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Color saturation without equipement?

post #1 of 46
Thread Starter 
I know is impossible to get the correct setting without proper calibration.

My question is, if you don`t have a equipment, how do you set the color saturation? Let`s say you are going to a friend`s house and he ask you to set the color saturation calibration the best you can.

What do you do? Do you play a dvd that you know by heart how it looks? you compared a skin tone from yourself in a picture shown on the tv?

There are any general rules?
post #2 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by booker21 View Post

I know is impossible to get the correct setting without proper calibration.

My question is, if you don`t have a equipment, how do you set the color saturation? Let`s say you are going to a friend`s house and he ask you to set the color saturation calibration the best you can.

What do you do? Do you play a dvd that you know by heart how it looks? you compared a skin tone from yourself in a picture shown on the tv?

There are any general rules?

Blue filter and calibration disc, then additional adjustments viewing actual content
post #3 of 46
The color control isn't saturation, it's luminance.

I would attempt saturation. Without a meter, but I've never seen a global saturation control.

Setting the color control without a meter, the fall back is the blue filter method.
post #4 of 46
Thread Starter 
Thanks for te quick response.

I have tried the blue filter but for some reason is way off.
I know this will make no sense to get an idea but the blue filter showed me a 59 color setting while when doing it by eye I set it between 45-50

I searched reviews from my tv and most of them set them at 52 but even that setting seems a bit high comparing to my monitor display and my iPad as display references.

I have a plasma lg 42pg60 model by the way.
post #5 of 46
I'm guessing that there is one, or two things wrong:

1) Your display phosphors do not correctly match the blue filter.
2) Your display has 'Red' push, due to decoder inaccuracies. Using a light meter, adjust 'Red' for 21% of white
post #6 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

The color control isn't saturation, it's luminance.

The color control on most consumer displays, including his, affects both saturation and luminance.
post #7 of 46
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by delphiplasma View Post

I'm guessing that there is one, or two things wrong:

1) Your display phosphors do not correctly match the blue filter.
2) Your display has 'Red' push, due to decoder inaccuracies. Using a light meter, adjust 'Red' for 21% of white

i believe it has red push. But i dont have access to any service where i can solve this.

The only place were i can find something close is the User settings but i have only
R
G
B

I believe this is where i calibrate the color temp.
post #8 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

The color control on most consumer displays, including his, affects both saturation and luminance.

Doesn't it mostly affect luminance, with large changes in the control needed to have any appreciable affect on saturation?
post #9 of 46
I gather if you have no cms, you'll have to bite the bullet and adjust for 21 percent red and reduced blue and green output. Or get the best balance between all
post #10 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by delphiplasma View Post

I gather if you have no cms, you'll have to bite the bullet and adjust for 21 percent red and reduced blue and green output. Or get the best balance between all

true, though my preference is to focus on getting red right
post #11 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

The color control on most consumer displays, including his, affects both saturation and luminance.

Saturation is effected by the adjusting luminance especially the inner colors.

But the control is for color luminance.
post #12 of 46
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by delphiplasma View Post

I gather if you have no cms, you'll have to bite the bullet and adjust for 21 percent red and reduced blue and green output. Or get the best balance between all

Oh. I´m not a vet on these things. I´m not sure how i can do that?

Are we talking about the user color (RGB) Settings? those aren´t for White balance?
post #13 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by booker21 View Post

Oh. I´m not a vet on these things. I´m not sure how i can do that?

Are we talking about the user color (RGB) Settings? those aren´t for White balance?

Yes the RGB High and RGB Low settings are for white balance, don't use those.

A CMS system come in a few different forms.
But they'll typically have controls for Red, Blue, and Green and then usally also for Cyan, Magenta and Yellow. For each color you'd have a either RGB settings or form of hue, saturation and brightness.

If you don't have a CMS controls then all you're left with is the color control and the tint control. So use the tint to get the best average error on the secondaries. Use the color control to get the correct luminance for Red. That's all you can do with those two controls.
post #14 of 46
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Yes the RGB High and RGB Low settings are for white balance, don't use those.

A CMS system come in a few different forms.
But they'll typically have controls for Red, Blue, and Green and then usally also for Cyan, Magenta and Yellow. For each color you'd have a either RGB settings or form of hue, saturation and brightness.

If you don't have a CMS controls then all you're left with is the color control and the tint control. So use the tint to get the best average error on the secondaries. Use the color control to get the correct luminance for Red. That's all you can do with those two controls.

