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Official Power Sound Audio Thread - Page 39

post #1141 of 9943
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

Have you calibrated the sub to 75db?

Could be a placement issue. When I got my dual XS15s I put them where I had my old subs and they sounded horrible. Moved them to the front of the room and they really came to life!

I tried turning it some but other than that nope. I'll have to buy another sub cable because the current one is routed through the wall so my choice of placement is limited right now. When I try to push the sub using those 16hz tracks it almost sounds like its running out of steam or the limiter is tripping or something which is odd because I'm not even approaching reference levels. I know this sub more powerful than the MK4 so something is going on here. I'm not doubting this sub at all, just trying to figure it out.
post #1142 of 9943
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokenAshes View Post

I tried turning it some but other than that nope. I'll have to buy another sub cable because the current one is routed through the wall so my choice of placement is limited right now. When I try to push the sub using those 16hz tracks it almost sounds like its running out of steam or the limiter is tripping or something which is odd because I'm not even approaching reference levels. I know this sub more powerful than the MK4 so something is going on here. I'm not doubting this sub at all, just trying to figure it out.

I've had the same reactions with my XS30...I've tried it in two locations in my room but I'm not getting the ULF response that I was getting with my HSU ULS-15. I haven't given up on it yet, but I'm a bit confused as I expected a bit more advantage over the ULS. I have the gain set at 2 o'clock and bumped up the sub channel to -2.5 after Audyssey set it at -6.0. I level-matched to the rest of the speakers at 75db with my RS spl meter. Given the size the two placement locations I've tried are my only options.

Performance aside, Tom has been fantastic to work with and told me if I'm still underwhelmed after trying a few things he would work with me to try some other tricks. Customer service is outstanding!
Edited by lewdogg - 1/18/13 at 12:16pm
post #1143 of 9943
Quote:
Originally Posted by kikkoman View Post

BF, when you say you adjusted the trim on the AVR and then you turned it down using audyssey, are those the same thing? I know I usually will run Audyssey and then adjust the trim with an spl to around 75 db or so, depending on the speaker. Are you saying that use set the gain to 3 o'clock, then ran Audyssey, then changed the trim levels, and then changed the gain on the sub to 1 o'clock?

Sorry, I'll need to re-calibrate mine a bit later. I had the gain at like 2 o'clock with the sub in the corner and after Audyssey, the sub level was at -12. I know you usually want it close to 0 if possible give or take +-3. So I'll have to go in and turn the gain closer to 3 o'clock and re-run Audyssey and that should make the sub level closer to 0. So it'll be a back and forth for a couple of tries. I'll then need to move it behind the main listening position and compare that as well.

no sorry I wrote it weird...I had it at 3oclock gain before running audyssey nad used the trim to calibrate it to 80db on an spl meter.....at the beginning part of audyessey it measured my sub at 90+ db..so i had to lower the gain on my sub to 1o'clock..and then run through the audyssey...the results were a -4.5 on the avr...i then bumped that to about -.5 to get back to the 78db on the spl meter
post #1144 of 9943
Quote:
Originally Posted by lewdogg View Post

I've had the same reactions with my XS30...I've tried it in two locations in my room but I'm not getting the ULF response that I was getting with my HSU ULS-15. I haven't given up on it yet, but I'm a bit confused as I expected a bit more advantage over the ULS. I have the gain set at 2 o'clock and bumped up the sub channel to -2.5 after Audyssey set it at -6.0. I level-matched to the rest of the speakers at 75db with my RS spl meter. Given the size the two placement locations I've tried are my only options.

Performance aside, Tom has been fantastic to work with and told me if I'm still underwhelmed after trying a few things he would work with me to try some other tricks. Customer service is outstanding!

Do you have any experience with REW? I recently purchased an XS15 and when using REW and an SPL meter I found a huge null in the spot where my old sub was located (between center and right main). This spot offered the smoothest frequency response when using my old sub, but not even close for the XS15. After using REW, I found that the XS15 offered a much smoother frequency response as well as better output on a side wall of my room.

I would definitely look into REW if you have some time. I'm a novice when it comes to a lot of this, but REW has opened my eyes up to the "science" part of AVS a bit.

I'm still not quite finished tweaking as I am also trying to incorporate an additional sub into the mix (my old ED A2-300). Using REW again, I found a good spot for the smaller sub. However, when utilizing both subs at the same time, I've noticed that I'm losing some of the lower frequencies I was getting with just the XS15, and it has made little to no difference in the frequency response. I did get about 3-4dB more output though. I'm going to remove the A2-300 from the system tonight to see if it makes a difference.

