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The "Official" Onkyo TX-NR3009 Owners Thread - Page 18

post #511 of 902
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolcat4843 View Post

Here you go...WHY YOU NEED FOUR SUBWOOFERS cool.gif

Seen it.
1. Ignores 3 subwoofer setups that can be just as good.

2. Not to mention if you get a big high quality sub you generally need less of them to get even bass across seating positions.

3. As mentioned many times before, every situation is different.

4. It would be better to read the articles that they mention rather then this article which only provides second hand information (but proves useful in directing you to the "real" articles.)

5. It doesn't mention it but all subwoofers should be the same. Not 1 and 3 or 2 and 2. All matching subwoofers is important if you really want to follow the advice of the article.

6. It also mentions that if you are investing enough money into 4 subs then you should be investing enough money into sub EQ. In case that isn't clear enough, Audyssey is not what they are talking about. The 32 is only setup to do 2 subwoofers, so unless you have the subs stacked on top of each other it won't EQ 4 subs as well as other software that was designed to (none to my knowledge) or doing it yourself with mini-dsp and REW or something else.

7. Every situation is different. Worth mentioning again because not every single person is trying to get even bass at every square inch of their room. Sometimes they only want to hit the listening positions, usually a couch if they don't have a dedicated room, which means 1 or 2 is just fine. Maybe they have a really good room and one super sub is enough to hit all the listening positions pretty equally and the gains of adding a second are so little that it's not worth it. The article quoted alludes to this as well.
post #512 of 902
The size of the sub does not influence the evenness of the sound field, but the placement.
Several smaller subs placed accordingly may produce a much better SQ than one large one.
post #513 of 902
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzz092888 View Post

Seen it.
1. Ignores 3 subwoofer setups that can be just as good.

That's because 3 subwoofer setups aren't as good as 4 sub setups.
post #514 of 902
This is just one conclusion of a certain school of wisdom, other studies and theories have a slightly or much different approaches to the same problem with at least the same amount of effectiveness if not even more.
The DBA approach for example chooses a completely different way of handling this situation eleminating the reflective wave fronts, by creating a semi planar wavefront in front, which will then be absorbed by the out of phase systems at the back. Done right this is even more effective, because it eliminates the cause of room modes all together, the reflections of the sound wave. This is theory naturally and has to be adapted in practical terms to the budget and the room setup of the individual. Minimum setup is two subs in the front and two subs in the back placed in a mirror like position. The subs must be identical, so the creation and absorption of the wave front will come close to the (never achievable) ideal. The subs in the back have to be operated out of phase to the original signal and a delay has to be introduced into the signal path to adjust for the path length (delay) the original signal has to travel. The *maximal* setup for this would be as many subs needed to create a perfect flat planar wavefront in front and to absorb it in the back, but as always in life much less will do and get you close to the optimum budget-wise. There is more to it in detail, please check the internet for further infos about this.
Earl Geddes has chosen a different approach, which uses several subs with different specs at different locations, placed rather irregular within the room, to even out the effects of room modes and variations with at least similar success to the work of Toole and Welti.
post #515 of 902
Here's the bottom line:

Quote:
Enter Dr. Floyd Toole and Todd Welti. Dr. Toole has been an invaluable asset to the sound reproduction industry and has devoted a great amount of his life to understanding how sound propagates in a home environment*. Todd Welti did a lot of experimentation with subwoofer placement, numbers, and bass sound quality. This breakthrough work on bass reproduction is a true revelation that has allowed us as home theater designers to create a room where we can significantly minimize bass response problems. The resulting whitepaper on the topic was a culmination of countless tests and acoustical models of playing with multiple subwoofers in different locations in a room to improve bass response over a much wider listening area. In the end, Dr. Toole and Todd Welti concluded that the most ideal scenario for bass reproduction is to have one subwoofer located at the midpoint of all four walls. This configuration displayed the least amount of variation in bass response from seat to seat. Alternately, four subwoofers can be used in each corner.
post #516 of 902
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolcat4843 View Post

Here's the bottom line:

I'd try explaining more to you but its not worth it. You've wasted enough of my time soooo I am done with you. Peace out girl scout smile.gif
post #517 of 902
Quote:
Originally Posted by gurkey View Post

The size of the sub does not influence the evenness of the sound field, but the placement.
Several smaller subs placed accordingly may produce a much better SQ than one large one.

