Do I need a digital audio cable?

My question to you is: Why not? You can get the right cable from a place like Monoprice.com for like $5, so go for it if you want to hear the audio from those apps.

I'm not familiar with your TV or receiver but, in general, there are two
ways to get sound from your TV's apps amplified by your receiver.

1. A digital (coax or optical) audio cable from the TV to the receiver (my TV
   supports only this option); or
2. A single HDMI cable with Audio-Return Channel (ARC, if your equipment supports it).

I second the recommendation for Monoprice's cables.

Why would you run a audio and HDMI cable to your TV? It seems redundant, since the HDMI cable carries both audio and video.

If you are using only HDMI, I don't believe there would be any line loss, especially if you have a pass through receiver (3D capable), which I believe your receiver is. You only need two lines for audio and video, with the older receivers, to avoid line loss.

If the TV executes 'apps' (or uses its OTA receiver), it produces audio which won't
normally be amplified or otherwise processed by a receiver. That is, unless
the TV delivers its audio to the receiver with a digital cable, through HDMI's ARC,
or some other means.

I assume, of course, that the OP is trying to get audio from his or her TV to a
Yamaha receiver for amplification.

The OP already mentioned he will be using a HDMI cable from the tv to the receiver. So my question still is, why does he need a 2nd cable to deliver audio? Wouldn't the rcv be able to amplify the signal whether it comes through via HDMI or by some other means.

If he has ARC capable equipment he's fine with just the HDMI cable, if not he needs the optical cable as well. Basically without ARC that HDMI cable is a one way street as far as actual signal transmission because it's an output port on your receiver and an input port on your TV. This really isn't a limitation of HDMI it's more the definition of a input and output port and there was really no reason to have your TV send audio back to the receiver so the ports weren't designed this way. Once you started seeing these apps in TV's they came up with ARC to resolve the issue so you can watch say netflix on your TV app and have the audio sent to your receiver even though the HDMI TV cord is technically hooked up to an output on your receiver and not an input.

If he doesn't have ARC you have HDMI from the output port of the receiver to the input port of the TV. Optical Audio cable from the output port of the TV to the input port of the receiver.

From what I read about the OP's receiver, it is capable of doing just that. Most new and mid to high expense AVRs can do this. My older receiver doesn't even have a HDMI port, only RCA/Component & Optical/Coax. Wouldn't most new receivers with HDMI, not need a dual cable set-up, if they are using HDMI? I know the new receiver I'm getting this week has a pass through HDMI connection, so I wouldn't need two cables from the tv or Blu Ray, if I was using HDMI.

From what I understand, those AVRs that are labeled "3D", have this pass through connection, and don't need dual hookups with HDMI. They are also labeled HDMI 1.4 capable.

What’s new in the HDMI 1.4 specification?
Audio Return Channel
The new specification adds an audio channel that will reduce the number of cables required to deliver audio “upstream” from a TV to an A/V receiver for processing and playback. In cases where a TV features an internal content source, such as a built-in tuner or DVD player, the Audio Return Channel allows the TV to send audio data upstream to the A/V receiver via the HDMI cable, eliminating the need for an extra cable.

Pass through is not the same as ARC. 3D pass through just means that it will allow the BD player to pass the 3D video signal through the receiver to get to the 3D display. If it did not have this feature then you would need to connect your BD player HDMI cable directly to the display then use the second HDMI port on the BD player (if it has one) to the receiver. If the BD player does not have a second HDMI port then you will need to connect to the receiver using the analog outs for full audio or use the digital optical/coax for limited audio.

ARC is a return channel to get audio from the display to the receiver. If both the display and the receiver are not ARC capable, then the audio and video signal will only go out to the display. You will never get the audio from the display to come out of the speakers connected to the receiver.

Think of standard HDMI (without ARC) as canoe on flowing river. That canoe can only go downstream without external power. Now think of ARC as adding a motor to the canoe which will now allow the canoe to go back upstream on the river. Without ARC (the motor), HDMI (the river) will only allow audio information (the canoe) to go downstream to the display.

How do you know if your devices ARC capable? I'm thinking my new receiver is, but I not sure if either of my tvs are. Sorry to go off topic here, but now I am wondering if I should have bought the a Blu Ray player with two HDMI connections.

