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Sub for mostly music/ What should I look at?

post #1 of 75
10/26/11 at 1:41pm
Thread Starter 
I have read the forums and it seems I should be looking at the Rythmik F12. I am primarily concerned with the quality of music. The sub will be used for HT and gaming but I would prefer it leans more toward the musical side.

Am I correct that I should be considering sealed subs?

Also I have a JBL PS-1000. A 100W 10" sub that was handed to me. Would I even notice this sub if I hooked two subs up? I figured it was best to sell it.

Is the F12 a good choice for my purpose? What else is?
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post #2 of 75
10/26/11 at 1:54pm
Rythmik has a great reputation for sound quality with music. The Rythmik is exceptionally clean.
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post #3 of 75
10/26/11 at 3:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by skidawgz View Post

I have read the forums and it seems I should be looking at the Rythmik F12. I am primarily concerned with the quality of music. The sub will be used for HT and gaming but I would prefer it leans more toward the musical side.

Am I correct that I should be considering sealed subs?

Also I have a JBL PS-1000. A 100W 10" sub that was handed to me. Would I even notice this sub if I hooked two subs up? I figured it was best to sell it.

Is the F12 a good choice for my purpose? What else is?

What is your price range and how big is your room? (LxWxH) Is it a sealed room or is it open to other areas?
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post #4 of 75
10/27/11 at 7:44am
Thread Starter 
I believe i measured the room at around 22' x 15', the TV on the long side of the room. It does open up in the rear of the room only. It is a basement with cement floors covered by industrial carpet (no padding below). Even more weird is a pocket created because the pole supports are framed in. To better visualize I will eventually draw a floorplan and take pictures. However, I won't live here forever so it is not critical to match to this room.

I think I am going to pick up a set of Bowers speakers (683 or CM) in a month. Is it possible to pick a sub that is too good for your set of speakers? My budget would probably be $<900. I listen to a bit of everything but mostly hip hop and rock, and I am especially fond of live music.
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post #5 of 75
10/27/11 at 7:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by skidawgz View Post

I believe i measured the room at around 22' x 15', the TV on the long side of the room. It does open up in the rear of the room only. It is a basement with cement floors covered by industrial carpet (no padding below). Even more weird is a pocket created because the pole supports are framed in. To better visualize I will eventually draw a floorplan and take pictures. However, I won't live here forever so it is not critical to match to this room.

I think I am going to pick up a set of Bowers speakers (683 or CM) in a month. Is it possible to pick a sub that is too good for your set of speakers? My budget would probably be $<900. I listen to a bit of everything but mostly hip hop and rock, and I am especially fond of live music.

I have a room around that size and found that dual subs worked best for me. Would selling the JBL increase your budget any? You want to get the best sub(s) your money can get you.

If not I would go with one powerful sub or two lesser expensive ones. For example, two Epik Legends or one HSU VTF-15 would be a good place to start.

If really tight on money two Emotiva Ultra 12 subs will sound great with music and perhaps games but wouldn't be my first choice for HT.
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post #6 of 75
10/27/11 at 8:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by skidawgz View Post

I believe i measured the room at around 22' x 15', the TV on the long side of the room. It does open up in the rear of the room only. It is a basement with cement floors covered by industrial carpet (no padding below). Even more weird is a pocket created because the pole supports are framed in. To better visualize I will eventually draw a floorplan and take pictures. However, I won't live here forever so it is not critical to match to this room.

I think I am going to pick up a set of Bowers speakers (683 or CM) in a month. Is it possible to pick a sub that is too good for your set of speakers? My budget would probably be $<900. I listen to a bit of everything but mostly hip hop and rock, and I am especially fond of live music.

I have a pair of the B&W 601s, and the Outlaw Audio LFM-1 EX ported sub I bought recently has integrated nicely with them for both music and HT. A Rythmik sealed sub would be even better for music with your B&Ws than the sub I have. Given that the F15 is only a little more than the F12 you might consider it because of the extra volume it can generate for HT.

And you are right. You probably wouldn't notice the JBL if you plugged it in, too. The only thing it might do is detract from the SQ (sound quality).
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post #7 of 75
10/27/11 at 8:09am
I would hold off a while on the B&W speakers and get a really competent sub solution. As noted above, a single HSU VTF-15H or dual Epik Legends would be good choices. Rythmik is at the top of the heap, but probably more than you want to spend given the size of your room.
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post #8 of 75
10/27/11 at 12:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

I would hold off a while on the B&W speakers and get a really competent sub solution. As noted above, a single HSU VTF-15H or dual Epik Legends would be good choices. Rythmik is at the top of the heap, but probably more than you want to spend given the size of your room.

