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KC High End Subwoofer Blind Audition Interest Thread - Page 9

post #241 of 386
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

While I'll be at CES till Friday afternoon and can't say yet if attending is in the cards, I wanted to make a quick suggestion as I haven't yet seen it mentioned what the setup/EQ process will be for the comparisons. While going through the demo material and you have multiple sets of ears, I'd also do a quick trial with whatever EQ process you intend to use for the comparison... Listen to what you have now with a couple demo cuts, run through the EQ process as you plan to do and listen for differences, then do it once more to see how similar the results are both with the subwoofer and main speaker sound. I'll go on record again in stating that re-running Audyssey on the speakers for each subwoofer adds a major variable that requires the microphone placements to be exactly the same for each session as well as a bit of luck.

Mark,

Here's what I was thinking -- (but I'm still open to any suggestions or modifications!)... Run Audyssey between subs and use a tripod with taped spots on the floor showing exact placement for every measurement. I can run up to eight positions with my calibration. If the number of attendees is high (which it appears it will be) I will likely use folding chairs/kitchen chairs rather than my four recliners and have taped spots on the floor for each of the chair leg positions too. Put the subs in the back of the room behind a blind I'm making, and the subs up front will be behind blinds on both sides of the projector screen. Everybody will have to go upstairs and be quiet during the Audyssey setup which will be the most difficult part I'm quite sure!

Otherwise DesertDome is intending on coming and has that fancy pants JRiver software that he used in Omaha. If he's up for the task we could do a similar set of EQ setups on each sub in that manner he preformed in October, but that may be more trouble and stress for him?...

We can get max SPL peak readings on the omnimic as an overall note for each sub (with these high class subs I don't expect it will vary much) and nobody will have to monitor the SPL meter readings live which is also a frustrating task.

Before the meet and starting tonight I will be grabbing omnimic readings of my room with Audyssey off, and on to show what my room does between the two. I'm playing with the caps in 15hz tune and 20hz tune so I can run it both ways and show all the results with the omnimic and thus attendees can have a pretty good idea of how my room is affected by Audysssey that way - we can also see how consistant it is.


As host I'll not be participating in the blind auditions but rather setup/teardown/ and measurements between subs. For each sub setup we'll take and save omnimic FR graphs --- obviously only shown to the attendees post meet since we are having the audience judge SQ and preformance blind to what is actually playing. I'll likely need another volunteer or two to help with this process and a couple of guys said they would be willing to do so if needed - any absolute volunteers at this time? You'll lose some of the fun in blind listening, but for those who just want to hear this awesome lineup and aren't necessarily in the market to purchase new subs it's not that big a deal.

For me - I do believe I like ported sound best --- a year ago I didn't know which I liked better ported or sealed, but I think I know now after a couple meets in 2011 I've 100 of the time preferred the ported sound in equal class'ed subs - with this in mind I have one of the best ported subs commercially available in the Captivator pair, and so I can comfortably forgoe the blind audition judging and just enjoy hearing what other's experience!

Suggestions?
post #242 of 386
Thread Starter 
Playing around with Audyssey everything looks cool until I disabled Dynamic EQ, when I turned it back on my graph didn't look the same. I'll have to try this again to verify.

When I just changed the crossovers to 100hz for all tower speakers nothing noticably changed from the Audyssey discovered lower values on the frequency response.

When I just upped the subwoofer dB by +6 on both sub1 and sub 2, only the subwoofer levels changed, the rest of the FR looked good and very similar, but as soon as I disabled Audyssey and then turned it back on, or simply disable Audyssey Dynamic EQ and then turned it back on my graphs seemed to show pretty dynamic differences. It's like it didn't return to the same settings?

I'll shortly post up the graphs I took before it got complicated and I lost exactly what I was doing after getting to tired. More for another night.
post #243 of 386
I think that's the sort of behavior that Mark's been alluding to as a reason why to NOT use Audyssey for a blind comparison - you don't know exactly what it's doing, and the results may not be repeatable. Variance is bad in any testing, and Audyssey potentially introduces too much variance. It's much better to do what was done at Greg's GTG, with REW and whatever EQ solution you have. It's more work, to be sure, but I think you will get cleaner results. Plus, you already have your hands full with duals of each sub.

