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KC High End Subwoofer Blind Audition Interest Thread - Page 2

post #31 of 386
11/2/11 at 5:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

My NR1007 does EQ each sub seperately using 8 positions. It does xover, distance and levels for each sub out individually. From the NR1007 thread I think it does everything the XT32 does without then going back and pinging the subs as a pair at the end??

From the Audyssey Installer Site:


Features MultEQ XT32 MultEQ XT MultEQ 2EQ
Filter resolution (satellites) 512x 16x 2x x
Filter resolution (subwoofer) 512x 128x 128x N/A
Number of Measurement Positions 8* 8* 6 3
Adaptive Low Frequency Correction Yes Yes Yes N/A
Crossover, Polarity, Delays, Levels Yes Yes Yes Yes
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post #32 of 386
11/2/11 at 5:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post


The latest Audyssey MultEQ XT32 does much better with the bass frequencies (unfortunately Archaea's Onkyo AVR does not have XT32). It only takes 20 minutes to run a full 8 position Audyssey EQ but then you have xover, distance and levels set for each sub and the speakers. A three position Audyssey would be less than 10 minutes per sub. REW could be used before and after Audyssey to see what Audyssey has done to the native FR.

Seems simple and fair to me but then, I'm a simple guy.

The problem is that I don't think I've ever had an Audyssey run that doesn't sound different from the last. I've used XT, upgraded to XT32, then upgraded to Pro and I've yet to find an audibly identical calibration. That creates a lot of unnecessary variability IMO.

In place of Audyssey, I would say a better approach would be to restrict the comparo to two identical subs for each manufacturer placed to achieve the best in-room FR. Then there is far less need for Audyssey.
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post #33 of 386
11/2/11 at 5:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

My NR1007 does EQ each sub seperately using 8 positions. It does xover, distance and levels for each sub out individually. From the NR1007 thread I think it does everything the XT32 does without then going back and pinging the subs as a pair at the end??

Much better LFE results based upon the additional filter resolution of XT32.
From the Audyssey Installer Site(sorry about the loss of formatting ):


Features MultEQ XT32 MultEQ XT MultEQ 2EQ
Filter resolution (satellites) 512x 16x 2x x
Filter resolution (subwoofer) 512x 128x 128x N/A
Number of Measurement Positions 8* 8* 6 3
Adaptive Low Frequency Correction Yes Yes Yes N/A
Crossover, Polarity, Delays, Levels Yes Yes Yes Yes
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post #34 of 386
11/2/11 at 5:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

The problem is that I don't think I've ever had an Audyssey run that doesn't sound different from the last. I've used XT, upgraded to XT32, then upgraded to Pro and I've yet to find an audibly identical calibration. That creates a lot of unnecessary variability IMO.

In place of Audyssey, I would say a better approach would be to restrict the comparo to two identical subs for each manufacturer placed to achieve the best in-room FR. Then there is far less need for Audyssey.

Archaea, say "Yes".

If this is to be a serious big dog sub shoot out, why even consider single subs? Real bass requires at least two subs to counter room modes.
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post #35 of 386
11/2/11 at 5:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tesseract67 View Post

Archaea, say "Yes".

If this is to be a serious big dog sub shoot out, why even consider single subs? Real bass requires at least two subs to counter room modes.

I think the problem with this is...who has duals of A7-900, Orbit Shifters, etc.
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post #36 of 386
11/2/11 at 5:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

The problem is that I don't think I've ever had an Audyssey run that doesn't sound different from the last. I've used XT, upgraded to XT32, then upgraded to Pro and I've yet to find an audibly identical calibration. That creates a lot of unnecessary variability IMO.

In place of Audyssey, I would say a better approach would be to restrict the comparo to two identical subs for each manufacturer placed to achieve the best in-room FR. Then there is far less need for Audyssey.

I made my suggestion based on the exact same experience. Every time you run Audyssey you will have a different balance with the speakers, which can dramatically skew the bass perceptions. Keep as many things constant as you can between listening sessions. If you want to use a "point-n-shoot" EQ, maybe use an AntiMode 8033, but I'd still recommend a finite/reasonable number of PEQ filters for REW to work with.
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post #37 of 386
11/2/11 at 5:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post

I think the problem with this is...who has duals of A7-900, Orbit Shifters, etc.

