MVC to AVI truly worth it?

Regarding editing JVC video in Vegas- Joe Clark has the most experience here. But if you want to edit your JVC video without all the conversion hassle, just drop your JVC video into PD10 and edit there. No conversion necessary.

I think this "bit of stutter" is the major problem, and not so much the conversion question from mvc to avi. Yes, I would always tend to use MVC, given the superior quality of the acquired footage. 2x1920x1080 of MVC is superior, compared with side-by-side half. But then you have the conversion issue, sure.

Since you come from 1080 60i, the conversion to 1080 24p will never ever be free from stutter. However, 720 60p as the PD10 is able to burn too, is free from stutter.

So, you have the choice, either to accept stutter of 1080 24p, or to accept the sligth quality drop from 720 60p.

Frankly spoken, I do not know what to recommend really. My personal choice would be 720 60p. But off course, you can see it the other way round.

There are only few possibilities to overcome that:
- either we shoot in 1080 24p
- or we have an MVC encoder that allows also to deliver 1080 60i/50i on 3D Blu Ray. But that is not specified, at least not for BD-ROM.

I would tend to use a workflow as simple as possible. Why not shoot in MVC, convert that with the mvc to avi converter, and import the avis in Vegas, pair the two tracks, edit them and produce a 3D Blu Ray in Vegas?

For the last step you have the choice of 720 60p or 1080 24p, what you use is up to you - and that may depend on your footage (if you have a lot of movement in it, then maybe 720 60p is better; or if you have more static footage, then 1080 24p could work too).

But I would avoid to go to sbs half - that takes out a lot of quality. And I would not like to shoot in sbs half.

Another workflow could be to use Neo - here Joe has described his way recently:

Neo ist something that you have to purchase, the mvc to avi converter is something that you have to purchse. For sure Neo is much more expensive then the mvc to avi converter.

I cannot say anything about the reasons why the mvc to avi converter is charged different - but I think that the mvc to avi converter is for a private user soo cheap that I do not understand the complains. And for a commercial user it should be worth even more. But ask that Peter Wimmer.

I think you will not be successfull to extract the mvc file from a 3D BD structure and import that again to Vegas. The reason for that is that you wll find 2 files - the independand and the dependand. Such a structure cannot be reimported in Vegas again, or you have to muxe it before you do so. But there is no MVC muxer available by now - beside high-priced commercial mvc encoder.

Sure, you can use sbs half to render that with the PD10 (or Vegas) to mvc. If you are a fan of giving 50% of the quality away do so!

MVC2AVI 0.31 produced wrong (progressive in Vegas) flag for cineform files. Need to change manually as interlaced.

I never shoot anything in side by side mode anymore. Even if you're end product will be a side by side video, it will look better if you start with the much more detailed and higher bitrate MVC files. Unless it's just some throw-away project where speed is the most important thing, shoot MVC. The difference in image quality is huge.

Here's a workflow I haven't tried yet, but that sounds like it might work well for simpler projects:

1. Import the JVC clips into PowerDirector 10 and do the basic editing there. Export the video as a 3D m2ts file at the highest quality.
2. Import that file into Vegas and de-interlace the video to 24p with the Yadif plug-in.
3. Re-import the 24p files into PD10 and burn to 3D Blu-ray with menus.

If you want to end up with 1080p, this seems like a decent approach that will get around the stuttering without resorting to conversion to 720p.

I'm a little out of the loop with these things. I haven't had much time to use PD10. Lately, I've been doing a lot of shooting and organizing, and not much editing. Am I missing something, or does this sound like a workable solution? My qualms involve the loss I noted in the m2ts file I exported. It seemed to have some noticeable artifacting that was not in the original. But that was one quick test.

Joe-I have the Yadif plugin installed but what render template parameters would you recommend to get a file out of Vegas in 24P that will be recognized in PD10?

Note - since I am using Sony TD10 clips I would skip the first step and begin with step 2, right? The only reason you started with PD10 is because you need to convert the JVC video to something that can import to Vegas, right?

Right. PD10 works with the native JVC MVC files and allows you to create a 60i m2ts 3D file from them. That means you could get around the stutter problems you have while going to 24p directly in PD10. With PD10, JVC users don't even have to have Peter's utility to get their files into an editable form. Once you're in Vegas, you should be able to use Yadif to de-interlace. I've used it to salvage some clips that Vegas by itself doesn't handle well.

As for the template to use, I'm not sure. That's one of the reasons I asked the question. I haven't done this in Vegas. Do you know if there's a way to export separate left and right 24p streams in Vegas? It can be done in Premiere.

One problem I see with this is that's it's convoluted and might introduce its own set of issues with image quality, if it works at all. Since we're waiting for an all-in-one solution, it would be just one more option for some of us to make do with.

Another option for me is to do all my editing in Premiere with Cineform intermediate files, de-interlace in the Adobe suite and export two 24p streams to PD10, so I can burn 3D Blu-ray with menus. But I haven't done that either, and I'm not sure what I'd run into doing it that way.

Isn't this fun?

