New Sony HXR-NX70U has crippling problem with "pulsating" blurriness

I've had my NX70 for two days after saving $$ for months in great anticipation. I also have an HDR-CX550V which I love.

My tests of the NX70 over the last two days reveal some disturbing problems. They are so bad I might return the camera - but the problem is there are no other viable alternatives in this price range from Sony, Canon or Panasonic that have the features I want. I'm freaking out, man!

I'm working on creating a video that shows the problems , and will try to post it tonight. Until, then here are descriptions of some of the problems, I'm wondering if anyone else is also experiencing them. I'd really appreciate feedback from other NX70 owners.

In low-light, when the gain is anywhere above 12dB and Active Steady Shot is engaged, there is a pulsating effect in the video, about 1 to 2 times a second, where the image will blur. Blur, sharp, blur, over and over again. Does not happen with my HDR-CX550V when shooting the same subject at the same time. (BTW, the 550V has slightly better low-light performance) It reminds me of Auto Focus hunting, but it also seems to happen when focusing manually. The effect is so horrible that it rendered footage of my cat Max pretty much unviewable. The problem seems worse when the camera is pointed at subjects with fine detail - the hair on the cat, cloth, books in a bookshelf, etc - but it is there on anything, just harder to notice. It happens if the cam is on a tripod or is hand-held. It happens in HD-FX in both 60p and 60i. The problem is NOT evident on the LCD screen while shooting, but if you export the video to a computer, you notice it right away. It is also there if I plug in via HDMI to a TV. I noticed it immediately in the first vids I watched.

The problem is horrible, and unexpected. I've never seen anything like it on my CX550V.

If I turn off the Active Steady Shot and just go with Optical (standard), it is not as bad but it is still there.

In general the Steady Shot is not nearly as good as the 550V - this was also mentioned in reviews of the CX700V such as this one:
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...Comparison.htm
(the NX70 seems to have the same internal "engine" as the CX700V, as far as I can tell)

The other thing I noticed is the color is muted compared to my CX550V - it makes me wish there was a "saturation" control that I could turn up. The sky is a duller, more navy blue, instead of the beautiful cobalt blue I get from the CX550V. The auto white balance is not nearly as accurate.

In general, the NX70 has a terrible picture compared to the CX550V! This is unexpected and disturbing. The clock in ticking on the return window - need some feedback soon. I have not yet called Sony support, but will do so as soon as I have a video posted they can watch.

Any comments greatly appreciated!

Worried and sad,

Steve

Thanks, gso, I do appreciate the reply.

The problem I am experiencing is not focus hunt, because it happens when the auto-focus is off. It is something else. BTW, the dread "rocker" thing was a non-issue for me - a little touchy, but I can get smooth zoom with no problems.

Steve

Wow, Ungermann, I am impressed by your knowledge and insight! I think you have hit the nail on the head.

Unfortunately, it does not help me with this problem (although I will certainly keep it in mind when editing - I do use Vegas Pro 10 (about to upgrade to 11 ) . Yesterday, I did an exhaustive comparison of the NX70 against the CX550V and put some of the results into a little video:

NOTE: The video below contained some inaccuracies; a new video has been posted
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e33EN-Ubi3Y
NEW video with better information:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cEHhvpfhos

As far as compression, I both cams are identical at 1920x1080 with the 60i frame rate, but the new "PS" Mode (1920x1080 60p) is different. The NX70 exhibits the pulsing pixelation in low light at 1920x1080/60i, but the CX550V does not. I see the problem even with direct HDMI output to my Samsung LCD TV. I'm speculating that the changes Sony made to the CODEC to accommodate the new 24p and 60p frame-rates might have broken something. From the NX70 specs:
---
Video Recording Format:
HD MPEG-4 AVCHD format compatible+1080/60p original format)
MPEG-2 PS (Same as DVD)

Recording Frame Rate NTSC Mode
PS (28 Mbps) 1920 x 1080/60p/16:9
FX (24 Mbps) 1920 x 1080/60i/16:9
FH (17 Mbps) 1920 x 1080/60i/16:9
HQ (9 Mbps) 1440 x 1080/60i/16:9
LP (5 Mbps) 1440 x 1080/60i/16:9
FX (24 Mbps) 1920 x 1080/24p/16:9
FH (17 Mbps) 1920 x 1080/24p/16:9
--

If it were just the pixelation and the zoom-rocker problem, I might be able to grit my teeth and live with it. But, add in the washed out colors (no way to adjust saturation on the cam and I'm not going to constantly apply hue/Saturation effects in post-production), crappy auto-while balance (I know that "Pros" are not supposed to use Auto but come on, this is $3K unit and it ought to work at least as good in Auto as the Cx550V), markedly inferior Steady Shot compared to the CX550V, worse auto-focus hunting, less effective zoom in Active Steady Shot, only two brightness settings for the LCD, WAY worse menu layout on the touch screen, impossible to display recording time on the display, no GPS on/off switch - all the other great features don't matter. I just don't like the camera. I've started the return process.