Why, Jeff and eD do!

Well, maybe eD doesn't have dually A7-900s sitting around, I think they are special order, but the push for two is a worthy cause.
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post #38 of 386
11/2/11 at 5:55pm
Thread Starter 
I'd be up for pairs. --- but I'm not opposed to singles either...it'll probably just amount to what we can get.

Saturday will be fun for everyone - but Sunday will be a work day to re-grout all my tile that has cracked and broken apart through this likely outrageous event

You guys who haven't been to my house ought to know up front. I'm happy to host, but my house and theater room are humble compared to a lot of guys on these forums. I don't have sound treatment on the walls or snazy this and thats. When we crank up dual caps or orbit shifters --- things will in fact rattle a wee bit in my 3500 cubic foot room - Though I think they would in most rooms, unless heavily treated. If I keep my fireplace glass cracked open, and the circuit breaker box open then the worst of it is mitigated. That being said if someone else in the midwest wants to host and has a dedicated room and the ability to ship off their family for a day or two - they are welcome to volunteer their room as well! At the KC meet we cranked the AVR to about +5 as a maximum on some of the tracks if I remember correctly. It was both painful and awesome at the same time.

If we wanted to go REALLY crazy the church I attend is fairly secluded and has a large auditorium and many small classrooms. I had asked previously if we could use the facility for something like this on a Saturday and was told that would be fine. It no longer would be applicable for a home theater room compare --- but it would be pretty fun to cut the subs loose and see what they do in a couple hundred person sanctuary, or the classroom size of our choice. I offer that as a brainstorm alternative, but my home remains open as the more likely option.

My wife and family will be out of state visiting family so anybody from out of town is very welcome to crash on the floor, couch, recliners - wherever. then fell free to hang out - Fri and Sat nights. Go as you please on Sunday - whenever is comfortable.

For the tests it might be fun to do some real world usage tests too outside of just music and movies. How about a song on each sub playing a music game with a bass heavy song selection like DJ Hero or Guitar Hero with four player bass guitar part?

I would also like to change up the subwoofer tracks to encompass more variety. WOTW type rumblings over and over get tiresome by day's end. One or two has it's place in the clip lineups - but let's hear how the big boys offer finess as well? The Deeper song by Pete Balasco was great at the Omaha meet, as were a few of the other tracks. It'd be ideal to keep the audition tracks very different to encompass what the subs can do in all aspects of sound reproduction!?!

As to setup rules for eq and such --- I'm flexible --- just the idea of keeping the auditioning sub blind from the voters will be fun.
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post #39 of 386
11/2/11 at 5:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tesseract67 View Post

Why, Jeff and eD do!

Well, maybe eD doesn't have dually A7-900s sitting around, I think they are special order, but the push for two is a worthy cause.

So, pretty much this would be turned into a crazy, no one on avsforum can relate to this GTG because no one can afford or have the space for these things.

Potential Lineup:

2 F20s
2 DTS10s
2 Orbit Shifters
2 Terraform XLs
2 A7-900s

Okay, I'm sold.

EDIT: And lets find a classroom at Archaea's church that is only 1000 cu feet.

And lets see which sub setup of these plays the blades from black hawk down the loudest.
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post #40 of 386
11/2/11 at 6:02pm
I must have missed this. Is there a date set already?
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post #41 of 386
11/2/11 at 6:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

If we wanted to go REALLY crazy the church I attend is fairly secluded and has a large auditorium and many small classrooms. I had asked previously if we could use the facility for something like this on a Saturday and was told that would be fine. It no longer would be applicable for a home theater room compare --- but it would be pretty fun to cut the subs loose and see what they do in a couple hundred person sanctuary, or the classroom size of our choice. I offer that as a brainstorm alternative, but my home remains open as the more likely option.

If the room in mind has a suspended ceiling, that might be undesirable.

Quote:


My wife and family will be out of state visiting family so anybody from out of town is very welcome to crash on the floor, couch, recliners - wherever. then fell free to hang out - Fri and Sat nights. Go as you please on Sunday - whenever is comfortable.

