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The Official Acer H9500BD Thread - Page 5

post #121 of 4744
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimShadler View Post

2d Picture quality is not as good as the 8500UB hands down. I'm also not convinced this projector is hitting the quoted 2000 lumens. I did play some ps3 games on this and didn't notice any lag to speak of.

Oh I missed this post, Art Feierman says his review of the h9500bd will be up wednesday 11/16.
post #122 of 4744
Awesome, that should be a good read.
post #123 of 4744
Quote:
Originally Posted by subpro View Post

Oh I missed this post, Art Feierman says his review of the h9500bd will be up wednesday 11/16.

I am looking forward to this review. I saw the blog but did not see where it was going to be up tomorrow.
post #124 of 4744
Can't wait for the review.
post #125 of 4744
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikes2cents View Post

I am looking forward to this review. I saw the blog but did not see where it was going to be up tomorrow.

Well, he says the acer will likely post wed 11/16, right under the picture of the 5010. Not savy enough to post a link sry!
post #126 of 4744
Quote:
Originally Posted by subpro View Post

Well, he says the acer will likely post wed 11/16, right under the picture of the 5010. Not savy enough to post a link sry!

Hello and thanks. What I meant was I saw the blog but did not click on the link for the rest of it until I saw the previous mention of it.
post #127 of 4744
Thread Starter 
Awsome, Hopefully art can give you guys some more of the info you are looking for.
post #128 of 4744
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimShadler View Post

Awsome, Hopefully art can give you guys some more of the info you are looking for.

Well Art seems to be running way late with his review. Curiously you have nothing at all to say about the Acer? Nothing???? Really? Does the unit even power on? Just kidding but you have had this for a while now and surely you have more observations. Is it a good PJ in your opinion? What about the interpolation and the iris. Art will not have had this unit as long as you.
post #129 of 4744
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikes2cents View Post

Well Art seems to be running way late with his review. Curiously you have nothing at all to say about the Acer? Nothing???? Really? Does the unit even power on? Just kidding but you have had this for a while now and surely you have more observations. Is it a good PJ in your opinion? What about the interpolation and the iris. Art will not have had this unit as long as you.

Sigh. Sorry to let you down. Yes Art will not have had the unit as long as me. He probably will have viewed it for longer then me as I really only have watched this thing for 3-4 hours since I got it. I travel for work frequently and haven't spent much time with it.

To answer your specific questions, I noticed the iris movement was visible on high, but I couldn't detect it on medium. The frame int. looked ok, and most importantly it worked in 3d mode.
post #130 of 4744
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

There are lots of screenshots of "ghosting" taken using LCD and LCoS projectors, but I haven't seen any taken when using a DLP projector. It would be an interesting comparison -- the same scene from a movie that shows cross-talk on something like the Panny 7000 and then a shot of that same scene taken with the HD33 or another DLP projector. Strange that neither PC or Projector Reviews hasn't done this kind of screenshot comparison.

Good point, but I'm not exactly sure how to proceed, in terms of photographing crosstalk. And I barely notice it myself. Now RBE, that's something I can easily spot.

Anyone has any good ideas on how to best demonstrate crosstalk with photos, please email me, at my normal email reviewer@projectorreviews.com
-art
post #131 of 4744
Quote:
Originally Posted by presenter View Post

Good point, but I'm not exactly sure how to proceed, in terms of photographing crosstalk. And I barely notice it myself. Now RBE, that's something I can easily spot.

Anyone has any good ideas on how to best demonstrate crosstalk with photos, please email me, at my normal email reviewer@projectorreviews.com
-art

What comes to mind would be very time consuming. Video camera lens through one eye then checking frame by frame for the cross talk. Then it comes to is it fault of the projector or the glasses used.
post #132 of 4744
http://www.projectorreviews.com/blog...iew/#more-1493

For black level this thing smokes a few others! Nice. It has both DI and FI that work in 3D. Are you listening Epson? Its DLP, its 3D. it'll do Nvidia 3D etc. Looks like Acer may have another great 3D projector on its hands. I love my H5360 so maybe this is my next upgrade.
post #133 of 4744
Nice to see this kind of performance in the price range! Maybe this will make the other manufactures get off their rear-ends and do the same.