Thank you. I guess I'll have to leave it this way. I'm happy though.
Since im not comparing to another display all the time I don't even notice the red push
post #15 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by delphiplasma View Post

I'm guessing that there is one, or two things wrong:

1) Your display phosphors do not correctly match the blue filter.
2) Your display has 'Red' push, due to decoder inaccuracies. Using a light meter, adjust 'Red' for 21% of white

He mentioned in his first post that he didn't have equipment.
post #16 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by booker21 View Post

i believe it has red push. But i dont have access to any service where i can solve this.

The only place were i can find something close is the User settings but i have only
R
G
B

I believe this is where i calibrate the color temp.

You won't be able to calibrate white balance without equipment.
post #17 of 46
Thread Starter 
i guess i`m stuck were i`m.

I`ll try to enjoy the movies without worrying about calibration then.

thanks for the help!
post #18 of 46
A light meter can be fairly cheap and easy to use for getting 21% red. Otherwise, adjust colour control to suit your taste
post #19 of 46
Thread Starter 
Sorry to bring this up. But this is driving me crazy.

Like I said I dont hace equipement. Only by eye and blue filter.

I see that I ahould aim to get red right. But how do yo do? It you dont have nothing to compare with?

How do I know if a skintone on that scene was suppouse to look like?

I know I wont go as deep as make people sunburn but still how do I know where I should leave it?

5 clicks doesn't give skintone sunburn. How do I know what is right?
post #20 of 46
At the very least a calibration DVD with reference images will give you are starting point. This is cheap.

However there are a couple caveats,
1. Even though we can accurately match by eye to fairly good tolerances our visual system can easily be fooled, where you may not know it has happened until you return to viewing normal images and compare images to our brain reference of things like skin tones. But this is still subjective when the original image you may be comparing to is based upon poor reproduction.
2. It is totally subjective to the person making the adjustments.

Dispite these 2 caveats, a reference DVD is still better than making random adjustments by guesswork.

There is really no easy way to be accurate without measurement tools.

If money is a problem for you, or the cost of software hardware to much there are cheaper options with HCFR where you can make your own probes.

The software/hardware suppliers posting in these forums all do lower cost starter packs which all return good results for the expense.
post #21 of 46
Yes, avs709 disc has a decoder pattern check. Use red filter and adjust for best red match. Not the best, but better than eyeballing live images
post #22 of 46
Thread Starter 
thanks. Unfortunate i don`t have a red filter. ONly the blue one.

i guess im stuck then
post #23 of 46
The color filter adjustments almost NEVER work right. It will not help you to have a red filter. I probably used color filters on 40 or 50 different TVs and there was never a "perfect" result with any of them. So I stopped using the filters. If you are going to adjust your result with your eyes when you are done using the filter... why bother using the filter then? Just use your eyes.

If you think the picture has too much red, try the next "cooler" color temperature setting. If you are using Warm2, change to Warm 1. If you are using Warm 1, change to Neutral or Standard or whatever the manufacturer has named it. Color temperature settings change the balance of red and blue.

"Red push" is something that was a problem for CRT video displays that does not seem to be an issue for digital displays (at least not since 2006 or so when I began measuring and evaluating consumer video displays). Having too much red, is NOT the same thing as red push. Red push was a result of how manufacturers designed the analog color decoder. There is no analog color decoder in video displays, you convert the video to YCbCr to be processed by the TV and just before display, the TV converts the data to RGB. The manufacturer COULD simply have the red gain set too high (or you could have a color temperature selected that is too warm).

If the problem is not the color temperature setting and you have too much red because the Red Gain control is set too high by the manufacturer, you can try reducing the Red Gain control and watching some video for 2 or 3 days to see if the red is better. If the red is not better or it is too weak, make another adjustment and watch more video for 2 or 3 days to see what you think of red in a wide range of TV programs or movies. Red Gain will be one of the CMS controls (color management)... different manufacturers have different names for these controls in their User Menu (might also be called Red High). But to KNOW you have the correct settings for RGB gain controls (and RGB offset controls) you really must have a meter and calibration software. Or hire a professional calibrator -- you can check the THX and ISF web sites to see if there are trained calibrators in your country. THX has been doing a lot of international calibration training classes.