Utilizing REW (with RTA) takes some of the guesswork out of sub placement. And if there's one thing I've learned it's all about placement.

I'd also like to reiterate how helpful Tom was with getting the right sub for my room.
Edited by CincyNick - 1/18/13 at 1:28pm
post #1145 of 9943
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime316 View Post

I don't think people really want to pay the price for it. I don't see it being a large sub as the reason. I've seen plenty home theaters with large subs. The design needs a major overhaul...fast.

Just my $.02

Hi Prime,


The XV30 isn't everyone's "cup of tea" to be sure. We've had a number of owners standing theirs *up* and removing the base so a more "upright" front firing version may be something we consider adding at some point in the future. There's a few other projects working their way through development at present though so any redesign(s) focusing on the Power-X line will take a back seat at the moment though.

Stay tune...

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
post #1146 of 9943
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

Hi Prime,


The XV30 isn't everyone's "cup of tea" to be sure. We've had a number of owners standing theirs *up* and removing the base so a more "upright" front firing version may be something we consider adding at some point in the future. There's a few other projects working their way through development at present though so any redesign(s) focusing on the Power-X line will take a back seat at the moment though.

Stay tune...

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

Hey Tom,

Wasn't putting your product down, just looking for something a little different. If you remember, I asked you about something front firing. Judging from what the psa owners say about your subs, they are great. Right now I'm a Hsu man but if I am ever ready to give that up and you got something of the front firing persuasion, I'll take two.
post #1147 of 9943
Hello Tom,
Nice to hear that You and Jim have more new projects going, and having been in R & D myself, I found that it was one of the most enjoyable and rewarding times of my working career and made going to work a lot of fun.

Just wanted to let you know that I have my new XS30 set-up and it is performing great for both Music and Movies. The bass extension / LFE is great and even though I lose a few decibels on the left side of my 25 ft. wide soundstage (SPL meter and only 2/3's wall on left) I am more than please, especially when I have the XS30 positioned in the center of the room.smile.gif

Keep up the good work,

Crazy / Arnie
post #1148 of 9943
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokenAshes View Post

Ok I think I'm having problems here on the XS30. I am not feeling the deep bass, which is odd because the XS30 is suppose to have deep bass. For example the FOTP barrel roll scene, I didn't feel nothing. Not like I did with my VTF3 MK4. I also have used the cd that comes with the VTF3 MK4 that has samples that go below 16hz and it just doesn't feel like its hitting those notes like it should be. Also the auto on feature isn't working. I've emailed Tom but I know he's a busy guy, hasn't responded yet. Anyone have any ideas? Think its a amp issue?

Yamaha is set at -2 on the sub and the gain is around 2 to 3 o clock.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kikkoman View Post

BF, when you say you adjusted the trim on the AVR and then you turned it down using audyssey, are those the same thing? I know I usually will run Audyssey and then adjust the trim with an spl to around 75 db or so, depending on the speaker. Are you saying that use set the gain to 3 o'clock, then ran Audyssey, then changed the trim levels, and then changed the gain on the sub to 1 o'clock?

Sorry, I'll need to re-calibrate mine a bit later. I had the gain at like 2 o'clock with the sub in the corner and after Audyssey, the sub level was at -12. I know you usually want it close to 0 if possible give or take +-3. So I'll have to go in and turn the gain closer to 3 o'clock and re-run Audyssey and that should make the sub level closer to 0. So it'll be a back and forth for a couple of tries. I'll then need to move it behind the main listening position and compare that as well.

Make sure your speakers are calibrated to 75 dB C Slow at Master Volume 0.0 using the internal test tones on the AVR. Place the meter at the listening position facing forward and angled 45 degrees upward.
Most master volume controls start in negative region (like -60) and move upward toward 0 (and then into the positive region a bit).
If your master volume is different, then set the center channel level to 0 (usually on a scale of -10 to +10), play the test tone for that channel and increase the master volume until the SPL meter reads 75 dB C Slow.
Don't touch the master volume again, and then play the tones for all the other speaker channels and adjust their levels until they are also at 75 dB C Slow.
For the subwoofer, set the channel level to -5 (per the above) and adjust the gain until the meter reads about 74-76 dB C slow (it will fluctuate some). This will have the subwoofer running about 2 dB hot (since it reads a bit low on the bass tone), which most people prefer for HT applications when they are looking for a little more slam/impact.
Experiment with subwoofer location and listening positions , you could be sitting in a null which is robbing the bass of impact and dynamics.
post #1149 of 9943
My ears and head hurts lol, that's enough bass for one day.
post #1150 of 9943
Stop before you get a Nosebleed. tongue.gif
post #1151 of 9943
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

I've had my 2 Velodyne F1500s for almost 20 years (in the same house) and the only time the neighbors have ever complained is when I have the windows open while playing the system. eek.gif I've got rentals on both sides of me, so I've been through a plethora of different neighbors but very little complaints.

