The "Official" Onkyo TX-NR3009 Owners Thread - Page 20

If you are curious, post 556 in this tread has details of the system and setup. My room is also small, and room size/configuration may affect whether addition of heights versus wides has more 'appreciable' impact on the perceived sound image (for those who would consider such options). Regarding the effect of speaker brand/model on width of soundstage without the addition of 'wide' speakers, I use Infinity Primus speakers--not the best, I know, but I believe that imaging is a real strength of that speaker line. I am admittedly no purist; given a two channel music source I will almost always prefer to listen via a 4.x configuration versus a 2.x configuration. However, I do not like 5.x for music listening; I think the center channel negatively impacts the soundstage. Having said that, I salute those who do not appreciate processed/upmixed sound, but I salute from afar; I have been a surround sound nut since the SQ/QS days.

Height channels have much less to do with a larger sweet spot than off axis response. The surround channels also have very little to do with your front soundstage and the related sweet spot that you're referencing. The "sweet spot" has much more to do with your front 3 channels and their off axis response's. Obviously wider off axis response will help give you a better sound "bubble" that surround mixes try to give, but that's why dedicated surround speakers are often bipole or dipole.

I did skim that post and found it interesting. I know that for my speakers, the soundstage is big, wide and decently deep. High or wide channels would make the soundstage sound unnatural, since they are tremendous at reproducing, accurately, the source signal. I've always heard good things about the infinity line, but admittedly have never heard them. I have heard quite a few other pretty darn good speakers and think that the ones I ended up with compare very favorably.

I like the enveloping sound of surround as much as everyone else, but I'm not looking to put myself among the orchestra or the band. I'm trying to hear whatever I'm listening to as if it were live and I was sitting in the crowd, albeit right up front. Hence, why I generally prefer 2.X for most music except for blu-ray concerts or multichannel SACD's. I just got a new center channel and can honestly say that now that I have a matching front L/C/R I really don't mind the center being in the mix at all. I won't up mix, but for multi-channel sources it sounds fantastic. I now need to update my subs because I can clearly hear the difference when I cross and when I don't. The bass just isn't as accurate when I cross now, but I want a little more thump that a two 8" drivers (even though they're ML-TL) can't really deliver.

I agree that surround is awesome, but only to the extent where the number of speakers you're running matches that of the mix. The only up mix I can get on board with is 5.x to 7.x. The wides and heights don't do anything for me, at least in my current setup. If I had a bigger room, then it may become a factor I'd consider, but I don't exactly consider my room tiny. It's a medium sized room that's open to other spaces.

Everyone's situation is different and you do what sounds best to you. Now to get back to twiddling my thumbs as I impatiently wait for my new sub to arrive

I really like the heights because I use Screen Centered Dialogue & it really helps this old coot hear the dialogue a lot better.

The 3009 is rated at 140 watts per channel, so if i used a speaker like the JTR Noesis, which is rated at 4 Ohm, does that mean, i'll be getting 280 watts/channel?? Why would anyone need separate amps if you're getting so much clean power to every speaker from just a receiver?

First headroom and second there are no power ratings for 4 ohms so no one actually knows if the power doubles down. I would guess that it is highly unlikely.

Third, inefficient speakers.....if you have them then 140 watts at 3-5 meters isn't going to cut it for loud volumes.

For efficient speakers it's probably more than enough and no one in their right mind would probably recommend an external amp.

The 3009 will deliver about 62 Watt per channel at 6 Ohm all channels driven due to power supply constraints. The 5009 handles barely more. This has been verified by independent reviews and can be calculated roughly by: : 1100 (max) - (power needs of preamp) / (efficiency power amps, appr. 2) / 9 (number of channels = 61.1 Watt (appr.)
This is nothing special just for the Onkyo but for all similar units sharing almost identical specs in this class.
At 4 Ohm higher currents needed will deplete the available power supply much faster. If the setup has been set for 4 Ohm speakers the available power output will be even lower than for 6 Ohm due to current limiter activity.

Separate amps will usually have a much larger power supply in sum for all channels combined and provide a much larger heat sink area in sum thus delivering more power and higher output levels for an extended period of time.
If an individual channel is been driven alone, it will have higher power capabilities limited by its output transistor(s) current capabilities and the available heat sink area to keep its temperature profile within certain limits.
The more channels are active and driven at the same time the less power per channel is available.
Edited by gurkey - 10/25/12 at 7:01am

Can you link to these independent reviews that have calculated this?

Sure:
http://audiovision.de/index.php?id=62&tid=535
Unfortunately this is a German print magazine and its online issue 10/2012 has to paid for. The link points to the download for EUR 1.99
Both the Onkyo TX-NR5010 and the Marantz 7007 have been reviewed and measured.
This is one of a few magazines, which not only measure power output by single channel and stereo output but for seven channels too.