On another note, and sorta kidding, I know you said you didn't want to fill the whole day with clips of explosions, but are you rigging the movie clips to include mostly those with little or no content below 15hz, so as to favor the Captivators and Orbit Shifters? I don't see HTTYD Dragon Crash, WOTW Lightning Strikes and Pods Emerge, TIH Cop Car Smash, BHD F'ing Irene, Open Range, Star Trek Black Hole, Tron Beamed to the Grid, etc. in your list. Perhaps they'll make the final cut? If not, definitely toss in FOTP for sheer outrageousness, and to make the Caps happy.

As to bossobass's suggestion to speclab the clips, I think it would be highly beneficial, if you had the time, to do that before the meet and post screenshots here for all to see. That way you know what content is being played back but not the subs trying to do it, so the blind comparison is not compromised.
post #244 of 386
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nube View Post

I think that's the sort of behavior that Mark's been alluding to as a reason why to NOT use Audyssey for a blind comparison - you don't know exactly what it's doing, and the results may not be repeatable. Variance is bad in any testing, and Audyssey potentially introduces too much variance. It's much better to do what was done at Greg's GTG, with REW and whatever EQ solution you have. It's more work, to be sure, but I think you will get cleaner results. Plus, you already have your hands full with duals of each sub.

agreed - we don't want variance in testing, but I fully plan to vette that out before the meet and decide either way.

I'll run audyssey tonight or tomorrow night again and compare FR results between two different runs, and maybe a third time for good measure. Though the question remains - how are we sure that REW methods of EQ that were used at the Omaha meet are any more reliable between 100hz and 20,000 hz? (since that REALLY appears to be the area of primary concern with first test runs last night)...

Quote:
Originally Posted by nube View Post

On another note, and sorta kidding, I know you said you didn't want to fill the whole day with clips of explosions, but are you rigging the movie clips to include mostly those with little or no content below 15hz, so as to favor the Captivators and Orbit Shifters? I don't see HTTYD Dragon Crash, WOTW Lightning Strikes and Pods Emerge, TIH Cop Car Smash, BHD F'ing Irene, Open Range, Star Trek Black Hole, Tron Beamed to the Grid, etc. in your list. Perhaps they'll make the final cut? If not, definitely toss in FOTP for sheer outrageousness, and to make the Caps happy.

Caps are happy to play anything I throw at them...I've never heard my pair unhappy.
As to the ultra low LFE clips - I didn't include them by name as having made them in my previous lists because I didn't make them. I have them from the scubasteve disc and have held every intention of including nearly every clip you mentioned. I shortened some of them down last night using tsmuxor so they were not 3 minutes, long. I too want to hear that material, and see if we can really detect a difference between ported and sealed subsonics! The one problem with tightening all these clips up to just the BEST part of the scene, is that we are going to be overwhelmed with bass if we aren't careful. My 10-15 minute listening session of multiple clips last night at reference and -5 left me feeling like I was hungover today -- well that and going to bed at after 3AM on a worknight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nube View Post

As to bossobass's suggestion to speclab the clips, I think it would be highly beneficial, if you had the time, to do that before the meet and post screenshots here for all to see. That way you know what content is being played back but not the subs trying to do it, so the blind comparison is not compromised.

All the clips are pretty much done at this point. I have a group of probably 30 movie clips and 50 song clips to sort down. How do I do the speclab graphs? I bought a 25 pack of BDR disks to give every attendee a copy of the clips and song material we use at the meet - thus if I can't do it, I'm sure somebody can! I don't know how to use REW and I'm a novice with omnimic, and I know nothing about speclabs - but I'm willing to learn! I was originally going to try to author all the clips to BluRay disc and have my own scubasteve variant LFE disc, but that seems too complicated for the short time I have left, and might have to be a future project -- so the disc will likely just be a data disc holding all the m2ts, ac3, and mp3 files.
post #245 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Nube, I didn't include them by name as having made them because I didn't make them. I have them from the scubasteve disc and have held every intention of including nearly every clip you mentioned. I too want to hear that material!

Good thing you WANT to hear and feel less than 20 hz material....sealed subs are coming!!!! hallelujah
post #246 of 386
Cool, cool. What's the lineup going to be?

Speclabs of each scene? I think that would help set your GTG apart from the others out there, and raise the bar and expectations for future GTGs. (EDIT: Plus, as a side note, I think somebody needs to put together a true, backed up repository of Speclab graphs...cuz so many from the old days are missing.)