I'm very sad and frustrated. I thought this camera was going to be the ONE. Now I don't know what to do. I've spend months carefully considering and rejecting dozens of other units from all manufacturers ranging in price from $900 to the $4K Sony HXR-NX5U. At this point, even though I can't afford it and it is way to large for my purposes, the only one left is the NX5U. I'd like to rent one to see if I can live with it. No local firms rent.

Anyone have any ideas about rentals where they are willing to ship the camera?

Thanks,

Sad,

Steve

Ungermann, quick question. In Vegas, when I click on a clip and select properties, it displays info, for example "1920x1080 12 " . Is that last number the GOP value?

Thanks,

Steve

AFAIK, Sony does not support that. My beloved CX550V also does not support it. The modes on the NX70U seems identical to the CX550V, with the addition of the PS 1920x1080 60p and the 24p FX and FH modes.

If I intend to publish 1280x720 at 30P (for example, YouTube). I shoot in the HQ (9 Mbps) 1440 x 1080/60i/16:9 mode and convert in post.

Now that I have been looking at alternatives, I see that JVC, Canon and Panasonic offer that 720, 60p mode.

I just posted another test video, will continue to test under various conditions for as long as I have the camera:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cEHhvpfhos

I'm learning some things that make me dislike it less, but the colors are still less vivid than my CX550V and the iAuto white balance at twilight is messed up. I was able to compensate with a manual "one push WB calibrate" using a white sheet of paper.

I'm wondering if Sony deliberately tuned down the saturation a bit, expecting pros to fix that in post. The CX550V does over saturate reds - roses are way to red, the colors bleed a bit. But the CX550V reproduces sky blue better.

Steve

[quote=Ungermann: Now you have progressive in the NX70, why not using it for YouTube? 24p for 24p, or 60p for 30p.[/QUOTE]


Well, I shot interlaced with the 550V because that was all it had. I would use the lower bit rate to save disk space for projects that would only go to YT at 720p. Sure, I would rather shoot 60p - but I won't be keeping the NX70 because it has so many problems. And, right now, I can't find anything from JVC, Canon, Panasonic or any other manufacturer for $3K or less that meets all my requirements. Each comes close, but has some kind of flaw or is lacking a feature I require. I'll mention a few of the problems with the other cam's I've considered, but bear in mind that the things I mention are just some of the reasons I've rejected each one.

For example, the Canon FX100 has no internal flash memory and I'm not going to spend another $1K for the compact flash cards I would need. The Canon XA10 has internal memory and looks great on paper, but has buttons on the XLR pod that rattle like crazy. The JVC GY-HM150U has a fantastic feature set (love the intervalometer) and uses inexpensive SDXC cards, but can't take stills and the CCD chips will not give me the low-lux performance I need. The screen is too small and has insufficient resolution. It also lacks a 3.5mm mic input which means I would need to always use the XLR pod and a 3.5mm to XLR adapter to record from my Rode StereoVideo Mic. Also, JCV is cagey about the low-lux specs (actually about all the specs and they don't seem to send it to reviewers - suspicious) and has not answered my emails. The Panny AG-HMC150PJ would be perfect but is has no 1080 60p and the highest bit rate mode is only 21 Mbps (not as good as my little CX550V). It is also waaay to massive and has no 3.5mm mic input (at least I can't find it on the specs pages). And, none of the above have GPS, which I DO use all the time to geotag photos for Panoramio.

So, I'm totally at a loss. WHY did Sony have to cripple the NX70 with crappy auto-focus, inaccurate manual focus and horrible white balance problems?!? (not the mention the zoom, but I can live with it). I mean, the little CX550V has none of those problems!

It is driving me nuts. Perhaps I should just go back to 35 mm film stills shot from the mud hut I feel like moving to ... my only hope is to try another NX70 - perhaps the one I have is defective? Are there any NX70 users listening? I really, really need feedback from other users - that is the main reason I started this thread.

Steve

Hi Ungermann,

I was looking at the 128 GB cards, on Amazon they were about $600. I see that the 64 GB are a lot cheaper, about $180.00. So maybee that would not be so horrible. And I do lust for the intervalometer ...

Slashcam reports that the XF100 performs worse in low-light than the NX70. "good" vs "very good" for the NX70. The NX 70 is barely adequate. Have you had a chance to use the XF100? I can't find the actual low-lux specs.
http://camcorder-test.slashcam.com/c...non-XF100.html

I really like vid cams that can do stills, but might not be able to get what I want. GPS is essential for a still cam, but if I repair the CX550V I would be able to use it for a B cam and also the GPS. BTW, for my purposes (outdoor travel stuff), GPS is a must for tagging for Panoramio. I don't need it for video. We each have our needs ...

How does Sony Vegas do with the Canon files? I've heard that one has to convert them before they can be edited with Vegas.