There really is no easy way to set color balance correctly with your eyes. This is because your eyes "adapt" to color and luminance/brightness (actually, it is your brain that "adapts", not the eyes). This is why optical illusions exist (black and white and color illusions are both easy to demonstrate and there are many places on the internet to see optical illusions.
post #24 of 46
I guess if you just use your eyes, then you could have issues if the film matrial has been produced to have actors with sunburnt skin. The filter should help get you more or less ballpark as it is more consistent than program material. However, unless you have a pro monitor, blue mode will not be entirely accurate, but better than nothing if just doing a quick adjustment on the fly for a friend
post #25 of 46
I set Sammy e450 around 46-48.If I go any higher I get a red purple tinge too the screen.it would be good to go higher but the tinge gives a red purple smearing look.It looks a bit under saturated.
Edited by Vic12345 - 4/16/13 at 4:04pm
post #26 of 46
Thread Starter 
Red push came up because i said that while using the Blue filter the color saturation was obviously too much when using it.

Someone mentioned that this could be because my tv has red push. So while the blue is correct the reds aren`t.

This is why i asked about what thing i could do without a meter to get color saturation better? As a end user, not a technical person. I do have color patterns but those without equipment are kind o pointless.
I only have the TV end user menur. Which has color temp (set as warm) and color (i guess it control saturation and luminance) No Gain etc options (old 2008 tv)

Also i don`t know a scene by heart to know exactly what color saturation they should look to eye balling it.

Maybe there was some rule or something i could followed. I know the filters are not enough. To be honest at least on my case it WAY off.

When watching regular tv sometimes i feel it has saturation too high and when i change it after several days i feel the picture dull and this is driving me crazy since a long time.

I know Numbers means nothing but to give you an idea, i`m between 45 and 52. When using blue filters it gives me a 60.

So since 2011, when i opened this post i`m tweaking from 45 to 52 and in between. Crazy i know.
post #27 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by booker21 View Post

Red push came up because i said that while using the Blue filter the color saturation was obviously too much when using it.

Someone mentioned that this could be because my tv has red push. So while the blue is correct the reds aren`t.

This is why i asked about what thing i could do without a meter to get color saturation better? As a end user, not a technical person. I do have color patterns but those without equipment are kind o pointless.
I only have the TV end user menur. Which has color temp (set as warm) and color (i guess it control saturation and luminance) No Gain etc options (old 2008 tv)

Also i don`t know a scene by heart to know exactly what color saturation they should look to eye balling it.

Maybe there was some rule or something i could followed. I know the filters are not enough. To be honest at least on my case it WAY off.

When watching regular tv sometimes i feel it has saturation too high and when i change it after several days i feel the picture dull and this is driving me crazy since a long time.

I know Numbers means nothing but to give you an idea, i`m between 45 and 52. When using blue filters it gives me a 60.

So since 2011, when i opened this post i`m tweaking from 45 to 52 and in between. Crazy i know.

when you have no meter use de red filter option because that is the color used in skintone and skintones are VERY important smile.gif
post #28 of 46
FILTERS DO NOT WORK 98% OF THE TIME.

BLUE FILTERS DO NOT WORK

RED FILTERS DO NOT WORK BETTER

GREEN FILTERS DO NOT WORK BETTER EITHER

FILTERS DO NOT WORK 98% OF THE TIME.

FILTERS DO NOT WORK 98% OF THE TIME.

FILTERS DO NOT WORK 98% OF THE TIME.

FILTERS DO NOT WORK 98% OF THE TIME.

And just in case the message is not clear

FILTERS DO NOT WORK 98% OF THE TIME.

When you have no meter and test patterns, you can only set controls by guessing at correct settings by looking at images. You cannot do this for 1 minute or 1 hour or 1 day... you have to choose a setting and view content for 2 or 3 or 5 days and decide if the setting is too much or too little. Then make a change and view TV programs or movies for 2 or 3 or 5 days again before making another change. You must view content for a long time to decide if the control setting is too high or too low because there are differences in channels and differences in programs and differences in movies. When you have a good setting, you will stop changing the setting all the time. The Color control (and Tint) may not be the only control that has to be changed... you also have to understand Color Temperature and select the best Color Temperature setting.
post #29 of 46
What Doug said.
post #30 of 46
Point taken...not sure where the 98% statistics come from? Filters maybe a bit hit and miss due to the chromaticity mis-match to display phosphor. However, in a well designed display the blue only method can acheive fairly good results. In theory the blue only mode should work.
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