This may very well be the best all around entry level projector for 3D and 2D.
Some of the others seem geared towards mainly 3D, even though there's not much of it out yet. People still need a decent 2D image to enjoy most movies! If my memory serves me correct, this projector would be the first so called entry level model considered ultra high contrast? Very
post #134 of 4744
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

http://www.projectorreviews.com/blog...iew/#more-1493

For black level this thing smokes a few others! Nice. It has both DI and FI that work in 3D. Are you listening Epson? Its DLP, its 3D. it'll do Nvidia 3D etc. Looks like Acer may have another great 3D projector on its hands. I love my H5360 so maybe this is my next upgrade.

Wow, looks like another game changer from Acer! Love my 5360 too, and I've really become a fan of the DLP image. Art is really sensative to slow Irises as well, so this is a great sign! Very excited, and the only PJ that makes me take notice right now for my needs.
post #135 of 4744
The grayscale thing may be a big issue, unless they figure out how to fix it. 7000k grayscale would bother me a lot, but maybe not everyone. Also I'm wondering how accurate the primary and secondary colors are.
post #136 of 4744
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

The grayscale thing may be a big issue, unless they figure out how to fix it. 7000k grayscale would bother me a lot, but maybe not everyone. Also I'm wondering how accurate the primary and secondary colors are.

I saw that too and am going to flaunt my ignorance here a bit about this calibration business since I saw a post on the 5010 calibration abilities where someone said to just use a competent AVR. I have a Onkyo 809 that I have messed with minimally as far as video calibration but it supposedly has ISF calibration capability. Can I just fix this grayscale situation with the AVR and not worry about that problem? As a matter of fact should I just use my AVR for all calibration? This would make the 9500 very attractive with the contrast, blacks, FI, oh and a pair of DLP glasses to add to the ones I have already. Any thoughts on this greatly appreciated because I am eying this one hard. I suppose I could try calibrating my 8350 with the AVR but it may be for sale here very soon. Thanks and I will probably surf/post in the higher end Onkyo threads about this. Seems the PJ gurus are best to ask about this sort of thing as not all AVR owners have PJs but I bet most PJ owners have a decent AVR.
post #137 of 4744
this sounds like a great PJ from Art's review above both HD33 and Epson3010

anyone know where this can be bought from other than Newegg ?

BTW is Newegg good with return policies ?
post #138 of 4744
@Mike
We don't know enough yet from Art's review to see how bad the calibration is really off to know what can be done. Sometimes there are calibration tricks the reviewers dont try, often things in the service menu.

I am used to watching projectors at pretty much exactly D65, maybe a tiny tiny bit more saturation for watching nature or outdoor scenery, but not too much.

This Viewsonic I have until my JVC gets here has some pretty big issues with color, and it does bother me, some skin tones never quite look right. Remembering when I had the Mits hc4000, it just nailed skin tones because I was able to calibrate it to pretty much exactly d65. However, I plan to run the Viewsonic through some intense calibration or even through an HTPC acting as a VP or a dedicated Video Processor eventually, so I'm not too worried about it.

There are ways to get around a projector that won't quite calibrate right, but it is not always easy unless you spend $700+, but with an HTPC you can possibly do it cheaper, but I've never tried using software on an HTPC to do it. Problem with the HTPC method is you'd have to run everything off the HTPC to benefit, so the video processor is better.
post #139 of 4744
Quote:
Originally Posted by presenter View Post

Good point, but I'm not exactly sure how to proceed, in terms of photographing crosstalk. And I barely notice it myself. Now RBE, that's something I can easily spot.

Anyone has any good ideas on how to best demonstrate crosstalk with photos, please email me, at my normal email reviewer@projectorreviews.com
-art

Its quite easy Art to take pictures of ghosting, that is if you see it in the first place....just pause the movie where you see ghosting/crosstalk and put one side of the glasses in front of your camera and take a picture.

check these out for more info
http://hifi-writer.com/wpblog/?p=1778
http://www.digitalversus.com/tv-tele...9807/test.html
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post19558722
post #140 of 4744
Coderguy, that is good info but I am specifically interested in whether I can use my AVR to compensate for this grayscale and if I ought to just use that for my calibration. I think I am going to play with it over the TG Holiday on my 8350 and see what it can do. I thought surely someone here has done it. I have a HTPC but rarely use that with the PJ. At for the present time. Guess I need to hit up the calibration section.
post #141 of 4744
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

The grayscale thing may be a big issue, unless they figure out how to fix it. 7000k grayscale would bother me a lot, but maybe not everyone. Also I'm wondering how accurate the primary and secondary colors are.

