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Official Sony VPL-VW95ES Owners Thread - Page 94

post #2791 of 3433
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Dave View Post

Setting it lower means you're giving up contrast for the 99.99% of the time there's no info above 235. And frankly, there shouldn't be info there, and it offends me as a perfectionist that they would bother to encode that way.

Exactly! This comes up over and over on AVS. There are some that feel you should not crush at 235. Others like myself feel that it is a complete waste of not only lumens but more importantly contrast like you said.

I think there is only about a dozen or so titles that are known to have info about 235, and even in those it is only in select scenes. Does it make sense to waste contrast and lumens for that extremely rare case (I'd venture to say it has a lot more than two 9s after the decimal place you quoted) in which a scene had WTW, and even in that case you may have a little crush for a few seconds and that's it. No way, IMO.
post #2792 of 3433
Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

What do you have the 95 at for 3D brightness?

Sorted now, had it at full brightness but lowered to number 3 and working now, thanks
post #2793 of 3433
Quote:
Originally Posted by abs View Post

Sorted now, had it at full brightness but lowered to number 3 and working now, thanks

Perfect. Sort of. That's why I am not a fan of Xpand anymore. Their misleading firmware updates and delay after delay were enough. Plus their glasses are not nearly as comfortable as the Monsters!
post #2794 of 3433
Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

Perfect. Sort of. That's why I am not a fan of Xpand anymore. Their misleading firmware updates and delay after delay were enough. Plus their glasses are not nearly as comfortable as the Monsters!

would you say the monsters are better than the sony glasses in terms of comfort and brightness etc. if so, i may sell the xpands (4 pairs) and get the monster instead. can the monster glasses work alongside the sony glasses?
post #2795 of 3433
Hi,
Dave,you can elaborate in more detail what i have to do to make a good gamma adjustments on my 95ES?or to point one tutorial about that (ID3)
I tryed last night but without success.
On the graphs i didn't understand what i have to do to adjust 10,20,30% gamma.....
I don't understand the value 10.23 ,represent the value that i have to obtain on each gamma step?where i can follow the step on the graphs?
Maybe it's me,or is the language barrier,but i want to calibrate by myself this projector(i have the probe,chromapure.....everything in place),only my knowledge are not.
Thanks anyway for your support.
post #2796 of 3433
Does the firmware update on the monster glasses provide any benefit? I've never loaded the software on my laptop or updated the firmware, or attempted to fine tune other than in the VW95 3d adjustment menu. To me, they look pretty much the same as the Sony glasses.
post #2797 of 3433
abs, I think the monsters are a bit smaller and lighter than the sony glasses, but I wear regular glasses, and think that the Sonys fit over my normal glasses slightly better, going over and around rather than just in front. Monsters are RF, a plus. For non-glasses wearers, I think the Monsters would be more comfy. Kids actually like the smaller, cheaper sony ps3 glasses best of all.
post #2798 of 3433
When you guys are setting your contrast control higher - 90ish, are you also taking into consideration that you might be clipping one or more of the primary colours. I think before you just go cranking it up you should check the clipping points. If you start clipping then you will lose gradations in which ever colour is clipping. Just my 2cents.
post #2799 of 3433
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

Not sure about that pattern. Try using the Contrast pattern on the AVS HD 709 calibration disc. How high can you take contrast before you start to lose the 234 blinking bar? And at that point do you still have enough red at 100%? If so that's your ideal setting (my guess is you will find that to be 89).

I used the S&M disk that has that pattern. I can go as high as 96 without loosing 234.


Quote:
Originally Posted by d.j. View Post

What are the RGB gain and Bias values ?

And what mode is the iris ?


dj


I do not recall where I set the RGB. Iris is off.
post #2800 of 3433
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Dave View Post

Setting it lower means you're giving up contrast for the 99.99% of the time there's no info above 235. And frankly, there shouldn't be info there, and it offends me as a perfectionist that they would bother to encode that way.


As you sure know, it is made like that, because when they made the video standard, they where dependent on the CRT technology, who isnt good at holding black and white level with different APL.

