control


Daniel.

PS: the POA has to be the worst in connections.. the 40 !!! speakers connections on the back always make me smile.

i feel emasculated...

my poor 5800 feels unloved, with only 2 pairs of analog in's being used, and nothing else...

@daniel, yea the back of those poa's always amused me...

I really had to think which side i want to the front in my rack, the 3 vu meters or the 40 high end connectors neatly lining up like that . Its a pity to have to put speaker cables in them it kinda destroys the look.

Daniel.

PS: i still think we are moving to a network/node based idea even if i own this one the 5808/avp types of machines they are the last of a breed and like all old tech. the last generation of a old tech is probably the best but still future less. in the context of this discussion its cheaper/more sense to think in the new model. I just own them because i can not because its logical

I do think this is the way forward eventually, but there is still a use for traditional "zones" in a receiver as well as the HDMI matrixing.

The "multiple nodes and stream everything" approach works well if you are the type who has all content centralized in a main server (HTPC) but most people still are feeding content from traditional "box in the rack" sources like cable box, DVD/BD player, PS3, etc. We are far away from market saturation of folks like Sammy2 who have a huge library of Blu-ray rips and so forth archived on a PC. That's why you see the popularity of cable/satellite companies offering whole-house PVR solutions where you can have multiple boxes sharing recorded content that you can access in any room.

The "multiple node" thing also works well if you are mostly doing audio streaming and/or are like Chris in a totally Apple ecosystem, where it can be easily handles by ATV's or AE's. That's the easiest "plug and play" solution and the appeal of the Apple products, if you've already got a house with multiple iPhones and a couple of iPads and TV's or stereos in several rooms, it's easy as pie to start beaming stuff anywhere you want.

But what about the many people who already have a pair of speakers wired on their patio, deck, den, etc. The traditional stereo audio zone 2 works just fine to play music while sipping a cocktail in the backyard. I know this is the case for me -- I have a smaller place with two speakers in the yard, already wired, so traditional zone 2 works great for me.

And as for the HDMI zone 2 matrixing, I think a more typical use case would be someone has a typical living room HT setup... You've got a 5.1 or 7.1 setup in the living room and you just added a smaller HDTV in the den or the bedroom nearby, and you want to be able to watch your Blu-ray or cable box in either room without having to get a second set of boxes for everything. The zone 2 HDMI is the perfect solution... you can put on a Blu-ray for the kids in the other room while you watch TV in the main room setup, without having to get a second Blu-ray player.

Are you sure it's not AL24 processing (which works on PCM signals but not bitstreamed audio) which is responsible for the difference you are hearing between MPCM tracks and TrueHD/DTSMA?

@batpig

I'm thinking of Zone 2 to my back yard via my new 2312ci that is coming but it doesn't have the separate switched speaker terminals that my 889 had. Can this be done?

I cannot afford the 3312 right now unless it drops to 6 clams in the next couple weeks!

Otherwise I can just use the 889 to feed that from another location.

OOPS! Sorry. I should post this in the XX12 thread but we're talking about Zone 2 here I guess.

that functionality is exactly the same on the 2312ci as it is on your 889. Not sure what you are referring to. They both have the exact same "Surr.Back/Amp Assign" speaker posts for that purpose, as well as Zone 2 RCA pre-outs for using an external amp.

+1 I agree with the above, based on my experience with my AVR A100 (4311) and DBP A100 (4010) . I posted my DL vs HDMI comparisons in the 4010 thread-DL3 offers a nice improvement for music from RBCD, SACD and DVDA but DL4 doesn't add anything I can see or hear on my gear for BluRay.

For those put off by the few joking references to $500 cables a few pages back, prior and current DL players come with a std inexpensive CAT5 (DL) cable in the box. Denon has produced an expensive "audiophile" DL cable but of course there is no reason to think that fanciness would make any audible difference whatsoever, as is the case for other digital transmission cables like optical, coax and HDMI.

As to DLHD, I was given no specifics by the Denon rep at AudioKarma, just a tease, "Oh, there's a big new development in DL...."

I purchased that $500.00 cable and did my own listening tests Vs an inexpensive CAT 5 cable:

of course I heard no difference (Denon AVP and DBP-4010UDCI) and the blue light lit with the exact same intensity with either cable: I returned the 'audiophile' cable

Good thing you did not plug it in backwards. Some of the reviews spoke of rifts in space-time when that is done. Something about hearing the sound before it is played!

The 4311 has DSD, DL4, XT32 and is Pro capable. It is reliable and available now for under $1.3K authorized. There will be no 4313. The 4520 will be more $ but may well have some new goodies like DL HD, but we have no idea if that will offer any real improvement. What are you waiting for exactly?

Ah, yes, now I remember your posting on that, thnx. IIRC I read at least one other published report noting a similar lack of positive findings.

Yeah, Pre-outs are the same. But the 889 has A/B speaker posts with a total of 9 speaker posts whereas the 2312 only has 7 speaker posts. I never used Zone 2 on my 889 but always though that with a Harmony Activity it could be made to switch to B speakers and Zone 2 so the second zone could be used without another amplifier.

With line level output you need a second amplifier for Zone 2 I think, which, for the distance to Zone 2 to the patio that is quite far, I might as well just have a separate cheap stereo receiver in that zone.. or a wireless audio streaming device.

I'm just wondering because I am going to loose two pair of speaker posts that I wasn't using over the last 3 years when I hook up my new 2312ci next week.

A/B speakers are not Zone 2. The 889 and 2312 are identical with respect to Zone 2 as I said above. Both can do Zone 2 without a separate amp if you are willing to run 5.1 in the main zone.

But if you want to do A/B speakers you can reassign the extra two amps to "front B". You "lose" two speaker posts but they aren't independently amp'd, the A and B speakers posts are just mirrors of each other. There are still 7 amps in both receivers.

That said, I am surprised, considering your recent posts, that you don't just want to stream wirelessly.