Also, goddamn! I wish I could attend!
post #247 of 386
Thread Starter 
updated my previous post response to you nube with what I had intended to write, but couldn't stand to do from my smart phone at the time of my initial response!

My head hurts...

I only have a couple more clips to make/shorten. Then it's narrowing the full magazine of clips down to and handful consisting of 30 or 40 minutes of song and movie material per sub x 6 auditions (maybe seven if Mark brings some toys - which it sounds more like hes definately going to try to attend at this point!) That filtering out of the best clips will happen in large part tonight with 3 or 4 people. Then I can post a more final clip and song list.

Jeff confirmed is bringing a friend/customer, and jedimastergrant confirmed attendance today. I'll update the first post.
post #248 of 386
Thread Starter 
nube ---

Buy a darn plane ticket and crash out at my place...
post #249 of 386
No FW subs???
post #250 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metalbender View Post

No FW subs???

you have a source?
post #251 of 386
Thread Starter 
Because the klipsch subs likely won't be blind auditioned and will be setup the day before and ready to play right at the start of the day as a reference for the room - we are really only blind auditioning five subs at this time.

JTR X3
Chase
HSU

Perhaps Submersives as a hopeful possibility. Husker's DIY 18" x4 setup a hopeful possibility. We do have time for another set of subs or two if found.
post #252 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Because the klipsch subs likely won't be blind auditioned and will be setup the day before and ready to play right at the start of the day as a reference for the room - we are really only blind auditioning five subs at this time.

JTR X3
Chase
HSU

Perhaps Submersives as a hopeful possibility. Husker's DIY 18" x4 setup a hopeful possibility. We do have time for another set of subs or two if found.

Other options to consider:

Bringing 2 x Dual Opposed MFW-15. Run from the MCCA (Kevin) modified SA1000 amp we still have from the GTG at my place (ran out of time). You could even use these as the "get used to the room" listening pair unblinded since their output will be closer to that of the demo material being presented. Then you impressed people can take them home.

Bringing 2 x LilMike designed Cinema F20s. If anyone in the KC area wants to take these home that could happen as well. PM me. Not sure Archaea has room for these beasts? I'd have to borrow my dad's truck but could make it happen.

I'm not sure I'll have the drivers in time. I'll bring my FP14k for sure though.
post #253 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

nube ---

Buy a darn plane ticket and crash out at my place...

Truly wish I could, but I'm tapped after two unplanned and two planned cross-country trips in the last 6 weeks. Living on a grad student's stipend ain't easy when rent is $750/mo.

(I write this as I sup on grilled romaine, lobster bisque, a king cut of roasted prime rib, and creme brulee is awaiting the torch. )

Also, I was curious why you had the lowly Klipsch stuff in the lineup. One of these things is not like the others...

As for the Speclab thing, I think ironhead had a link to his own how-to thread, earlier in this thread. Also, I'm sure bossobass, Scott Simonian, or a variety of others would be willing to help. I mean, how hard can it be? REW is pretty easy as long as you have any computer savvy whatsoever.
post #254 of 386
I wish I lived in Kansas!!!
post #255 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elfather View Post

I wish I lived in Kansas!!!

No you don't, I was born in Kansas and you live in Florida-->

HH
post #256 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskerHarley View Post

No you don't, I was born in Kansas and you live in Florida-->

HH

Orlando isn't all that great either...it's warm and that's about it.
Omaha is an awesome place. Probably my favorite mid-western city.
Kansas City I have not spent much time in...but I hear mixed opinions.
post #257 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elfather View Post

I wish I lived in Kansas!!!

The shootout is in Missouri, but yeah, some of us attending like me do live in on the Kansas side.
post #258 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskerHarley View Post

No you don't, I was born in Kansas and you live in Florida-->

HH

I didn't mean it like that! what i meant was that i wish i could make this "shootout" I love Orlando. For the most part.


Quote:
Originally Posted by benclement11 View Post

Orlando isn't all that great either...it's warm and that's about it.
Omaha is an awesome place. Probably my favorite mid-western city.
Kansas City I have not spent much time in...but I hear mixed opinions.