I wonder if things will change now that I'm running 2 / XS30s + 2 / F1500s....? tongue.gif

Not sure what my current neighbor is running, but I have to put up with a soft *thump* late at night every so often. I've never complained - maybe that's because I know what I put them through from time to time. cool.gif
I really don't talk to any of my neighbors other than a wave or a short conver. I don't want to ask them if my system is bothering them, because if they say yes, I am going to feel real funny saying "Oh Well"

I know back in the summer I was out vacuuming the pool and I keep hearing a loud rumble. I was looking over the trees thinking a storm was coming. Come to find out I left the system on and a big bass movie came on. I am for sure that the whole neighborhood can hear when I am getting loud.
post #1152 of 9943
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokenAshes View Post

My ears and head hurts lol, that's enough bass for one day.
Did you get it dialed in anymore or still having issues...?
post #1153 of 9943
I got my duals dialed in, just ran through a few scenes, and all I can say is WOW!! These are in another league compared to my dual HSU-ULS's. I'll post more over the weekend as time permits. I plan on re-watching a bunch of movies this weekend. Oh, just threw in Nemo, the Darla scene is crazy. Never felt anything like it before. I'm totally satisfied with my purchase. Plus Tom has been awesome to deal with. What a great company and product. Well, dual XS 30's have killed my upgrade bug for a long time, until PSA comes out with something new next year
post #1154 of 9943
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime316 View Post

Hey Tom,

Wasn't putting your product down, just looking for something a little different. If you remember, I asked you about something front firing. Judging from what the psa owners say about your subs, they are great. Right now I'm a Hsu man but if I am ever ready to give that up and you got something of the front firing persuasion, I'll take two.


Oh I know, didn't take it that way at all. Nothing wrong with your woofs, some of the best designs out there..smile.gif

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
post #1155 of 9943
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent A View Post

If you would be so kind to indulge my curiosity, it would be much appreciated.
Thanks!

Brent requested me to run some demo using only one XS30 in my setup. Here are my impressions with a single XS30 compared to dual in my theater.

Bass is not as smooth as running with the duals.
Definetely, bass has more weight when running duals. Also, bass is not very even with single as compared to dual. I feel the bass running with the duals is much deeper and overall adds MUCH better definition. Also, when running duals I am never able to localize where the bass is coming from and the bass is all over my theater. Running duals pressurizes my 6000 cu feet room MUCH better than running a single XS30.

Please note these are my impressions. I have not gathered any scientific measurements.

At some point I am hoping to run REW and understand the FR in my room better.

Right now, I am EXTREMELY happy with the dual XS30s. My wife who is not as crazy as me with the sound quality is able to appreciate the quality. She is like the explosion and other effects are very realistic. She still thinks that I bought XV15, which is cheaper than XS30 biggrin.gif
post #1156 of 9943
Quote:
Originally Posted by walke108 View Post

Did you get it dialed in anymore or still having issues...?

I think so, will give more detail tomorrow.
post #1157 of 9943
I'm getting the chest punch like no other but still looking for that ULF room shaking feeling. Like one said the placement might be the reason.
post #1158 of 9943
Quote:
Originally Posted by suresh6877 View Post

Brent requested me to run some demo using only one XS30 in my setup. Here are my impressions with a single XS30 compared to dual in my theater.

Bass is not as smooth as running with the duals.
Definetely, bass has more weight when running duals. Also, bass is not very even with single as compared to dual. I feel the bass running with the duals is much deeper and overall adds MUCH better definition. Also, when running duals I am never able to localize where the bass is coming from and the bass is all over my theater. Running duals pressurizes my 6000 cu feet room MUCH better than running a single XS30.

Please note these are my impressions. I have not gathered any scientific measurements.

At some point I am hoping to run REW and understand the FR in my room better.