I disagree slightly. The idea is that you want to pressurize the room right? As long as the room cooperates, the room isn't huge, and you do a proper bass crawl, one 18" sub could adequately pressurize a room. Especially if that sub is a high quality one and you have good sub EQ. I'm not saying it will be better than a multi-sub layout per se, but I'm saying that in the right situations it can get you darn close. In some cases, to the point where it isn't worth it add more subs. Plus it works better aesthetically to have one big box instead a bunch of small ones.

Also, as you said yourself, it MAY produce better SQ. I'd take one velo DD18, Funk Audio 18, Seaton Submersive or the like, over several smaller less capable subwoofers. With good sub management and proper placement in room I bet you can get darn close (room depending of course).
post #518 of 902
The answer depends on the definition of SQ in this context.
post #519 of 902
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolcat4843 View Post

Here's the bottom line:

As already explained there are several schools of thought here with different approaches to the same problem. Yours is only one of those, no matter what's been stated in your quote.
post #520 of 902
It is interesting that subwoofer discussions take more threads OT than any other topic. People are really passionate about their LFE! The same thing is happening on the JTR Captivator thread...

I am on the hunt for a decent priced 5009. Thought I had the bead on one at the local Fry's, but someone slipped in and gobbled it up before I could get there!
post #521 of 902
guys,

Quick question.

Under speaker settings -

It has Frequency setting for each of the speakers attached in Hz.

Am I right in thinking this is the Crossover Frequency to the subwoofer? The manual does not explictly state.

A KEF support guy told me I need 90 or 100hz for its mid range but want to check that the setting on my Onkyo is for Crossover Frequency and not something else.

Cheers.
post #522 of 902
Quote:
Originally Posted by davehhh1 View Post

guys,
Quick question.
Under speaker settings -
It has Frequency setting for each of the speakers attached in Hz.
Am I right in thinking this is the Crossover Frequency to the subwoofer? The manual does not explictly state.
A KEF support guy told me I need 90 or 100hz for its mid range but want to check that the setting on my Onkyo is for Crossover Frequency and not something else.
Cheers.

if you are talking about

Speaker Settings > Speaker Configuration

Where it says:

Subwoofer No/1/2
Front: XX Hz

and so on then yes that is the crossover.
post #523 of 902
Hi all- I'm having a problem with Audyssey on a new TX NR3009 I just (tried to) set up yesterday. I posted it in the Audyssey thread as well but figured I would float it here and see if Anyone has any insight. I'll copy my description :

Just to double check that the problem is repeatable, I ran Audyssey again this morning. The first 5 attempts never got past the sub leveling process; the mic would register spl up to 56 db, then the dbs would go down as I continued adjusting the gain upward. I unplugged the mic, power cycled the AVR, the restarted the process. Each time the SPL reading would crest at 56 db then fall even as I continued to adjust the sub gain upward. The sixth time, this didn't happen. I leveled the subs, then proceeded taking measurements. On the 5th position, the left speaker pinged twice, then I got the message "speaker match error - retry/cancel". I retried 3 or four times, then canceled. My speakers all match (Paradigm W5's) and are working correctly. I then switched out the mic with the one from my TX NR709, and successfully completed Audyssey on the first attempt.

HOWEVER--the original problem remains:

The Audyssey "off" setting sounds normal- nice sound from the paradigms with some slight boominess/dipiness in the bass and a sense that the mids/highs from each speaker are not fully cooperating to present a united image.

The Audyssey "Movie" setting sounds improved, with better definition in the mids/highs and vastly improved quality to the bass. Imaging is improved.

The Audyssey "music" setting sounds like the Audyssey "off" setting minus the Audyssey "movie" setting, if that makes sense. it is as if only the peaks are left. Like instead of "throwing out" or reducing the problem frequencies, Audyssey threw out the "good" information and kept the trash. Its intriguing because ideally the "music" curve should just sound slightly different than the "movie". It seems like something very simple and basic is buggered in the math.