Not quite sure about the 99,99% anyway


dj
post #2801 of 3433
Quote:


Enter, Enter, Left, Enter

Is there anything that can be tuned / is worth tuning in the service menu?
post #2802 of 3433
Quote:
Originally Posted by maximus74 View Post

Hi,
Dave,you can elaborate in more detail what i have to do to make a good gamma adjustments on my 95ES?or to point one tutorial about that (ID3)
I tryed last night but without success.
On the graphs i didn't understand what i have to do to adjust 10,20,30% gamma.....
I don't understand the value 10.23 ,represent the value that i have to obtain on each gamma step?where i can follow the step on the graphs?
Maybe it's me,or is the language barrier,but i want to calibrate by myself this projector(i have the probe,chromapure.....everything in place),only my knowledge are not.
Thanks anyway for your support.

There are two ways to start:
a) Pick a gamma that's close to where you want to start (like Gamma 4), or
b) Pick a crappy gamma and reset the value to a straight line. Then, using the course adjustment, grab the middle of the bar, and bend it down by maybe one grid.

Make sure you've set your offsets all to 0 in your colour profile. You have no need for this adjustment because you'll be balancing out the colours via the gamma graph.

Then we start:
  1. Measure at 100% and balance the colour using the GAIN controls
  2. Do a complete gamma measurement
  3. Analyse the results, and see where your gamma is too high or too low
  4. If your gamma is too high (numerically) at a given value, then you're adjusting the curve up at that point.
  5. If your gamma is too low (numerically) at a given value, then you're adjusting the curve down at that point.

Let's pick say the gamma at 30% and assume it's 2.1 and you want 2.2. To get the gamma adjusted, you use the "fine" controls, and set to adjust "white", probably using the 7-point control. The spot you look for on the graph is at 30 x 10.23, so just over 300. Look for the control point on the line that is nearest 300, and you want to be pulling it downward by maybe half a grid or so for a bigger adjustment, and much less so for smaller adjustments. You'll have to play with it a bit to see how things get affected.

You keep doing this for all the points you want to adjust, and as you go, you'll probably want to go in and smooth the graph out a bit in between the points you've adjusted. LIke between your 10% adjustment and your 20% adjustment you may have a peak or a valley - smooth that out to match with your 10% and 20% settings.

Then you go back to step 1, measure, and keep going until the gamma curve is what you want it to be.

Once the curve is quite accurate to what you want, then you go through and balance the colours at each setting. This is where you want your real-time updating turned on.

Put up a 10% grey, and look at your calibration software's results for what it's putting out. Let's say it's reading 120% in red. Choose to adjust "red" from the ID3 window, go to the 10% part of the graph (around 100), and start pulling the curve down a bit at a time. With the real time update, you'll see the next reading and adjust accordingly, until the colours are all balanced. Repeat all the way up the scale to 90%. Remeasure again, and keep tweaking. You only want to adjust red and blue this way, centering them around green. Adjusting green has a much bigger impact on your gamma, and then you'll have to reset the white curve again.

Once the 10%'s are good, you can smooth out the curves, and then go back in on the 5% scale if you like.

Once done, this should give you the exact gamma you want and almost perfect colour balance throught the entire range.

I've written this very quickly as I'm just headed out of the office, so hopefully I didn't skip a step or two. If anyone notices errors or omissions, please let me know and I'll edit once I get home.
post #2803 of 3433
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kottan View Post

Is there anything that can be tuned / is worth tuning in the service menu?

Iris Open Reg / Iris Close Reg settings

Much discussion about this earlier in this thread and in the HW30 thread.

Panel drivers may also prove useful, but not much has been done in this regard on the 95's yet.
post #2804 of 3433
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Dave View Post

There are two ways to start:
a) Pick a gamma that's close to where you want to start (like Gamma 4), or
b) Pick a crappy gamma and reset the value to a straight line. Then, using the course adjustment, grab the middle of the bar, and bend it down by maybe one grid.

Make sure you've set your offsets all to 0 in your colour profile. You have no need for this adjustment because you'll be balancing out the colours via the gamma graph.

Then we start:
  1. Measure at 100% and balance the colour using the GAIN controls
  2. Do a complete gamma measurement
  3. Analyse the results, and see where your gamma is too high or too low
  4. If your gamma is too high (numerically) at a given value, then you're adjusting the curve up at that point.
  5. If your gamma is too low (numerically) at a given value, then you're adjusting the curve down at that point.

Let's pick say the gamma at 30% and assume it's 2.1 and you want 2.2. To get the gamma adjusted, you use the "fine" controls, and set to adjust "white", probably using the 7-point control. The spot you look for on the graph is at 30 x 10.23, so just over 300. Look for the control point on the line that is nearest 300, and you want to be pulling it downward by maybe half a grid or so for a bigger adjustment, and much less so for smaller adjustments. You'll have to play with it a bit to see how things get affected.