Not that warm during this time my friend. Last year we hit a record low 18 Degree which it's freaking freezing by Florida standards. and this we seem to be heading the same direction
post #259 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by benclement11 View Post

Orlando isn't all that great either...it's warm and that's about it.
Omaha is an awesome place. Probably my favorite mid-western city.
Kansas City I have not spent much time in...but I hear mixed opinions.

Kansas City itself is a mess, but a lot of the suburbs are very nice.... if you are into boring suburb life like me.

KC MO school district recently lost their state accreditation, so now they are going to allow the students to spill out and attend whatever school district they want to attend in any of the surrounding school districts. As a teacher in one of those districts.... I can't wait.

Back on topic - can't Counsil be persuaded to loan out a couple of Submersives from his stock pile? It would be a shame not to include them in the blind test. If he doesn't want to mess with it or is busy I totally understand of course.
post #260 of 386
Thread Starter 
Doug's been super busy and has some illness in the family. I think he's probably out, but I did invite him, he said he hasn't watched a movie on that uber system of his in two months.
post #261 of 386
Thread Starter 
So tonight four people (3 others and myself) listened to 50ish demo clips.

A buddy of mine from work who loves music but isn't much of a subwoofer guy, Stitch1, and Luke Kamp.

Volume will have to be dialed back from what I originally thought. We started the night at - 6 AVR volume with a +3 to +6dB boost on both subs and admittedly it is just too loud for regular watching of non stop bass material -- especially when considering a full day. So we more or less agreed that the meet could probably be run at about -10 from reference with each sub hopped up about 3dB hot. This was decided after continually dialing the volume back down slowly through the 50 or so clips we watched until we reached a level that no longer was borderline uncomfortable. That volume was still fun and tactile, but tolerable by each of us! Yes it's not nearly as cool as reference on some of those clips like WOTW, and FOTP etc, but reference non stop hurts. Luke mentioned we would be violating OSHA hearing safety guidelines if we listened to about ~6 hours of 120dB material on the 14th.


Here is more or less the final movie clip lineup - most of these demos are about 1 minute clips. Makes for about 25 minutes of sub clips.

Animusic - last track
Battlefield LA - Alien Ship thrusters
BlackHawk Down - Irene
Book of Eli - gunfight
Dolby Digital Trailer - Canyon
Dolby Digital Trailer - Rain
Drumline - battle o the drumcores
Flight of the Phoenix - barrel roll
How to Train your Dragon - cliff burst
Hulk - cop car scene
Hulk - sonic canon scene
IronMan - Jericho Missle
John Mayer - Waiting for the World to Change
Matrix Revolutions - Architect voice
Star Wars 1 - Pod Race warm up
Terminator Salvation - Big Robot
THX - Amazing Life Trailer
TitanAE - Ice Field
Transformers 3 - Bumblebee HWY scene
War of the Worlds - Pod Emergence Scene
Kung Fu Panda - Skadoosh
Tron Legacy - Club Scene


Not yet finished but to be included
Tron Legacy - entering the grid
Master and Commander - ship battle
Red Cliff - drum beats

Cutting room floor -
Gads of movie studio introductions, dolby digital demos, and other quick demo sources
Band of Brothers - the breaking point
Inception - street erruption
IronMan 2- Fireworks -- (this cut kills me - maybe I'll make a directors edition, but the other guys weren't feeling it. HOW CAN THEY NOT LIKE AC/DC)
Jurrasic Park - TRex
Mr. and Mrs. Smith - gufight
Terminator 2 - Chaingun and Grenade launcher
Tron Legacy - ships fly by
U-571- Depth Charges.




SONG selection (about 10 minutes or so in length) still to be determined. There will be some substitutions from the last KC meet, but some will be the same.
post #262 of 386
Maybe you should add the fireworks scene back into the mix. It is pretty cool. I still think you need to add a bit of Blue Man Group in for a music clip. Anyway to get a copy of the demos used?
post #263 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by stitch1 View Post

Maybe you should add the fireworks scene back into the mix. It is pretty cool. I still think you need to add a bit of Blue Man Group in for a music clip. Anyway to get a copy of the demos used?

Actually Archaea volunteered to burn discs and mail them to whomever for $10. Just have to PM him! J
post #264 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Here is more or less the final movie clip lineup - most of these demos are about 1 minute clips. Makes for about 25 minutes of sub clips.