Regarding 720p, the resolution is just not enough for me. I'm a freak about focus and sharpness, and notice little things - the difference between 1920x1080 and 1280x720 is very glaring to my eyes. Now that I have looked at 1920x1080 60p and compared it 60i, it will be hard to go back. The motion is so much smoother. Heck, I with I could afford 2048!

Thanks again for your insight, I need the info!

Steve

Hi!

thanks again for putting up with me ... I can't thank you enough.

This is encouraging (re XF100), but I just called Canon and they flatly said that Vegas is not supported and would not be able to edit the MXF wrapper'd files. So, I am confused.

Do you own Vegas? How do you get the Canon files into Vegas for editing? Is there there a conversion utility, or can I just drag the files into the timeline the way I do with the Sony NX70 and CX550V files?

I used to use Premier but I abandoned it because I just hated the interface and it crashed a lot; I'm sticking with Vegas.

I'm glad to hear you actually owned both the NX70 and the XF100 and know firsthand that the low-lux is better on the Canon. I'm curious - say you put both cams at f1.8 , 1/60th and 24dB gain. The Canon is brighter? What about graininess/noise?

I'm really lusting after the intervalometer, because I do mostly two kinds of videography: indoor orchestra concerts and timelapse.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnD1Ev6kZlM

Steve

Thanks Gerald! I too found that Vegas 9 and 10 will open and edit the XF100's .mxf wrappered files with no problems.

I downloaded the XF100's manual and have been reading it. It has a lot of great features, but I see some things that bug me.

Can you confirm that each file clip is limited to 2 GB, (which one would string together) as opposed to a single giant file? I know that hypothetically multiple files is not a problem, but I prefer single big files for the 5 or 6 hour shoots I often do.

I'm also bugged that the can seems to use the 8.3 file name format. I've grown very fond of the Sony yyyymmddhhmmss.m2ts format that sony uses - each file has a timestamp as part of the name.

Also wondering about sharpness. I've been able to download some of the raw 50 Mbps files, and they seem soft and a bit blurry.

The tests I've seen with the XF100 autofocus look impressive. I like the way you don't have to take off the hood for nightshot illumination. The controls looks very nice (zoom on handle), and seems like Canon gave a lot of thought to the button layout.

Here's a link to last nights NX70 vs CS550V side-by -side comparison in low light.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeaS1N-zuGM

Do you have any way to upload a high-res 1920x1080 progressive file that I can download and examine?

Thanks!

Steve

Thanks, Ungermann. I'm wondering if FAT is involved when saving to a card, as opposed to internal memory? I will test with an SDHC card in my CX550V tonight. I typically save the long shoots to internal, and transfer with PMB.

I did discover to my annoyance that PMB will not play (or even see) the .mxf files, but they play OK in VLC. Contrast this to the m2ts files, which VLC can't handle without stuttering - I assume this is due to the higher compression.

I will try to find a card reader and look at the files on the card, to determine if the time-stamping is coming from PMB. I do know that the stamps are accurate to the time of the shot, not the time of the transfer. It is also possible that PMB is not only putting on a time stamp, it might be concatenating the files into single, giant files. That raises the possibility that the Canon EF utility (or whatever it is called) perhaps might be able to do the same?

Hey Ungermann and Gerald - if you guys still have FX100's, I would love to see some tests of the following, all at 50 Mbps:
* Low light - how about a room with a 100w bulb, and shoot at 1/60 with various gain, 0 to 24dB, using auto-focus and auto-white balance
* Outdoor zoom tests, with and without ND filters ( I hear reports of vignetting with the ND filter engaged - this would be very bad and would make me cRaZY 0_o)
* Zoom with and without stabilization - on the Sony's, Active Steady shot boosts the effective zoom from 10x to 14x. This happens because the sensor is way larger than 1920x1080, and the Active steady shot uses a smaller portion of the sensor so that the shot image can "float" around within the bigger sensor space. (this is what gives the CX550V the phenomenal stabilization, it is very, very nice).

I'm probably going to send the NX70 back tomorrow. It is boxed and ready to go. I'm really interested in the XF100, just still a bit nervous. If I get it, I will be spending nearly $1K more than what I paid for the NX70, after factoring in two 64GB CFcards and two batteries.

Thanks again!

Steve

Good call, Ungermann! I just looked at the raw contents of an SDHC card that I used for a time-lapse shoot. When PMB imported the file, it created a 3.66 GB file named 20110317173355.m2ts. On the card, that imported file came from two raw files, 00264.MTS and 00265.MTS, located on the card in G:\\PRIVATE\\AVCHD\\BDMV\\STREAM . 00264.MTS was created on the card on Thursday, March 17, 2011, 5:33:55 PM

This gives me great hope that the Canon import utility will do the same thing.

Would still love to see some of the test shots I described in my previous post.

Thanks again,

Steve

Hi;

I found the raw .mxf files here:

http://dl.xplore.tv/xf

Steve