I didn't realize that your tv had to be ARC capable as well. I thought it was just the receiver. Thanks for the analogy. I think I get it now.

Check the documentation. ARC is not ubiquitous yet so they would probably not gloss over it since it's something they can advertise as an added feature of their product.

Okay thanks. Just checked. My new Receiver and TV are ARC capable. Unfortunately they won't be paired together. I guess I'm going to need another blu ray player with two HDMI connections, for my older tv and new receiver. That is, if I want everything to run via digital connection. I'm guessing HDMI is a step up from Optical yes?

Btw, people over at the Blu Ray sub-forum are passing bad info if you are right.

Yes, HDMI is the better route only because of the copyright limitations imposed on non-HDMI digital outputs, not on the technology itself. I forget the exact limitations imposed, but they are there and if you want the full audio presentation then you will need to go with HDMI or analog outputs. If the audio stream is supported by the digital connections then it will be no different in quality from HDMI.

Not sure what the bad info being passed, but I'm guessing those guys would know much more than I would. I'm just going from what I've read and remembered.

Analog as in RCA? I would have thought Optical would be better than Analog. or is Optical Digital considered analog.

Those guys over in the Panny Blu Ray thread are stating that you only need one HDMI cable, between your Blu Ray and Rcv, even if you don't have a ARC capable device. My tv is not ARC compatible, but I'm only running video to it. So no issue with just one HDMI out cable to it from the rcv.

But those who don't have a ARC capable Rcvr will probably have to run two cables from the rcr and blu ray player.

Oh, and I just figured out that since both my blu ray player and receiver are ARC capable then I only need one cable between the two. I think I've got it now. I'm a little slow, sorry.

My brain is a bit fried today with trying to learn how to read mechanical synchros. Much easier now that I got some practice.

Yes, analog as in RCA, but not the digital coax. The analog are the 7.1 RCA outputs and not the single digital RCA out. Digital optical/coax (not HDMI) is indeed better than analog until you get to the formats that have digital copyright crap imposed on them.


I think you may still be confusing ARC and HDMI 1.4 with 3D pass through. They are not related and can be implemented individually. BD players have nothing to do with ARC. They will never have it because they will never need it. They are only an output device.

It would be easier to understand ARC if you drop the BD player from the picture when trying to understand how to connect a receiver to a TV with ARC vs. a TV without ARC. They BD player has no bearing on this at all.

They are correct that you will only need one HDMI cable for video and audio from your BD player to your receiver if your receiver has HDMI ports that can support all the features of the BD player. So if you have a simple 2D BD player all you need is a receiver with HDMI 1.3 ports. If you have a 3D player then you will need a receiver with HDMI 1.4 and 3D pass through. It's only if you have a 3D BD player and an older receiver with HDMI 1.3 ports that you will need 2 separate cables. HDMI from the player connects to the 3D capable TV then a separate HDMI (if the player has one), digital coax/optical, or individual analog RCA cable to your receiver for audio assuming you want sound going to your stereo's speaker.

The only time you will need two cables connecting the same device to the receiver is in the case of the display to the receiver and you want to hear audio that is originating from the display itself played on external speakers connected to the receiver. Things like Netflix via the TV. The TV is running the Netflix application, but the user wants to listen to the audio on his/her stereo speakers and not the little TV speakers. In this case if the receiver and TV are not ARC capable then the he/she would need to run a seperate cable digital optical/coax or regular stereo RCAs in order to be able to listen to the audio from the the Netflix stream on the TV.

What if I have a 3D BD player and a 3D Receiver but not a 3D tv? The tv has one HDMI connection. Should it even mater if I have a 3D Receiver if I don't have a 3D tv and will only be using 2D? The tv is too old to be running anything, especially Netflix. I will be running it through the BD Player.

If you don't have a 3D TV, then having a 3D blu ray player and 3D capable receiver really doesn't matter. You'll still only need one HDMI cable to the TV.