The results (@ 220VAC line voltage):
Onkyo 5010: 7x 78 Watts RMS 6 ohm (only seven channels have been tested at once)
Marantz 7007: 7x 70 Watts RMS 6 Ohm (only seven channels have been tested at once)
Recalculated for 9 channels:
Onkyo 5010: 7x78 = 560 / 9 = 60.7 Watt per channel
Marantz 7007: 7x70 = 490 / 9 = 54.5 Watt per channel

I remember somehow that there has been a review by an US-magazine before, which measured almost the same values for an earlier model.
Maybe i can find this too.
Edited by gurkey - 10/26/12 at 4:35am

I was hoping someone on this forum can help me. I recently got a Onkyo 3009 as a replacement for a broken and unrepairable Onkyo 1007. However I am slightly concerned about some of the sounds I am hearing.

I first noticed this noise at the start of Transformers 3 where the Paramount logo flies around, it gave a crackle from the speakers. It didn't sound right so I checked all wiring and swapped speakers around but still got the crackle. I assumed it was part of the sound mix.

Today I listened to some music though the net feature and again I get a hiss/crackle/farting noise from my speakers at certain points in songs. I am not music savvy, so can't tell if it is from the highs, mids or lows I just know it doesn't sound right. Again I swapped speakers and changed between pure/direct/all channel stereo and it still occurred. I even put on my headphones and it came through those too. (Beyer 770dt)

I would be happy if it is the fact that the quality of sound coming through spotify was not good enough hence the crackle, but I doubt that is the case.

If it helps I am running Mission 34e as fronts, Q Acoustics 2010 as surrounds and Wharfdale Diamond 9.0 as rears. Also I have a Bk Monolith as a sub. I believe the sub is set to 120hz and all the speakers at 80hz. Although putting the amp on direct bypasses all that and the dodgy sound still happens.

If it is the amp I will send it back and look again, but considering this will be the 3rd amp I will have sent back in the past 3 months I think my wife will have kittens.

Any suggestions? And thanks for reading

You shouldn't need a link. ALL receivers operate this way. Manufacturers rate their power with only 1 or 2 channels driven. Some manufacurers list their power sampled at a single frequency, say 1000Hz, not full frequency 20 to 20K Hz. Both of these practices will give a power rating WAY higher than what is possible driving all channels full frequency as you do during normal operation. Generally the actual available power will be 50% to 70% of the manufacture's rated power. Weather this is enough power for you will depend on your listening habits, room size and speaker efficiency. But suffice to say that a person doesn't need to be "out of his mind" to recommend one or more external power amps.

Most "reviews" of receivers these days are at a "consumer" level and as such don't really test the receiver. They often simply regurgitate the information given them from the manufacturer. Most authors are primarily concerned with the digital features available in the receiver and/or weather it will stream the latest internet site. Sound and Vision magazine still does a pretty thorough test although not as good as when the magazine was known as Stereo Review and tests were conducted by Julian Hirsch. I think this is sad as many hobbyists take for granted the amplifier section, indeed the whole analog section, of their equipment. This leads to less power, and poorer sound.

I use an XPA5 power amp (200w per channel 8 ohms ALL channels driven) for the center, fronts, and wides. That leaves only the heights and surrounds to be powered by the receiver. Since the receiver is only driving four channels, and those channels are relatively quiet, I don't anticipate a shortage of power in my system.

Thanks, already knew all this. Just hadn't seen a bench test of the 3009/5009 yet and was curious where he got his information. Hopefully you helped somebody else though.

OK. I guess it was your "nobody in their right mind" quote that puzzled me...

Without this first part you'd probably be justified, but I prefaced the latter part of my statement with this. If you have 90+ sensitive speakers that are truly 90+ sensitive speakers and not misinformation, you really don't need a ton of power to produce huge SPL's and the odds of your receiver running out of juice before the speakers run into thermal compression is unlikely.

With only two speakers rated at a true 90db/W/m at a distance of 15 feet and 65 watts of power you get 100.9db which is right around reference. Given that most receivers are rated at more than that (and hit at least that) with two channels driven and are capable of more than that for transient peaks efficient speakers really don't need more power than a receiver can deliver.

Given the same set of circumstances with 5 speakers you have 104.9db. More than enough, especially since not every channel will require 65 watts at once.

So like I said, for efficient speakers an external amp is unnecessary, just a good receiver. What's the point of a big power amp if your 93db/W/m speakers run into thermal compression at 80-120 watts?

My advice would be to maybe ask next time instead of jumping to conclusions, or reading the whole post as well

Question for all owners:

While the 3009 has been sitting idle in Off/Standby mode for days, I went up to it and put my hand on top of the casing and towards the back. It was burning hot! I know the unit runs hot when its On but should it be this hot to the touch when its OFF?

I am having trouble figuring out if this is normal behavior. Thanks guys.