Animusic - last track
Battlefield LA - Alien Ship thrusters
BlackHawk Down - Irene
Book of Eli - gunfight
Dolby Digital Trailer - Canyon
Dolby Digital Trailer - Rain
Drumline - battle o the drumcores
Flight of the Phoenix - barrel roll
How to Train your Dragon - cliff burst
Hulk - cop car scene
Hulk - sonic canon scene
IronMan - Jericho Missle
John Mayer - Waiting for the World to Change
Matrix Revolutions - Architect voice
Star Wars 1 - Pod Race warm up
Terminator Salvation - Big Robot
THX - Amazing Life Trailer
TitanAE - Ice Field
Transformers 3 - Bumblebee HWY scene
War of the Worlds - Pod Emergence Scene
Kung Fu Panda - Skadoosh
Tron Legacy - Club Scene


Not yet finished but to be included
Tron Legacy - entering the grid
Master and Commander - ship battle
Red Cliff - drum beats

Cutting room floor -
Gads of movie studio introductions, dolby digital demos, and other quick demo sources
Band of Brothers - the breaking point
Inception - street erruption
IronMan 2- Fireworks -- (this cut kills me - maybe I'll make a directors edition, but the other guys weren't feeling it. HOW CAN THEY NOT LIKE AC/DC)
Jurrasic Park - TRex
Mr. and Mrs. Smith - gufight
Terminator 2 - Chaingun and Grenade launcher
Tron Legacy - ships fly by
U-571- Depth Charges.

Great line up,,U-571 DC was one of my favorite clips to impress/scare my friends...

HH
post #265 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post

you have a source?

I have a 15.3 but i am a little far away. I just have never seen any FW subs in any of these tests. I would like to see how they compare.
post #266 of 386
Quote:


Here is more or less the final movie clip lineup - most of these demos are about 1 minute clips. Makes for about 25 minutes of sub clips.

Some Speclab captures included for fun's sake ^^

Animusic - last track
Battlefield LA - Alien Ship thrusters (00:54:45)
BlackHawk Down - Irene (00:35:20 /DVD)
Book of Eli - gunfight
Dolby Digital Trailer - Canyon
Dolby Digital Trailer - Rain
Drumline - battle o the drumcores
Flight of the Phoenix - barrel roll (00:15:37 /DVD)
How to Train your Dragon - cliff burst
Hulk - cop car scene
Hulk - sonic canon scene
IronMan - Jericho Missle
John Mayer - Waiting for the World to Change
Matrix Revolutions - Architect voice (01:39:37)
Star Wars 1 - Pod Race warm up (01:00:00 / DVD) 01:03:32 pod racing
Terminator Salvation - Big Robot (00:37:38) (Gas station explosion 00:40:27)
THX - Amazing Life Trailer
TitanAE - Ice Field (01:03:37 /DVD)
Transformers 3 - Bumblebee HWY scene
War of the Worlds - Pod Emergence Scene (00:22:02)
Kung Fu Panda - Skadoosh (01:19:51)
Tron Legacy - Club Scene (01:28:21 explosion at the club )


Not yet finished but to be included
Tron Legacy - entering the grid (00:23:14)
Master and Commander - ship battle (00:11:00 /DVD)
Red Cliff - drum beats
post #267 of 386
post #268 of 386
Just wanted to say I had a good time as usual over at Archaea's last night. Those caps sound great and I was digging the lower tune.

Thanks for putting up the speclab capture links ken wu. I will be looking those over before the meet for sure.

I hope those pi 18's show up in time HO, those look like some pretty sweet drivers.

I was thinking if we get a couple of subm's or the pi's show up, we drop the HSU's? We could save some time and I don't think the HSU's will be much of a comparison with these heavy hitters. Don't get me wrong they are nice subs but like I told Archaea, "next up 4 18 inch and 2000watts lets see if they can tell a difference." Someone mentioned going out on the town afterwards and I would definitely be down for that. Food Food Food Beer Beer Beer I am getting excited.
post #269 of 386
I can picture you guys going out to a quiet pub afterwards and shouting in each others faces just to hear each other talk while everyone else there looks at the GTG group like WTF?
post #270 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by capecodorthopod View Post

I can picture you guys going out to a quiet pub afterwards and shouting in each others faces just to hear each other talk while everyone else there looks at the GTG group like WTF?

I REALLY LIKED THOSE ORBIT SHIFTERS JEFF

lmao
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