If accuracy is so important than why is everyone accepting inaccurate grayscale for 3D and exclaiming how great their 3D looks! Filters used when filming often skew the colours and everyone is OK with that because its "artistic"? The more accurate the better, but if it isn't perfect it's not a deal killer for me, particularly for 3D. Many 3D projectors give up some accuracy for a brighter 3D image and most viewers would take the brighter image (what's the point of an accurate image if you can't make out anything on the screen?). 7000K grayscale won't bother me. Ghosting, however would.

It wouldn't surprise if the Acer smokes the Epson 5010 in 3D black levels since the DI on the Acer works and the DI on the Epson doesn't (for 3D).
post #142 of 4744
@Mike
I don't think your AVR is going to help, you need specific controls from a video processor or that are built into the projector. With the limited info we have so far, it sounds like there may be some issues with the Acer post-calibration that cannot be calibrated around, but I guess we'll find out soon enough. You will also need a colorimeter or spectrophotometer to calibrate with. The Eye One Display LT/2 is the cheapest one I know of, about $120. The higher-end ones will be more accurate, but cost upwards of $400+ generally.

@Deja Vu
I am not saying the Acer won't be better, wait for Art's full review though. It sounds like a really good deal, I am just pointing out one potential issue Art mentioned. I would generally take a DLP over an LCD if all else is equal. It just depends what all is off in the accuracy. Some people are more bothered than others, for 3D stuff you're more focused on the dimensionality of it then the colors, but the closer you can get the better, 2D or 3D.

The main thing inaccurate settings messes with is skin tones. Once you get used to a projector like a Mits hc4000 which nails skin tones, you'll just be more sensitive to it. The best way I can describe how important color is with skin tones is that it makes the movie look more realistic, it makes you feel like you are looking through a window. When you lose that color accuracy, it takes away from the experience and sometimes it feels like you are watching a poor reproduction rather than looking throw a window.

I think a lot of the filters used in movies ruin the movie, but the good artistic intent of a filter is based on a variation of color from a proper calibration, so vary that a bit more with a poor calibration and add a filter and it looks even worse, hence you are going away from the intent regardless if the movie used a filter or not. The majority of movies do not use filters that greatly affect the overall color in most scenes, as many filters are used to increase contrast or change the overall look of a scene. Some movies do use a poor choice in color modification, but many do not. So it still matters even if movies use different effects and filters.
post #143 of 4744
So everyone here thinks colour temperature is simply about calibrating to 6500K?

http://www.cybercollege.com/tvp028.htm

Most video sources in the U.S. are set to 7100K and 9300K (too cool for me) in Japan. Natural sunlight is lower (warmer) than 6500K!

With respect to skin tones -- who says 6500K is accurate? You'd need the person there in the room with you to compare and for sure your room light wouldn't be 6500K so that person's skin would look different than the video skin tone. Colour temperature changes in every scene in real world settings and standardizing it simply helps make the changes consistent scene to scene whether its 6500K or 7100K or 9300K and some scenes have to be colour corrected because the changes are too dramatic with respect to previous scenes. Our brains in the real world are fed with the constantly varying information from our eyes and we adapt and hardly notice. If some Hollywood video guru now decides that 6000K is a more accurate colour temperature does 6500K now ruin the video experience?
post #144 of 4744
I suggest to wait on what Art says about the overall look of the color after calibration.

We also don't know how accurate the primary and secondary color spaces are within Rec709, so of course I am not saying gray scale is the only thing that matters. However, yes it is better to have a color neutral gray scale calibrated. Some people may prefer a higher saturation, but you still need to get the basis of the calibration at Rec 709 as well as the gray scale neutral before increasing the vividness of the image. Then if you want it to look more vivid, you can add saturation later. You can't use random values when calibrating the base calibration.

I don't agree that we cannot notice, having a well calibrated projector is a big step in the experience, and we do notice. People that have never watched a very accurate color display may not notice as much, but most can notice. The overwhelming majority of content is going to look better with a calibration.

I suggest reading this article on this before posting information which might confuse others about calibration:
http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10457
post #145 of 4744
In the "real world" how often do we stop and say, "OMG the colour temperature just changed from 3500K to 7200K?"