I am also trying to figure out how to do a "hard" Power Down because the Off button does not seem to do it.

Power down / hard reset: Just disconnect the mains cable.
If your unit stays hot in the rear (video processor and HDMI active) then you probably got HDMI control active, which keeps the HDMI board alive even during standby.
Switch HDMI control off (setup) and your system will power down (almost) completely.

For those of you that have the O-remote app, the latest update is a must. It is optimized for xx09 and later receivers. The developer has added direct access buttons to switch audyssey curves(movie/music) or defeat it. He also added the home button but with the direct access keys this is a redundant feature. For those who have yet to purchase the app, it's a must have. Way better than factory app. Great work Robert!
https://itunes.apple.com/ca/app/oremote/id393837174?mt=8
Edited by nismo604 - 10/27/12 at 10:51pm

I just picked up a 3009 open box. The sales accosciates that helped me would probably fail 7th grade if enrolled today. The Audyssey Mic wasn't in the demo pack so they grabbed me another mic that they said would work with the 3009. The mic model is the ACM1H and the number on the bottom is 112811.

Is this the correct mic for the 3009 or do I need to go over to shop onkyo and purchase the correct model?

I have HDMI pass through and mine is only Luke warm when left in standby overnight. Something seems wrong with your unit. Is it in a cabinet?

Well about half of the receiver metal casing is warm but the rear right corner of it is actually quite hot. This is observed while the receiver is OFF but the main power plug is still connected in the back of the unit. As soon as I turn on the unit, the number "50.0" appears on the right side of the front display under the word "HDMI" which I can only assume is the temperature reading (not sure if its Celcius or Farenheit though, it doesn't say C or F). BTW, when I am actually playing a movie I have dual USB fans on top of the unit sucking the air upwards from inside the case to keep the thing cool (as many of you guys already are doing).

I checked my settings for HDMI and they are:
HDMI Control (RIHD) = Off
HDMI Through = CBL/SAT

Is there anybody here that recommends pulling out the power plug from the back of the receiver if the unit is only used on the weekends? I am thinking that this will stop the waste of electricity throughout the week and might also prolong the life of the unit but I don't know what negative side effects there is.

Thx again fellows for any input you can provide on this.
Edited by Upgrader - 10/28/12 at 6:20pm

There's your problem, turning on your HDMI through keeps the HDMI board active even though the receiver is off. Unless you watch a lot of TV without the receiver on, I suggest you turn this off.

I agree, although I will say I don't think it should be getting as hot as he is saying it is in that one corner. I've accidentally left the HDMI through on before when I was messing with the settings. The receiver stayed warm, but never got super hot. Who knows, maybe it has to do with the ventilation the receiver is getting.

this is the one that came with my 3009






Edited by apelbaum - 10/29/12 at 10:44am

The one I have has the # on the box ACM1H. The # on the bottom of the mic is 062711.

I agree. Mine has just stayed warm when I had HDMI through on.

Well I set "HDMI Through" to OFF and after 4 hours I am still getting a VERY WARM rear right corner. So right now every option on the HDMI menu is set to OFF and the dam receiver is still very warm.

Does anybody actually pull the power plug off from the back of the receiver after turning it off? And will doing this make the receiver "forget" its EQ settings or any other settings?

Placement can't be the problem because the receiver is sitting at the top of an Audio rack by itself with at least 2 feet of space around it and 4 feet of space above it.

Either I have a bad unit or the unit is normal and you guys are probably used to its heat load.

Hi Upgrader,also try turning off Network (if possible).

When you turn the receiver off are there any lights still lit on the display? Just like when HDMI through was engaged the front display should have said HDMI even when it was off. Are there any lights lit now?

A hard reset? No you shouldn't lose any EQ settings, although if it fixes your problem it would be a small price to pay. Simply running audyssey again that is.

There fixed it for you

I know my unit inside and out and I would have noticed if the rear right hand corner was running fire hot when it was off. Oh yea, and the temperature monitoring I have would have let me know as well. I don't think it's a stretch to assume the other guys who own this unit would have noticed as well.

"When you turn the receiver off are there any lights still lit on the display?"

Well ... as a matter of fact there was one tiny light on. It shows as "Z3" and I just used the Zone button on the remote to turn it off. I'll check the temperature again in a couple of hours and report back if this worked.

Is it possible that this could cause this problem?

I also went to Network and set DHCP to OFF just in case that was the problem.

So you had zone 3 on. Yes it is possible that having zone 3 on was keeping the temperature high, especially in a localized part of the receiver. To me it doesn't seem especially likely that it would make it as hot as you described, but then again I've never tried it so I'm not completely sure. Based on the localization of the heat and the fact that zone 3 was on I'm going to guess that when you go back and check it, it will be cooler.

Fingers crossed

That was it! The unit is cold now.

Thanks Einstein, JC, and dwop, your help is much appreciated.