Can I call dibs on a recliner?

Quote:


For the tests it might be fun to do some real world usage tests too outside of just music and movies. How about a song on each sub playing a music game with a bass heavy song selection like DJ Hero or Guitar Hero with four player bass guitar part?

How about a clip from Animusic? I also have DVD-A and SACD. Hi Rez Steely Dan and Nine Inch Nails does bass well.
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post #42 of 386
11/2/11 at 6:10pm
Blind Testing is exactly why dual subs won't work.

Sorry Mark but you are off the mark () with Audyssey XT32. Even very slight variations in mic position can produce different results with any FR graph and any subsequent EQ, no? I used to be very sceptical of Audyssey but XT32 has me believing in magic .
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post #43 of 386
11/2/11 at 6:13pm
Quote:


Potential Lineup:

2 F20s
2 DTS10s
2 Orbit Shifters
2 Terraform XLs
2 A7-900s

Okay, I'm sold.

EDIT: And lets find a classroom at Archaea's church that is only 1000 cu feet.

And lets see which sub setup of these plays the blades from black hawk down the loudest.

You forgot... twin BIC F-12s!
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post #44 of 386
11/2/11 at 6:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Blind Testing is exactly why dual subs won't work.

Depends on setup. Want to hear what the subs can do? Eliminate the room's contribution as a factor the best you can.
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post #45 of 386
11/2/11 at 6:21pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Much better LFE results based upon the additional filter resolution of XT32.
From the Audyssey Installer Site(sorry about the loss of formatting ):


Features MultEQ XT32 MultEQ XT MultEQ 2EQ
Filter resolution (satellites) 512x 16x 2x x
Filter resolution (subwoofer) 512x 128x 128x N/A
Number of Measurement Positions 8* 8* 6 3
Adaptive Low Frequency Correction Yes Yes Yes N/A
Crossover, Polarity, Delays, Levels Yes Yes Yes Yes


Onkyo 2009 receivers - 1007, 3007, and 5007 have the following info-

as taken from this thread -
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1192172

Audyssey Sub EQ HT
In 2009, Onkyo released the xx07-line of products:
Audyssey MultEQ: TX-NR707, TX-NR807
Audyssey MultEQ XT: TX-NR1007, TX-NR3007,TX-NR5007 and PR-SC5507
In the TX-NR707 and TX-NR807 they are simply y-splitting the sub signal to the two connectors so you can connect your second sub to the other connector. [In these receivers] MultEQ will ping them as "one", but there is no Sub EQ HT functionality and so the delays and levels between the two subs can't be compensated in advance of the calibration.

But MultEQ XT for TX-NR1007, TX-NR3007,TX-NR5007 and PR-SC5507 contained a new and, at that time, unnamed technology for handling dual subs: MultEQ XT will adjust both subwoofers together by fixing any time and level delays between them and then creating a single room correction filter for optimum bass response in the room.

In August 2010, Audyssey launches a new technology called Audyssey Sub EQ HT and that technology was already present in the MultEQ XT products released by Onkyo one year earlier [1007, 3007, 5007 and PR-SC5507].
Allthough Sub EQ HT is included in all new MultEQ XT32 AVRs, Sub EQ HT has nothing to do with XT32. It's a separate function and can be used with any version of MultEQ. The xx07 were the first models.
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post #46 of 386
11/2/11 at 6:25pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tesseract67 View Post

If the room in mind has a suspended ceiling, that might be undesirable.



Can I call dibs on a recliner?



How about a clip from Animusic? I also have DVD-A and SACD. Hi Rez Steely Dan and Nine Inch Nails does bass well.

no drop ceiling (it's all drywall) - but I might have a dropped ceiling if we plan to power two captivators, two orbit shifters, two submersives, two A7-900's, etc to full tilt.

A comfy recliner is all yours to pass out on if you like!

I love animusic - which track is your fav?
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post #47 of 386
11/2/11 at 6:26pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post

I must have missed this. Is there a date set already?

