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Official Power Sound Audio Thread - Page 141

post #4201 of 9932
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lecter83 View Post

I've been watching the XS30 and truly is a subwoofer that attracts me.

Ditto. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I hold a grudge (of the friendly type) against Tom for not releasing it with the rest of the Power-X line. Now that you can get it in those nice finishes, that just steams me up a little bit more biggrin.gif
post #4202 of 9932
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post

FWIW, port plugs do a lot more than control the curve. They fundamentally alter the characteristics of the enclosure and the performance profile of a subwoofer. There may be some similarities between this process and signal shaping via DSP, but there is also a world of difference, hence the statement that no PSA subs are variable tune.

Indeed. It is worth adding that DSP can do a lot (protect the driver, correct the in-room FR, or even provide a flat FR at non-max output), but one thing it cannot do is increase the output of the sub past its max output profile. As far as I know, the DSP can only subtract from the max output profile. At lower levels, it can change the relative weight of the frequencies, but it cannot redistribute "reserve output" (such a thing does not exist) from one frequency to the other.
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

you need to add 1.5 db across the xv15 numbers because the mic was not placed in front of the driver which makes a difference for open ground plane testing. ...ricci is the one that stated this.

Yeah, the measurement process becomes tricky with down-firing and opposed-driver subs. Wouldn't there be an advantage, for comparison purposes, to measure further from the sub? I bet the sub geometry would matter much less if the measurements were, say, at 10 m from the sub's center of mass or something like this. Would the lower signal lead to significantly degraded measurements?
Quote:
also those numbers you posted are not figured correctly...going from 1m peak to 2m rms you must subtract 9db. this is a prime example why its important to get as many subs as possible tested by ricci @ data-bass so there is good data to compare. Most of the data out there other than data-bass and illka is skewed imo...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post

Also FWIW since I just saw this edit, the numbers are from AH when Paul Appolino did the testing (his numbers on the FV15HP tied well with Josh's, but obviously the VTF15H created a bit of a storm). The 2m GP numbers aren't just -9dB versus the 1m peak as there were some product changes between the time of the review and when the they decided to do a conversion table, and a note was included in the article. No retest was done though to my knowledge.

Exactly -- the conversion table subtracts 9dB for doubling the distance and going RMS, but adds 1.5 dB because the DSP version has a 1.5-2.0dB advantage over the tested version. Here's a link to the measurements section of the review.

In any case, I would like the Plus tested too as I own it but it would be a bit of a wasted effort considering there is little debate about what the exact numbers are. In any case, the XV15 is almost half the price so there is little doubt that it's an incredible value, whether it's just below or just above the Plus in CEA testing. At least the pricing on the PC12-Plus is a bit more accessible.
post #4203 of 9932
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lecter83 View Post

I've been watching the XS30 and truly is a subwoofer that attracts me.

The question goes to Vodhanel, how much would cost one XS30 sent to Spain in € uros? Maybe in a future add this piece, along with my PB12 +.

Ported and sealed combo.........interesting!

wink.gif
post #4204 of 9932
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

Indeed. It is worth adding that DSP can do a lot (protect the driver, correct the in-room FR, or even provide a flat FR at non-max output), but one thing it cannot do is increase the output of the sub past its max output profile. As far as I know, the DSP can only subtract from the max output profile. At lower levels, it can change the relative weight of the frequencies, but it cannot redistribute "reserve output" (such a thing does not exist) from one frequency to the other.
Yeah, the measurement process becomes tricky with down-firing and opposed-driver subs. Wouldn't there be an advantage, for comparison purposes, to measure further from the sub? I bet the sub geometry would matter much less if the measurements were, say, at 10 m from the sub's center of mass or something like this. Would the lower signal lead to significantly degraded measurements?

Exactly -- the conversion table subtracts 9dB for doubling the distance and going RMS, but adds 1.5 dB because the DSP version has a 1.5-2.0dB advantage over the tested version. Here's a link to the measurements section of the review.

In any case, I would like the Plus tested too as I own it but it would be a bit of a wasted effort considering there is little debate about what the exact numbers are. In any case, the XV15 is almost half the price so there is little doubt that it's an incredible value, whether it's just below or just above the Plus in CEA testing. At least the pricing on the PC12-Plus is a bit more accessible.
ahh I missed the dsp part .
post #4205 of 9932
Quote:
Originally Posted by cr136124 View Post

Ported and sealed combo.........interesting!

wink.gif

Yes, it is certainly possible and not hard (if you know all the possibilities of placement and reply to your room).

The XS30 serious black oak finish, so would make playing with other speakers and subwoofer. I still do not buy you, but it is possible that in the future if you do.
post #4206 of 9932
Can you fit two XS30s in a hatchback VW Golf? confused.gifrolleyes.giftongue.gif
post #4207 of 9932
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lecter83 View Post

Yes, it is certainly possible and not hard (if you know all the possibilities of placement and reply to your room).