Right now, I am EXTREMELY happy with the dual XS30s. My wife who is not as crazy as me with the sound quality is able to appreciate the quality. She is like the explosion and other effects are very realistic. She still thinks that I bought XV15, which is cheaper than XS30 biggrin.gif

Damn! I only ordered one with the hopes (funds permitting) of getting another down the road. Based on your experience, running only one, it's going to be difficult waiting for that second one---Bad enough having to wait for Tom to build the first as it is.
post #1159 of 9943
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokenAshes View Post

I think so, will give more detail tomorrow.
I just realized this past week that my main listening position was/is in a null. Once I get my new sub cable I am going for the nearfield placement, which I hope takes care of my problem. I am also going to look into purchasing a SPL Meter and learning REW to be sure. Hope things work out and keep us apprised.
post #1160 of 9943
Quote:
Originally Posted by walke108 View Post

I just realized this past week that my main listening position was/is in a null. Once I get my new sub cable I am going for the nearfield placement, which I hope takes care of my problem. I am also going to look into purchasing a SPL Meter and learning REW to be sure. Hope things work out and keep us apprised.

You'll need a mic too like this one http://cross-spectrum.com/measurement/calibrated_umm6.html

I'm just start out with REW too.
post #1161 of 9943
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

You'll need a mic too like this one http://cross-spectrum.com/measurement/calibrated_umm6.html

I'm just start out with REW too.
One of the other forums i frequent said you can use a radio shack spl meter as a mic for REW. I will probably go that route first then buy UMIK or the one you suggested above. Thanks for the link.
post #1162 of 9943
Quote:
Originally Posted by av addiction View Post


Make sure your speakers are calibrated to 75 dB C Slow at Master Volume 0.0 using the internal test tones on the AVR. Place the meter at the listening position facing forward and angled 45 degrees upward.
Most master volume controls start in negative region (like -60) and move upward toward 0 (and then into the positive region a bit).
If your master volume is different, then set the center channel level to 0 (usually on a scale of -10 to +10), play the test tone for that channel and increase the master volume until the SPL meter reads 75 dB C Slow.
Don't touch the master volume again, and then play the tones for all the other speaker channels and adjust their levels until they are also at 75 dB C Slow.
For the subwoofer, set the channel level to -5 (per the above) and adjust the gain until the meter reads about 74-76 dB C slow (it will fluctuate some). This will have the subwoofer running about 2 dB hot (since it reads a bit low on the bass tone), which most people prefer for HT applications when they are looking for a little more slam/impact.
Experiment with subwoofer location and listening positions , you could be sitting in a null which is robbing the bass of impact and dynamics.

Thanks AV Addition! I do remember doing this back then when first setting up my older sub and it's been like a year so I the refresher was good, even though I have the Audyssey FAQ pinned on one of my browsers. I'm not sure if this is odd for others on this sub, but I was using the y-adapter but then just switched to using the one pin to the LFE/Left and when going thru Audyssey, I would have to turn the gain to about 12:30 or so, b/c if I would turn the gain up more, the Audyssey run would show the sub as -12 which is the farthest back it goes on the AVR. I tried setting the gain to 2 o'clock or higher and of course this sets the sub to -12, so that is too high for me. I guess this depends on room setup so can differ for each person as well as the AVR.

So I ran Audyssey a few times with the phase 0, xover 150 hz (all the way clockwise), and gain about 12:30, and I got the sub to -1.5, which is good. Then when I ran Audyssey all the way thru to the 8 setup points and saved the configuration. When I went back to update the speaker trims with a RS spl, I noticed the sub was always around 68 hz on the meter, so I would have to change it from -1.5 to say +3 (which goes to around 72 hz). I would go up to +4 or +5 so that the meter would be around 75 hz but is that too big of a jump to have to add to the sub trim?

Silly question, but once Audyssey is setup and the trims are set, you're NOT supposed to go and turn the gain on the sub right? If you do, you have to re-run Audyssey, I assume.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokenAshes View Post

I'm getting the chest punch like no other but still looking for that ULF room shaking feeling. Like one said the placement might be the reason.

I'm in the opposite boat, at least I think. I can hear the low level stuff which shakes the couch, and my arse, but I'm missing the chest punch stuff. I'm not sure if it's just the scenes I'm testing with because those may just have ultra low bass. I'm been setting up for a few hours, moving the sub from the corner b/c it sounded localized there, to the back of the couch, then to the left side of the couch, and then to the front between the l/r speakers. So far, I think it sounds best behind the couch so I have it there. I've been testing the Cloverfield monster scene, WOTW pod scene, Transformers scorpion scene and don't feel the chest punch. I think I read that the chest punch comes from mid bass vs. the low level stuff. Is there a good scene I can test this with? A few recommendations would be great. I do have the Reference HT files which has the bass, animations, surround sound, visual, and music scenes from movies and concerts so if there are a few here, that would be great. I think the Finding Nemo Darla tapping on the tank is one, but I don't have that disc on me.
post #1163 of 9943
The Dark Knight Rises has great mid bass in it for instance the scene with Bane and Batman fighting for the first time. No music, straight up chest punching madness.
post #1164 of 9943
I finally had some time to get down and dirty with my XV15. I ran all the test tones and did the sub crawl and it was obvious where the sub needed to be placed.
I found the spot with the best response and 3db better than any other spot in my cave was to my right rear about 18 feet from my listening position. It was a night and day diff from where I had it.
I re ran the Audyssey setup and let er rip.