+1

Dual Epik Legends are also a great choice and are close to his budget right now.

One more thing about the Rythmiks. As of a about a week or so ago (not sure if that's still true), they had been on backorder for awhile because they ran out of amps. If you want sub(s) now, you might be waiting some time for an F12 or F15.
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post #9 of 75
10/27/11 at 12:53pm
[IMG][/IMG]



This is a great Sub for Music. Blends in very nice.

Model: REL T9
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post #10 of 75
10/27/11 at 1:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lakinsdad View Post

This is a great Sub for Music. Blends in very nice.

Model: REL T9

For the higher price, will the REL T9 out perform a Rythmik F12 or an SVS SB12-NSD? Those are both 12" sealed subs.
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post #11 of 75
10/27/11 at 1:10pm
The hsu vtf 3 mk4 would be a good choice as well. It will allow you to run it in sealed or ported as well as max extension or max output. That way you have options to play with and see what sounds best in your room. I have a vtf3mk3 (extends down to 16Hz) in a room about your size but has more openings and I couldn't ask for a better sub. Hsu's HB-1 bookshelves are spectacular too. So much so that I've gone to 2.0 with music unless I REALLY crank it, then I go 2.1. Good luck!
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post #12 of 75
10/27/11 at 1:19pm
With all due respect the REL T9 is overpriced for what you get. There are some very very good subs at the $1,100 price point. Down 6 db at 28 Hz in room is not impressive. The half power point (3 db down) would be at 30Hz or even higher.

If you want something really special and are prepared to pay for it the SVS SB-13 Plus is a monster performer in a small box. It has a 1,000 watt DSP amp compared to 300 watts for the T9, a much beefier driver, and a very sturdy and attractive box. To give you an idea about build, the SVS SB-13 Plus weighs 95 pounds and the REL T9 weighs 39 pounds. It will cost about $100 more than the REL but you are getting much more including response to 23 Hz at only 3 db down.

It is also worth keeping in mind that British audio products are generally expensive for what you get. There are some great British speakers, notably B&W, however the really good B&W like the 802 are very expensive.
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post #13 of 75
10/27/11 at 1:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

For the higher price, will the REL T9 out perform a Rythmik F12 or an SVS SB12-NSD? Those are both 12" sealed subs.

If you are looking for an in your face crank it sub. The REL is not for you.

If you are looking for natural bass tones that blend in effectively and fill the room this is the sub for you.

You have to tie into your fronts. And use the sub port as well.

Keep in mind I use 2 subs though. So it filling the room may not hold true..... I am not a Sub expert by any means tho...just trying to help.
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post #14 of 75
10/27/11 at 3:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lakinsdad View Post

If you are looking for an in your face crank it sub. The REL is not for you.

If you are looking for natural bass tones that blend in effectively and fill the room this is the sub for you.

You have to tie into your fronts. And use the sub port as well.

Keep in mind I use 2 subs though. So it filling the room may not hold true..... I am not a Sub expert by any means tho...just trying to help.

I'm sure the REL is a wonderful sounding sub for music however it is hard to argue against the SB13plus at $1100. On paper the T9 seems more comparable to the $679 SB12nsd. I would love to hear a REL as its unique integration method is interesting. It would be nice to see how its stacks up against the newest sealed offerings from SVS, Rythmik, and HSU as they are also known to great with music.
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post #15 of 75
10/27/11 at 6:44pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

I would hold off a while on the B&W speakers and get a really competent sub solution. As noted above, a single HSU VTF-15H or dual Epik Legends would be good choices. Rythmik is at the top of the heap, but probably more than you want to spend given the size of your room.

I am getting a really good deal on the BW speakers, and they will be a much larger impact on my SQ over what I have. I have 5 diff speaker manufacturers in my 7.1 system. 2 are Bose speakers from 1985 and my rears are Technics.

I know a lot of you guys are huge fans of 2 sub solutions but I do not need to complete the perfect sound solution at once. I want to get a good sub, I can always buy another later.

So I have a suggestion on a REL and some have confirmed that Rythmik is a good choice. Any other suggestions? How musical are the HSUs?
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post #16 of 75
10/27/11 at 9:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kesando View Post

I'm sure the REL is a wonderful sounding sub for music however it is hard to argue against the SB13plus at $1100. On paper the T9 seems more comparable to the $679 SB12nsd. I would love to hear a REL as its unique integration method is interesting. It would be nice to see how its stacks up against the newest sealed offerings from SVS, Rythmik, and HSU as they are also known to great with music.