BTW, did I mention how much I hate interlaced video? It's what forces us to jump through most of these hoops. That's why I've decided (99.9%) to upgrade my TD1 to the pro (HMZ1)version. It shoots at 24p. That doesn't help me with my existing video, though.

Joe- Unless there is a big skeleton in the Pany closet or something better from Sony comes along, I'm budgeting next year to get the Z10000. It has better options than the NX3D1 and does 5.1 audio as well.

I'll have to check on PD10 being able to pair two 24p streams, left and right eye but last I did look into this it was not capable. Only Vegas Pro and some other software like what comes with GoPro is all I have seen for pairing left and right cams. To date all my twin cam shooting has been in 60i twin cam settings. I need to put the TD10's in 2D 24p mode and see how they work in pairing. This is a test I really need to run before my next real shooting expedition. TD10 has a very high 2D 24p bit rate mode that could be stunning in 3D with a 5" IA.

I'll look forward to hearing about those tests.

I could have sworn I saw that PD10 could pair left/right clips, but it wouldn't be the first time I'm wrong.

No, the PD10 is not able to pair left and right clips - unfortunately not.

And yes, I always want to get the Z10000. Cannot be, that I convince Don to do so, and then do not acquire the new baby!

My next big step is going to be the dual camera rig. The thing I miss most is being able to shoot 3D wide. For most shooting, and macro work, I really like the JVC. But I have to have 24p.

Joe- What do you hope to achieve with a twin system that you can't with the SBE? Are you planning to shoot huge panorama 3D stuff Like I am?

Not really. The problem with the SBE is that it limits you to about 1.2x normal on the zoom. Pull out more than that and you start to see the mirrors. As you well know, most consumer cameras have a limited zoom range, with the greatest practical limitation being how wide you can go. It's just not possible, even with the best of them, to go wide enough to get a "cinematic" feel to your footage. With 3D, the wide angle is even more limited. My JVC, at its widest, is about 42mm (35mm equivalent). That's not very wide. You lose even that and a bit more when you put on the SBE. The results are well worth it, but it definitely limits the kinds of things I can shoot. Ironically, the scope of the video feels "constrained" in those SBE shots because you can't back up far enough in many situations.

The other side of the coin is that certain kinds of shots are impossible for me without the SBE. For instance, I shot some footage of an area of Shaw's Garden the other day that I'd never shot before (but I shot without the SBE). The area I wanted to get was inaccessible by foot (and about 150 feet away). I zoomed out all the way for the establishing shot, then zoomed in for MSs and CUs. The shots were great in 2D, but because of the distance in the ES and the zoom in the others, the images were flat as pancakes. So, the next day, I went out with the SBE to get the same shots again. It solved the problem of image flatness. There's a world of difference, even though the shots look pretty much identical in 2D. On the other hand, the "flat" establishing shot looks a whole lot better because I could zoom out to full maximum with the JVC without the SBE. In the edit, I plan to use the wide shot with a 3D title over it to enhance the sense of depth, before I cut to the closer SBE shots.

It's a balancing act, just as I suspected it would be when I ordered the SBE. The percentage of shots I can use is about what I thought it would be - pretty low. The impact of those shots (because of the dramatically increased sense of depth) is big.

With a dual camera rig, I could get those same shots at maximum wide angle with the interaxial I want, at 24p, and with the full zoom range when I need it. I'm just not looking forward to the tradeoff in convenience (and the exposure difficulties I anticipate). I'll be tapping you and Frank for your experience in this area when I make the leap.

I've also just learned that the MVCtoAVI converter may have an issue with 24p (23.97) video. Apparently it does with Sony clips. Until I know for sure about the JVC clips, I'm not upgrading to the HMZ1. 3D is full of "gotchas" right now.

One of the problems I didn't anticipate was the clipping of the left side image on my TD10 when shooting those big wide scenes. If you build a twin cam bench, be sure to be careful about the full wide lens and seeing the filter ring. As you know the TD10 and yours in 2D mode uses the left camera which is off to the side. I, too, have to zoom in to about 40mm to remove the filter stack if I have both the UV and Polarizer added. But putting them on really helps for those long range shots. Don't need the polarizer except over water though.

I mentioned this in another thread, but thought I should repeat it here because I commented on the topic:

I got an e-mail from Peter Wimmer, author of MVCtoAVI, who says that if the program doesn't handle 24p files properly, all I need to do is send him a sample and he'll make sure it does. I've found Peter very responsive to my questions and requests.

I'll definitely be upgrading to the JVC HMZ1 soon. 24p is not an ideal frame rate, but for the kinds of shooting I do most often, it will work very well. I've hated interlaced video formats for as long as I can remember. They're way too messy.

Retraction. After some more serious discussion with fellow AVSers, I've decided to wait for reviews of the Panasonic Z10000 3D camcorder.

Don't know! He did mention he was to have eye surgery soon but I hope he is doing OK. He was really an inspiration to me setting up a twin camera system for my large scene video projects I'll begin shooting next year. I miss his participation.