Underworld awakening...I had to stop the playback. The ladies upstairs were not happy at all and I did not even have it that loud at all. Ill try again another day.

X-Men First Class...I lowered the volume a bit and actually made it through the whole movie. The ladies stayed quiet for the most part, but they did come down to see what the heck was going on. I have to say, I am impressed...actually...the whole house is (except for the ladies).
I am a total virgin to bass like this. Not just boom boom and the usuall kicks. This sub is totally shaking my entire man cave to a level I was not expecting, as well as the rest of the house. I swear at one point upstairs I felt the floor resonate and it felt like the floor lifted me up .
My room is much larger than some of your rooms, but not dedicated. At this point I cant even imagine needing two subs, although I'm sure it would be freakin amazing.

Long story short...I would never have thought a single XV15 would fill my 40x30 space with the pressure it does, but it does...and in spades.
Kudos To Tom and Jim for a job well done.

(I cant wait to kick the ladies out of the house and give it a real workout !)
post #1165 of 9943
Quote:
Originally Posted by atabea View Post

Damn! I only ordered one with the hopes (funds permitting) of getting another down the road. Based on your experience, running only one, it's going to be difficult waiting for that second one---Bad enough having to wait for Tom to build the first as it is.

What I meant is running dual XS30 seems good in my listening environment. It is completely possible that a single XS30 may work wonders in your room.

Also, Please note that before ordering them, I discussed my room layout, listening position, sub placement options etc with Tom. The duals were recommended based on these parameters.

When in doubt, please discuss them with Tom.
post #1166 of 9943
Quote:
Originally Posted by suresh6877 View Post

What I meant is running dual XS30 seems good in my listening environment. It is completely possible that a single XS30 may work wonders in your room.

Also, Please note that before ordering them, I discussed my room layout, listening position, sub placement options etc with Tom. The duals were recommended based on these parameters.

When in doubt, please discuss them with Tom.

Unerstood! Thanks Suresh.

Rick
post #1167 of 9943
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmarki View Post

I checked with Tom, plugging directly into the outlet is fine, unless you live in an area that is prone to power surges. I had a power surge that fried an amp on my Jamo c80 sub last year so I'm going to use this, approved by Tom. http://www.homedepot.com/buy/belkin-single-outlet-wall---mount-surge-protector-f9h101acw-dp.html#.UPl1oGdyF8F
The main thing is to NOT use any sort of "conditioner" which could potentially limit the current to the subwoofer.

That thing looks kind of bulky, does it get in the way of using the 2nd outlet? I'm probably going to pull the trigger on an XS30 here within the next couple of weeks, but the outlet i'll likely use has a lamp plugged into it also.
post #1168 of 9943
Quote:
Originally Posted by ttnuagmada View Post

That thing looks kind of bulky, does it get in the way of using the 2nd outlet? I'm probably going to pull the trigger on an XS30 here within the next couple of weeks, but the outlet i'll likely use has a lamp plugged into it also.

It is a little bulky and does get in the way of the second outlet. It works for me, I have nothing else plugged into the outlets.
post #1169 of 9943
Update on the xv15. Was watching tdkr and came upstairs to bed. The wife told me she heard metal things inside the walls rattling as well as the blinds. It reminded her if when she wanin her high rise apartment during hurricane Katrina while living in Miami. Hahahah


Guess I have a winner sub I. My hands!!
post #1170 of 9943
Quote:
Originally Posted by ttnuagmada View Post

That thing looks kind of bulky, does it get in the way of using the 2nd outlet? I'm probably going to pull the trigger on an XS30 here within the next couple of weeks, but the outlet i'll likely use has a lamp plugged into it also.

I had an electrician out and had all the duplex wall outlets replaced with four-plex wall outlets. A total of five outlets were upgraded. Parts and labor, it ran about $250.00 and considering the number of plugs we have stabbing our outlets, I considered it money well spent. Look ma, no plug strips. biggrin.gif

(Included in the above count, at the same time, we had a four-plex outlet installed in the bathroom. Now there's no need to play a well know bathroom game, musical plugs)

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 1/19/13 at 6:08am
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