You keep doing this for all the points you want to adjust, and as you go, you'll probably want to go in and smooth the graph out a bit in between the points you've adjusted. LIke between your 10% adjustment and your 20% adjustment you may have a peak or a valley - smooth that out to match with your 10% and 20% settings.

Then you go back to step 1, measure, and keep going until the gamma curve is what you want it to be.

Once the curve is quite accurate to what you want, then you go through and balance the colours at each setting. This is where you want your real-time updating turned on.

Put up a 10% grey, and look at your calibration software's results for what it's putting out. Let's say it's reading 120% in red. Choose to adjust "red" from the ID3 window, go to the 10% part of the graph (around 100), and start pulling the curve down a bit at a time. With the real time update, you'll see the next reading and adjust accordingly, until the colours are all balanced. Repeat all the way up the scale to 90%. Remeasure again, and keep tweaking. You only want to adjust red and blue this way, centering them around green. Adjusting green has a much bigger impact on your gamma, and then you'll have to reset the white curve again.

Once the 10%'s are good, you can smooth out the curves, and then go back in on the 5% scale if you like.

Once done, this should give you the exact gamma you want and almost perfect colour balance throught the entire range.

I've written this very quickly as I'm just headed out of the office, so hopefully I didn't skip a step or two. If anyone notices errors or omissions, please let me know and I'll edit once I get home.

Hi,Dave
Thanks a lot for this tips,i will try your suggestions for sure.
post #2805 of 3433
Hello
For 2D I calibrated my VW95 myself with calman and the C6 meter. I'm very happy with the picture, there's nothing to complain. I'm using the color space 'Normal' and because it's so close to the norm i didn't change anything there.

But now I want to calibrate the 3D mode. Which color space is a good starting point to calibrate the colors behind the glasses? What else do I have to watch for to accomplish a good result?

Would be glad for your recommodations....
post #2806 of 3433
Quote:
Originally Posted by RioBar4U View Post

Hello
For 2D I calibrated my VW95 myself with calman and the C6 meter. I'm very happy with the picture, there's nothing to complain. I'm using the color space 'Normal' and because it's so close to the norm i didn't change anything there.

But now I want to calibrate the 3D mode. Which color space is a good starting point to calibrate the colors behind the glasses? What else do I have to watch for to accomplish a good result?

Would be glad for your recommodations....

Hi,
How good is your gamma without using ID3 from Sony?
In my case it need some adjustments to be linear across the range.10-100%
post #2807 of 3433
I just had a new projector 6-blink shutdown at 292 hours (which makes it the fourth). Turned it on immediately with remote since everything dies, also the fan). Seems this thing happens every other 100 hours or so. The previous one occured at about 200 hours. Since the last time, I bypassed the HDMI-switch, connecting the HDMI directly to the Oppo BDP-93EU and I also replaced the power cable. So this is not an HDMI related issue like the 12-blink shutdown, this can happen at any time during viewing. Yesterday it occured when the projector had been runnning for about 4 hours.

I took the projector down, removed the lamp and re-inserted. Checked the filter which was clinically clean. This is not heat related. If this happens one more time I am going to send it for service (Europe doesnt seem to have the swap-out Prime Support agreement, and it also can not be upgraded to include any swap-out). It must be sent to Holland (or France). Sony already sent me the box, but I told them I wanted to try a few things first.
post #2808 of 3433
Quote:
Originally Posted by maximus74 View Post

Hi,
How good is your gamma without using ID3 from Sony?
In my case it need some adjustments to be linear across the range.10-100%

I use Gamma 4 with Auto Iris 1 and Gamma is about 2.24
post #2809 of 3433
Hi,
Mine to is good with gamma off,also with gamma4,but it need a small adjustments at 10,30,40,50,100% to be perfect across the range.
To have a perfect gamma i think is better to use ID3 from Sony,like Dave suggested.
post #2810 of 3433
I posted the gamma charts fro the HW30 here.

Has anyone posted them for the 95? I'd like to see if they default to the same or different.

Also, Image Director only allows access to the first 6 gamma tables on the HW30 (even though there are 8). What does it allow access to on the 95?