Someone on the Emotiva forum said the guy's at Audioholics are setting up a subwoofer face-off between the REL and the X-Ref 12. Maybe they might throw in a couple more sealed 12's.
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post #17 of 75
10/28/11 at 9:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by skidawgz View Post

So I have a suggestion on a REL and some have confirmed that Rythmik is a good choice. Any other suggestions? How musical are the HSUs?

Since you mention you plan to use your sub for HT and gaming, but want to emphasize the musicality of the sub, you should disregard the REL as a choice here. In your budget range, you should get a sub that reaches all the way down well to 20hz if you want to use it with HT. This the Rythmik can do; as spyboy pointed, the 10" REL cannot come close. In other words, the REL cannot reproduce the low end bass in bluray tracks that produces the subsonic effects.

For a ported sub, HSU's are known for their musicality. For a sub that will sound very good with music, but will also be excellent for HT, the HSU VTF-3 MK4 is going to be one of the best choices in your budget. Where the HSU does better than the Rythmik sealed subs is sheer power (volume). While that won't make much of a difference for music, it will for HT.
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post #18 of 75
10/30/11 at 2:13pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Since you mention you plan to use your sub for HT and gaming, but want to emphasize the musicality of the sub, you should disregard the REL as a choice here. In your budget range, you should get a sub that reaches all the way down well to 20hz if you want to use it with HT. This the Rythmik can do; as spyboy pointed, the 10" REL cannot come close. In other words, the REL cannot reproduce the low end bass in bluray tracks that produces the subsonic effects.

For a ported sub, HSU's are known for their musicality. For a sub that will sound very good with music, but will also be excellent for HT, the HSU VTF-3 MK4 is going to be one of the best choices in your budget. Where the HSU does better than the Rythmik sealed subs is sheer power (volume). While that won't make much of a difference for music, it will for HT.

thanks for the well explained response.
I liked everything I saw on HSU website, I will put them back on my list.

I assume a 15" would be better choice for HT as well? (over a 12")
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post #19 of 75
10/30/11 at 3:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by skidawgz View Post

thanks for the well explained response.
I liked everything I saw on HSU website, I will put them back on my list.

I assume a 15" would be better choice for HT as well? (over a 12")

Definitely. Although some 12" ported subs might have more maximum output than a 15" sealed sub. Check out the table to the right on this page where Rythmik shows that their 12" FV12 ported sub has more output than their F15.

Also, look at SHOOTOUT! Epik Empire vs HSU VTF-15H vs CHT CS18.1 vs Rythmik FV15 vs A7s-450 to get some testimonials on some of the big ~$1000 subs. Based on that review, seems like the HSU VTF-15H could be a great choice.
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post #20 of 75
10/30/11 at 5:32pm
Thread Starter 
Ok, I want to ask again. Can I buy a sub that is too good for my speakers?

I know it is possible to get one that is not good enough.
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post #21 of 75
10/30/11 at 5:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by skidawgz View Post

Ok, I want to ask again. Can I buy a sub that is too good for my speakers?

I know it is possible to get one that is not good enough.

It will only make your mains sound better.
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post #22 of 75
10/30/11 at 7:50pm
just picked the ultra 12 up....sounds great with my music.....sealed 12 inch

http://emotiva.com/ultra_sub12.shtm
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post #23 of 75
10/30/11 at 8:54pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Interestedparty View Post

just picked the ultra 12 up....sounds great with my music.....sealed 12 inch

http://emotiva.com/ultra_sub12.shtm

That sub seems hard to beat. I mean for the price, and Emotiva has free shipping. Most of the other companies charge just under $100 to ship
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post #24 of 75
10/30/11 at 9:02pm
Excuse me but if the OP isn't afraid of laying down 1000 large, then why hasn't anyone suggested the epik empire?

That will kill the little twelves (dual 15's) and it is extremely musical..

Just my 2 cents....
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post #25 of 75
10/30/11 at 9:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by skidawgz View Post

That sub seems hard to beat. I mean for the price, and Emotiva has free shipping. Most of the other companies charge just under $100 to ship

You have to look at the frequency response range. The Ultra 12 starts falling off rapidly at 30hz. So it's great at $400 for people that mainly want it for music. But if you want a sub that's also good for HT, then look at the 12" ported subs from the other ID vendors, which go much lower. They are worth the extra money.
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post #26 of 75
10/30/11 at 9:29pm
Thread Starter 
Looks like I will probably go with a HSU or Rythmik 12 or 15"
Those two companies seemed the most appealing before I made this thread, and it seems that others have confirmed it.
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post #27 of 75
10/31/11 at 6:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by skidawgz View Post

That sub seems hard to beat. I mean for the price, and Emotiva has free shipping. Most of the other companies charge just under $100 to ship

i agree....the free shipping and no tax, made this a great value. I know your budget is higher, but for music this is really a wonderful sub, price or no price.....