End of Copy

I updated my firmware immediately upon plugging in the AVR, and I want to rule out a corrupt install. Is there a way to "erase" the firmware and re-intall it? I am also working on getting the equipment together to take measurements so I can post a visual representation of what is going on. Any insight on any of this would be appreciated.
post #524 of 902
are you adjusting the gain on the receiver or the sub? You should be adjusting the gain on the sub to get your SPL to 75db.
post #525 of 902
I am adjusting the gain on the sub. Though my mic issues are annoying, my first concern is that Audyssey produces one good curve, and one that is clearly dysfunctional and unusable. I had Audyssey xt On my 709 so have some reference on how the two curves should sound. If the mic was my issue, both curves should be messed up. Only the "music" curve is.
post #526 of 902
I had a similar problem. I also have a 709 & tried the mic for it. To make a long story short I got a replacement mic for my 3009 & it solved my problem.
post #527 of 902
Did you just get it through onkyo as a warranty item? And Did you have the same problem with the audyssey curves or just the mic?
Edited by textilet - 9/14/12 at 1:39pm
post #528 of 902
I got it through the warranty by calling. The problem I was having was I could not do a complete calibration. It would stop at different times.
post #529 of 902
Anyone have a 3007 before purchasing the 3009 and was it worth the upgrade? Thanx.
post #530 of 902
I also did a FW update upon install and want to know if I can reset. I am not happy with the way the 3009 calibrates my sub. Is this possible?
post #531 of 902
just redo the Audyssey
surely you can reset whenever you want
post #532 of 902
Quote:
Originally Posted by textilet View Post

I am adjusting the gain on the sub. Though my mic issues are annoying, my first concern is that Audyssey produces one good curve, and one that is clearly dysfunctional and unusable. I had Audyssey xt On my 709 so have some reference on how the two curves should sound. If the mic was my issue, both curves should be messed up. Only the "music" curve is.

I leveled all my subs to 75dB, then ran the 8 position Audyssey calibration, with no problems.
Of the two Audyssey curves, "Music" sounds the best in my room.
post #533 of 902
Quote:
Originally Posted by apelbaum View Post

just redo the Audyssey
surely you can reset whenever you want

I think you misunderstand
post #534 of 902
Only if you already have the firmware build that you want to install on a USB or you can find it online. Even then, once you install the new firmware, I'm not so sure it's a terrific idea.
post #535 of 902
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzz092888 View Post

Only if you already have the firmware build that you want to install on a USB or you can find it online. Even then, once you install the new firmware, I'm not so sure it's a terrific idea.

Ugh. Something is really off with my 3009 compared to my 818. Its not like I can pick one up from down the street either. I hate downtime.
post #536 of 902
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Draper View Post

Ugh. Something is really off with my 3009 compared to my 818. Its not like I can pick one up from down the street either. I hate downtime.

Try factory resetting the onkyo, if you haven't, then reinstalling the latest firmware.

Hold down the VCR/DVD button and the power button until the screen reads clear. Then release. The unit should shut off. Turn it back on and try to reinstall the latest firmware.
post #537 of 902
Newbie question here:

Thinking of upgrading from an Onkyo SR707 to the 3009. The 3009 outputs at 140 watts, where the 707 is 100. My speakers are rated at 110. Would I need to upgrade the speakers by going to the 3009?

Thanks all
post #538 of 902
Quote:
Originally Posted by boucaner View Post

Newbie question here:
Thinking of upgrading from an Onkyo SR707 to the 3009. The 3009 outputs at 140 watts, where the 707 is 100. My speakers are rated at 110. Would I need to upgrade the speakers by going to the 3009?
Thanks all

The short answer is no.
post #539 of 902
Quote:
Originally Posted by boucaner View Post

Thinking of upgrading from an Onkyo SR707 to the 3009.

Your going to really like the 3009. smile.gif

I still believe OneCall still has them in stock.
post #540 of 902
Quote:
Originally Posted by boucaner View Post

Newbie question here:

Thinking of upgrading from an Onkyo SR707 to the 3009. The 3009 outputs at 140 watts, where the 707 is 100. My speakers are rated at 110. Would I need to upgrade the speakers by going to the 3009?

Thanks all

No way bro. You'll be fine. Usually speakers rated at a certain wattage can handle almost double the power. I find this with my Polk Rti A7 speakers. I'm supplying them 500 watts and they are rated at 300 watts. I have no problems. They are usually not being cranked to the max anyway.
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