... Altan
post #2811 of 3433
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drem View Post

I just had a new projector 6-blink shutdown at 292 hours (which makes it the fourth). Turned it on immediately with remote since everything dies, also the fan). Seems this thing happens every other 100 hours or so. The previous one occured at about 200 hours. Since the last time, I bypassed the HDMI-switch, connecting the HDMI directly to the Oppo BDP-93EU and I also replaced the power cable. So this is not an HDMI related issue like the 12-blink shutdown, this can happen at any time during viewing. Yesterday it occured when the projector had been runnning for about 4 hours.

I took the projector down, removed the lamp and re-inserted. Checked the filter which was clinically clean. This is not heat related. If this happens one more time I am going to send it for service (Europe doesnt seem to have the swap-out Prime Support agreement, and it also can not be upgraded to include any swap-out). It must be sent to Holland (or France). Sony already sent me the box, but I told them I wanted to try a few things first.

You must be careful to turn the projector on right after the shutdown as this is torture for the lamp, it is actually much better to let it cool without the fan blowing. The fan blowing is just for the surrounding electronics not for the lamp, when you turn on a really warm (just after shutdown) UHP lamp it can blow up and if it does not this really cuts down on the lamps life.
post #2812 of 3433
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post

You must be careful to turn the projector on right after the shutdown as this is torture for the lamp, it is actually much better to let it cool without the fan blowing. The fan blowing is just for the surrounding electronics not for the lamp, when you turn on a really warm (just after shutdown) UHP lamp it can blow up and if it does not this really cuts down on the lamps life.

Maybe its better if it blows up, then they would have to give me a completely new projector. The support actually said the problem would be hard to replicate, indicating that nothing could be done about this..

I'm a bit frustrated with Sonys response to this issue. I tried to upgrade my agreement to include a swap-out unit. Impossible to do in this region they say. They want me to send it a couple of hundred miles to a service center so that they can have a look at it, saying it will be hard tp replicate the issue. Not very reassuring for me as a customer, and on a brand new hi-end projector. I tried getting a new one at the dealer too, but they say I have to deal with Sony.
post #2813 of 3433
Gamma Curves from ID3:

Gamma 1:


Gamma 2:


Gamma 3:


Gamma 4:


Gamma 5:


Gamma 6:


Gamma off is perfectly straight.


My current gamma:


And showing the 63 adjustment points available per colour:



Apologies for the size, but I thought it would be easier to see the differences. Again, with Image Director 3, you will only see Gamma 1 to 6 plus OFF.

If these pics are annoyingly large, let me know and I will switch to smaller ones. If I can get Photoshop here in the next couple days (currently on order), maybe I can find a way to combine the six defaults and show them all on one graph. Or maybe some keener out there will do this on their own!
post #2814 of 3433
Thanks Dave for this post.
post #2815 of 3433
With gamma off it is not possible to make adjustments with ID3?
post #2816 of 3433
I never tried. I made the gamma I like on Gamma 1, and ended it there for now.

From these graphs of the curves that ID3 can see, you can see that in only Gamma 4 provides a more aggressive gamma than Gamma Off. For me, Gamma 4 was close to what I like, so I ended up with a curve that was close to that result. Mine is slightly more aggressive than Gamma 4, with a bit of a boost low down (mostly around 5%), and then just colour balanced.

Mine is weak on red as the curve shows, and to balance 100% I was pulling down both blue and green, so the next round of experimenting might be with the panel drivers to see if I can push a bit more red without negative effects.
post #2817 of 3433
If red in your gamma is down how is your grayscale, more than 6500K?
You have balanced red by pulling down B and G?It is Ok in this way?
post #2818 of 3433
Yep, this is how you want to do it.

Balancing with a gamma tool like this gives an INCREDIBLY PRECISE 6500k (or whatever other temperature you may want). I am very impressed with this software.

My colour temperature measures well within 50 degrees the whole way up, with most points much more precise than that. Fixing with the gamma curve allows you to be very exact with your greyscale.

I pulled the red up relative to green, and the blue down just a bit in several spots, and it hits almost dead on 6500 at every 5% gradient (hard to be too exact at 5% though). I move red and blue to balance around green because moving green has a big impact on the gamma.
post #2819 of 3433
Thanks Dave
post #2820 of 3433
Dave - thanks for posting those charts. I think it is rather remarkable that Sony provides 63 points for customization along the curve. That is three times the number of tunable points than the 21 one gets from using the Radiance or what I had with the JVC custom gamma controls. I wonder whether these additional points really can make a difference or whether it is enough to have "just" the 21 points at 5% steps.
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