This is still an "interest" thread at this point, but the wife and family are out of town Jan 4 -Jan 20. Jan 14, Saturday seemed like a decent date to suggest.
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post #48 of 386
11/2/11 at 6:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

no drop ceiling (it's all drywall) - but I might have a dropped ceiling if we plan to power two captivators, two orbit shifters, two submersives, two A7-900's, etc to full tilt.

A comfy recliner is all yours to pass out on if you like!

I love animusic - which track is your fav?

Animusic 2: I like Gyro Drums the best for sound, followed by Fiber Bundles for low bass, and Pipe Dream 2 for sheer fun.
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post #49 of 386
11/2/11 at 8:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Blind Testing is exactly why dual subs won't work.

Sorry Mark but you are off the mark () with Audyssey XT32. Even very slight variations in mic position can produce different results with any FR graph and any subsequent EQ, no? I used to be very sceptical of Audyssey but XT32 has be believing .

Yes, different Mic positions will change the measured FR graph but its the changes made by Audyssey above the crossover that will introduce a variable that can be avoided by using dual subs or an EQ device that will only affect the FR and voicing of the system below the crossover. Not to speak for Mark, but I think that's what he was getting at.
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post #50 of 386
11/3/11 at 8:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

I made my suggestion based on the exact same experience. Every time you run Audyssey you will have a different balance with the speakers, which can dramatically skew the bass perceptions. Keep as many things constant as you can between listening sessions. If you want to use a "point-n-shoot" EQ, maybe use an AntiMode 8033, but I'd still recommend a finite/reasonable number of PEQ filters for REW to work with.

I think you need to think more macro Mark (but then, you wouldn't be an engineer, would you ). I found this interesting quote in the Audyssey Thread and it pretty much follows a discussion I had with Keith Yates.

Quote:


The interaction of speaker and room is a filter itself and this is what can be measured. From that a inverse filter can be calculated that removes all room "errors". The problem is that this filter will only work at the single point in space the mic was located but the sound field changes considerably with location.

MultEQ on the other hand looks for similarities at different points in space and only problems similar to each point (or clusters of data points) are corrected. The question arises "Does this work for all frequencies, only certain frequency ranges, only under certain circumstances or does it work at all?"
Another questions is "Are all reflections equally bad?". While every acoustics expert states that listening in an anechoic chamber is not the goal, they and us strive for eliminating any and all reflections. Just recently people realize that reflections enable spaciousness which is a desirable attribute of sound reproduction.

In the end equalizers are just tools. The real question is what the ideal sound field has to look like. There's probably no satisfying answer yet.

Mult EQ XT32 increased the number of measured points and for me, has given the most satisfying/sounding results in my room. Audyssey is an interesting EQ tool and perhaps the best tool for the casual HT owners but not right for someone like you or Keith (putting you in some pretty lofty company there Mark ). The results are not consistent but with all of the variables, how could they be ...? Remember that Keith in his mega buck HT builds after engineering the hell out of the space (zero noise floor), and using his customized Dolby Lake EQ hardware/software, ultimately fine tunes the room by ear... wouldn't it be ironic if that was close to the results MultEQ XT32 produced ...
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post #51 of 386
11/3/11 at 8:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Mult EQ XT32 increased the number of measured points and for me, has given the most satisfying/sounding results in my room. Audyssey is an interesting EQ tool and perhaps the best tool for the casual HT owners but not right for someone like you or Keith (putting you in some pretty lofty company there Mark ). The results are not consistent but with all of the variables, how could they be ...?

I work with and consider Keith a friend. I guarantee he will agree with me on this one. The balance from speaker to subwoofer plays a huge roll in the bass perception. Chancing a change in that for each measurement session is a BAD idea. I would suggest checking that it would still work right, but if guys are interested in letting Audyssey do its thing, run Audyssey before hand with no sub in the system, then turn on the subs and EQ each as needed. Until some measurements are taken from the potential location for the subwoofer(s), we're speculating a bit, as real locations might make some of the comparison easier if we know the response is pretty flat. Maybe the guys could get an AS-EQ1 from SVS for the comparison so the subs could be re-run without having to change settings on the speakers. This was the most frustrating part of the Omaha GTG. Desertdome did a good job of trying to match this with the quick SPL readings before each listen, but it was still an approximation, where a simple receiver or preamp makes the speaker consistency absolutely certain.