I'm not disagreeing with you about a standardized colour temperature and accurate grayscale for video - without it video would look very poor. For me, 500K is not that dramatic. Ghosting in 3D is more problematic. Many people don't even notice "ghosting" in 3D until it is really "in your face." For others any visible amount ruins the experience. Everything seems to be a trade-off and if you find something you really like it's usually too expensive. For under $2,000 I may well be prepared to live with 7000K if there's no "ghosting". Will I even get 7000K with 3D glasses on? Maybe it'll be closer to 6500K with the glasses on.

I've got 2D covered for now. It's 3D I'm interested in. I'm tempted to live with 720p 3D for another year. Things seem to have improved for 3D over last year's products so maybe another improvement next year will be enough for me to jump in. Everytime I think I've found my new 3D 1080p projector there's something about it that makes me think twice. I thought the Mits 7800 was going to be the one, but it may have some issues I can't live with -- placement, poor contrast and so on -- I'll wait for the professional reviews. I want more contrast than the Optoma H33 offers or the Epson 3010. Both the Epson and Panasonic have minor "ghosting" issues. The 5010 may not have the black level in 3D and if it "ghosts" its off the list. Is the new Sony 9500 "ghost-free"? What about the new JVCs?" Probably not. Now what? Maybe the Benq W7000.
post #146 of 4744
7k doesn't mean anything by itself, other than it means they couldn't get the gray scale neutral against the parameters that exist, but that doesn't really show you anything unless you knew the parameters that 7k fell within. It depends on all the other values of calibration to how much this will affect it.

I am only pointing this out as important because a lot of MFR's have messed up the calibration ability each year.

Benq's do usually calibrate very well post-calibration, and I imagine the w7000 will be no exception, but many BENQ's OTB color isn't that great so for people that are not going to calibrate, the Benq's aren't even always the best solution.

The best sub $2000 projector that starts OTB very nicely and also calibrates nicely as well is the Mitsubishi hc4000. It is the most accurate OTB of almost all of them, sometimes the Red and Green are off a bit OTB and the projector is a bit warm, but not that far and even that starts falling back into place after some wear on the lamp.
post #147 of 4744
I've been waiting for a reasonable priced DLP PJ with DynamicBlack to come out for a long time, never thought I would see one below 3K, and 3D on top of that!

I'm curious about how skintones look in Arts review, because if he's happy with them, then I won't really care about grayscale (I know they are inter-related, but Art is picky about skintones so I'm curious if this Acer can still manage it).

DLP is superior to LCD and LCOS in all the areas that matter to me. Motion resolution is perfect, no need for FI or other enhancement. Color never degrades, no dust blobs. And Acer has shown itself to use good quality lamps that are very cheap to buy.

I'm awaiting Art's review very much. I know we can't expect the world for 1.6K, but still if it can get most things right, I'll be quite happy.
post #148 of 4744
The review has been posted guys http://www.projectorreviews.com/acer/h9500bd/index.php . OMG it destroys the 3010 in contrast easily! Seems a few clicks a head of the Optoma hd33 as well.
Acer H9500BD

Epson 3010

Optoma HD33
post #149 of 4744
I think Art got a bit of a shock just like I did when I fired up the Acer H5360 for 3D. The first thing I said was, "What the hell?" It was a hard lesson for me having spent tens of thousands on AV equipment over the years, when a basically $500 3D 720p projector, that I bought just to test the 3D waters, produced bright (2.8 gain screen) ghost free, flicker free 3D images with satisfying contrast and black levels with good shadow detail (glasses on) -- OMG! It made me rethink the expression "value for your money."

I'll probably buy this one simply because I love the H5360 and the 9500 is Nvidia compatible and has FI and DI that work in 3D. I don't expect it to be a "great" projector, but if its anything like the H5360 it should be amazing for the money.

Art's pictures of the skin tones are more than acceptable to me -- just give me more 3D content. I love watching movies more than test patterns.

And yes, the black levels and contrast look much better than its competition (in the pictures above).

One note: brilliant colour on the H5360 is too much for me in 2D mode, but really helps in 3D mode to add much needed saturation to the colours with the light loss. For me this is a 3D only projector since I have something I really like for 2D.

If this is only a "home entertainment" projector and not a home theatre projector then what are last year's much more expensive JVCs and Sonys when in 3D mode with less brightness and lots of ghosting? Maybe the term "presentation projectors" applies to them!
post #150 of 4744
I watch all my movies through my HTPC and I can adjust grey scale with it no issue and doubt I will notice/care much gaming PS3 or 360 with out the grey scale.
Think I found my projector, now for them good sales to pop up.
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