The others you are looking at are outstanding.....just wanted to help you make the informed decision....(plus you coud get two!)

good luck
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post #28 of 75
10/31/11 at 8:35am
The Emotiva is a great little sub for $400 if you don't have a large room, you are using it for mainly music and you don't want a sub that takes up a lot of room.

If you have $1000 to spend, and want to use it for home theater, one really should look at the larger ported subs or even the larger sealed subs. Just because the Emotiva is a good value doesn't mean it's the best match for your needs. Even though you could buy two of them for the price of the higher end subs, you still will have very limited extension which means you'll always be missing the deep bass. More and more soundtracks have significant bass at 20Hz which you can feel more than you can hear. The Emotiva starts to filter out bass below 30Hz.

The sealed Hsu ULS15, Rythmik F15 and SVS SB13 are no brainers if you want a musical sub that can do double duty as HT subs (all have enough output below 25Hz to give justice to HT material). (I omitted the Empire because I don't like its droopy non-linear response below 80Hz)

If you truly want deep bass output, one should look at the larger ported subs like the VTF15, Rythmik FV15, and maybe SVS PB12NSD.

Out of those I especially like the Rythmik because it provides excellent extension, low distortion, and a very linear response. This is one sub you will be happy with for any application whether critical listening with music, or high demand HT use. If you eventually need more output, you can add a second one.
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post #29 of 75
10/31/11 at 8:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by warpdrive View Post

The Emotiva is a great little sub for $400 if you don't have a large room, you are using it for mainly music and you don't want a sub that takes up a lot of room.

If you have $1000 to spend, and want to use it for home theater, one really should look at the larger ported subs or even the larger sealed subs. Just because the Emotiva is a good value doesn't mean it's the best match for your needs. Even though you could buy two of them for the price of the higher end subs, you still will have very limited extension which means you'll always be missing the deep bass. More and more soundtracks have significant bass at 20Hz which you can feel more than you can hear. The Emotiva starts to filter out bass below 30Hz.

The sealed Hsu ULS15, Rythmik F15 and SVS SB13 are no brainers if you want a musical sub that can do double duty as HT subs (all have enough output below 25Hz to give justice to HT material). (I omitted the Empire because I don't like its droopy non-linear response below 80Hz)

If you truly want deep bass output, one should look at the larger ported subs like the VTF15, Rythmik FV15, and maybe SVS PB12NSD.

Out of those I especially like the Rythmik because it provides excellent extension, low distortion, and a very linear response. This is one sub you will be happy with for any application whether critical listening with music, or high demand HT use. If you eventually need more output, you can add a second one.

very well said
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post #30 of 75
10/31/11 at 12:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by warpdrive View Post

The Emotiva is a great little sub for $400 if you don't have a large room, you are using it for mainly music and you don't want a sub that takes up a lot of room.

If you have $1000 to spend, and want to use it for home theater, one really should look at the larger ported subs or even the larger sealed subs. Just because the Emotiva is a good value doesn't mean it's the best match for your needs. Even though you could buy two of them for the price of the higher end subs, you still will have very limited extension which means you'll always be missing the deep bass. More and more soundtracks have significant bass at 20Hz which you can feel more than you can hear. The Emotiva starts to filter out bass below 30Hz.

The sealed Hsu ULS15, Rythmik F15 and SVS SB13 are no brainers if you want a musical sub that can do double duty as HT subs (all have enough output below 25Hz to give justice to HT material). (I omitted the Empire because I don't like its droopy non-linear response below 80Hz)

If you truly want deep bass output, one should look at the larger ported subs like the VTF15, Rythmik FV15, and maybe SVS PB12NSD.

Out of those I especially like the Rythmik because it provides excellent extension, low distortion, and a very linear response. This is one sub you will be happy with for any application whether critical listening with music, or high demand HT use. If you eventually need more output, you can add a second one.

Good stuff, especially about the Empire. I guess that in smaller sealed rooms the room gain helps. I know some guys use EQ to boost the ULF end of the spectrum. And, I know applying EQ to sealed subs can be tricky. Again, good stuff.
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