The ultimate question is to consider if users can get audibly different results running Audyssey 3 different times or with small variations in starting sub levels or exact mic location, which version do you want to judge the subwoofers on?
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post #52 of 386
11/3/11 at 10:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

I work with and consider Keith a friend. I guarantee he will agree with me on this one. The balance from speaker to subwoofer plays a huge roll in the bass perception. Chancing a change in that for each measurement session is a BAD idea. I would suggest checking that it would still work right, but if guys are interested in letting Audyssey do its thing, run Audyssey before hand with no sub in the system, then turn on the subs and EQ each as needed. Until some measurements are taken from the potential location for the subwoofer(s), we're speculating a bit, as real locations might make some of the comparison easier if we know the response is pretty flat. Maybe the guys could get an AS-EQ1 from SVS for the comparison so the subs could be re-run without having to change settings on the speakers. This was the most frustrating part of the Omaha GTG. Desertdome did a good job of trying to match this with the quick SPL readings before each listen, but it was still an approximation, where a simple receiver or preamp makes the speaker consistency absolutely certain.

The ultimate question is to consider if users can get audibly different results running Audyssey 3 different times or with small variations in starting sub levels or exact mic location, which version do you want to judge the subwoofers on?

I vote for you to attend and run the setup and EQ (you know, for the greater good ). Problem solved .
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post #53 of 386
11/6/11 at 11:17am
O would I love to hear 2 of orbit shifters, caps, A7-900s.
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post #54 of 386
11/6/11 at 5:06pm
Hmm...if it is the 14th I'll be working...I'll have to see about switching out of that weekend...we just have a few people on FML so I'll see what I can move around. I want to hear a SubM and a CHT 18.2 or duals again BLIND before I make my next purchase or DIY.
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post #55 of 386
11/6/11 at 6:02pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post

I want to hear a SubM and a CHT 18.2 or duals again BLIND before I make my next purchase or DIY.

hey hey hey --

maybe you still ought not rule out the ported. You only thought you heard/need that ultra deep extension...
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post #56 of 386
11/6/11 at 6:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post


hey hey hey --

maybe you still ought not rule out the ported. You only thought you heard/need that ultra deep extension...

Sealed has the widest bandwidth possibilities. I'm sold on it.
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post #57 of 386
11/6/11 at 8:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post

I think it is funny though-- We go from getting disparaged for our "gross mistakes in methodology"...


Hey, I apologized for that!

Again, sorry about that.
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post #58 of 386
11/6/11 at 9:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post


hey hey hey --

maybe you still ought not rule out the ported. You only thought you heard/need that ultra deep extension...

Again you need enough spl down low to feel it and one submersive at the GTG won't do it. Put 4 caps vs 4 submersives and then the extension will be felt easily but the caps won't have it. Seriously, if I could only have one sub I would chose the orbit shifter but being able to have many I chose sealed. Btw I am setting up the Caps and triple 8's Tuesday!
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post #59 of 386
11/6/11 at 10:01pm
Thread Starter 
I'm looking forward to hear your impressions.

As to more than one subm [or any sealed sub] being the magic bullet to feeling that extension? I've heard five Subm hp subs in one room and still don't understand what the big hunt for that extension below human hearing is gaining? Maybe i`ll hear stuff blind I don't recognize sighted? We`ll see!
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post #60 of 386
11/6/11 at 10:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

I'm looking forward to hear your impressions.

As to more than one subm [or any sealed sub] being the magic bullet to feeling that extension? I've heard five Subm hp subs in one room and still don't understand what the big hunt for that extension below human hearing is gaining? Maybe i`ll hear stuff blind I don't recognize sighted? We`ll see!

What it adds is extra pressure and an ripple or shutter effect, like being underwater and getting shivers respectively. It will only be noticed during a movie scene that contains a loud low level osignal Which means you notice it less than 1% of the time but sometimes it happens during silent scenes just to add that feeling of doom. It is actually subtle and I miss it now since I got used to it. Again, we would notice more often because we play the scenes that have it I've and over for demo purposes. Is it needed, no, but it is more accurate.
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