Of course I knew I would not be viewing 3D since I don't have a 3D tv. I didn't buy these devices b/c they were 3D capable. Rgr on the cable. Thanks

For all noobs, I recommend do not wall-mount yet, if running cable(s) maybe an issue. Set the TV up on a temporary stand, milk-crate whatever, hook everything up there, play it for a bit, then once you got everything ironed out, THEN deal with your in-wall cabling.

I don't run HDMI from my TV to my receiver. I run HDMI from my DVRs to the TV, then run the sound via light pipe to the receiver. Doing so gives a better S/N, by eliminating a second ground path between the TV and receiver. It also simplifies the remote game, as whatever source the TV is playing is what's heard through the system.

simple it may be, but over "light pipe" you will never get uncompressed audio..

Hdmi is the only cable capable of carrying that signal as far as I know...

Well at least coming out of a ps3, maybe it's different from your tv..

What?

He has a TV capable of passing 5.1 audio to his receiver with a toslink optical cable from other sources.

Many TV's don't allow this, and will only pass 5.1 audio from sources native to the TV (youtube, hulu, netflix, OTA/cable/sat broadcasts etc).

He's just letting us know his TV does it. My issue with that is that I don't think TV's will pass 7.1 or higher information, so if he's using a 7.1 source (bluray) it will go to his receiver after going through the TV as 5.1.

That just wouldn't be acceptable.

As for the bolded section, he's claiming to get a better signal to noise ratio by eliminating a potential ground loop by using a connection that uses plastic and light instead of metal and electrical signal. I guess if it was done right (like millions of systems are currently) that ground loop wouldn't be an issue.

In reality, his S/N is probably higher because he's passing the signal through another processor before sending it to the processor in the AVR, since the signal path in the TV isn't going to be as clean as he seems to think it is, toslink or not. TV's don't generally insulate signals from electrical current paths or keep them far away from sources - and the carriers aren't shielded. So in reality, he's probably breaking even at best or degrading his signal at worst (especially since the TV most likely won't pass an unfiltered codec like DTS-MA 7.1 through without breaking it down to PCM Bitstream 5.1).

I run 5.1 speakers, so the point is moot for me. I do have my bluray into my receiver via HDMI, so I can instantly switch back and forth from the light pipe out of the TV source to the HMDI out of the deck source. The light pipe has better S/N and no loss of dynamics.


My results are measured, not speculative.

Referring to an optical/Toslink connection as a "light pipe" would raise a red flag for credibility.

You're ignoring the fact that your 7.1 source is being decoded, reformatted, and re-coded, unless the TV simply ignores the other 2 channels of information and passes the rest on - which I find hard to believe since it would have to be decoding it from whatever packet it is sent in before sending it on to the AVR in order to make it a 5.1 signal.


Really? I wasn't aware that there was an objective scientific method to measure information loss post-process in the setup you describe. Please post links and show graphs so we all can see exactly what you mean.

Also, I'd call having to bitstream down a 7.1 DTS-MA source to a 5.1 lossy codec less than ideal, and while your S/N might be acceptable, you are losing dynamics by going from a lossless to a lossy before it ever reaches your AVR.

I'd just call it "A crime against audio".

I was probably not specific enough with my previous post. The main culprit where noise is concerned is the sub amp, due to the unbalanced send/receive. Even in a perfectly done system more than one copper connection between the TV and the rest of the system gives rise to 60Hz noise in the sub amp. Eliminating one copper pathway with glass reduces that noise. I measured a difference of 10dB on my system.
As for the above comment, A/B'ing the sound of HMDI direct from my bluray versus that from my TV there's no audible difference. I long ago stopped losing sleep about that which I cannot hear.

10dB in S/N ratio or volume?
If you have "60Hz noise" in your sub, you have a different issue. That may make sense if you eliminate a ground issue by introducing an optical cable between the offending devices.

And... unless you spent a lot of money for your "light pipe" unnecessarily, optical/Toslink cables are typically made of plastic.

10dB S/N, and my system does not have any issues, other than those intrinsic to all gear that uses unbalanced connections. OTOH my subwoofer also has roughly 10dB higher sensitivity than average, so 60Hz noise that would not be noticed with other subs is audible with mine.

The 2nd cable is going from the TV to the receiver, not from the receiver to the TV.