The XS30 serious black oak finish, so would make playing with other speakers and subwoofer. I still do not buy you, but it is possible that in the future if you do.

Hopefully, I should be able to have first hand experience in just a couple of weeks. Yes, the black oak finish is really nice. But, I pulled the trigger on the cherry color to have a better match.

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)


Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

Can you fit two XS30s in a hatchback VW Golf? confused.gifrolleyes.giftongue.gif

Of course, you just need one of this:

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
post #4208 of 9932
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

Wouldn't there be an advantage, for comparison purposes, to measure further from the sub? I bet the sub geometry would matter much less if the measurements were, say, at 10 m from the sub's center of mass or something like this. Would the lower signal lead to significantly degraded measurements?

There was some discussion of that not too long ago:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1467970/honest-discussion-psa-xv15-vs-hsu-vtf-3-mk4/60#post_23205772
post #4209 of 9932
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

Well to be totally honest I'm not sure either. I guess I'm thinking about Canadian consumer protection laws. They can't possibly apply when you purchase a good out of the country. Buying cheap HDMI cables from Monoprice is one thing, but a 1k$+ sub is another entirely. Yet thinking about it... I trust PSA's honesty much more than I trust the effectiveness of consumer protection laws.

Exactly. After reading here about PSA's outstanding customer service, and then experiencing that dedication first-hand through many back-and-forth emails with Tom prior to my purchase, I had no qualms about dealing with PSA.
post #4210 of 9932
Quote:
Originally Posted by tboe77 View Post

Exactly. After reading here about PSA's outstanding customer service, and then experiencing that dedication first-hand through many back-and-forth emails with Tom prior to my purchase, I had no qualms about dealing with PSA.

What a day! That would be the least of my worries with both company's.
Quote:
Indeed. It is worth adding that DSP can do a lot (protect the driver, correct the in-room FR, or even provide a flat FR at non-max output), but one thing it cannot do is increase the output of the sub past its max output profile. As far as I know, the DSP can only subtract from the max output profile. At lower levels, it can change the relative weight of the frequencies, but it cannot redistribute "reserve output" (such a thing does not exist) from one frequency to the other.

That’s it in a nut shell.. well put. This is one of the reasons I think I would like the Triax so much in a leaky room with it’s +- rated down to 15.. not forgetting it has the driver mass, xm and power to handle realistic expectations.
Edited by steve nn - 7/12/13 at 9:29pm
post #4211 of 9932
Do you sub gurus think the Triax will be able to hang with the JTR Cap S2 ? Performance wise, output, extension...

What are ya'll expecting with this sub?
post #4212 of 9932
Quote:
Originally Posted by rangers View Post

Do you sub gurus think the Triax will be able to hang with the JTR Cap S2 ? Performance wise, output, extension...

What are ya'll expecting with this sub?

I think that the Triax should be able to hang with a Cap S2, I believe that when Tom and Jim designed the Triax going up against a Cap S2 was something they had in mind.
post #4213 of 9932
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

I think that the Triax should be able to hang with a Cap S2, I believe that when Tom and Jim designed the Triax going up against a Cap S2 was something they had in mind.

+1

Quote:
Originally Posted by rangers View Post

Do you sub gurus think the Triax will be able to hang with the JTR Cap S2 ? Performance wise, output, extension...What are ya'll expecting with this sub?


If we take weight into account, they should come in at close to same performance level.. each190lbs. wink.gif Time will tell.. am sure that statement is a little off.
post #4214 of 9932
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

you need to add 1.5 db across the xv15 numbers because the mic was not placed in front of the driver which makes a difference for open ground plane testing. ...ricci is the one that stated this. He also stated it it could be up to 4db difference up around 80hz. Also I am just posting what Tom told me...Lets not turn this into another debate, I honestly would hope the pb12+ would have more out put for the price difference. Also the pb12+ is more feature rich with built in eq, variable tuning, gloss black finish...etc. Not trying to knock it.

also those numbers you posted are not figured correctly...going from 1m peak to 2m rms you must subtract 9db. this is a prime example why its important to get as many subs as possible tested by ricci @ data-bass so there is good data to compare. Most of the data out there other than data-bass and illka is skewed imo...

I use the measured data for the pb12+(scaled to the same 2m rms I use for all data) without adding what the manufacturer claims from any "update". I believe this is the fairest way. If you ask all of the manufacturers with subwoofers measured by AH/Josh I bet the majority(if not all) would say they have made updates to their product since it was originally measured. Striving to improve current products is a constant at Power Sound and I'd assume elsewhere too. Since the XV15 measurements we have updated the 15" driver and DSP has gotten a few tweaks along the way too. Point being---If we start changing the data every time a manufacturer makes a tweak/update...the data will be changing weekly. If there is an instance of the manufacturer no longer believing the data represents the performance of a product within reason it is their responsibility to arrange a "round 2" measurement for that product. (imo).

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
post #4215 of 9932
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lecter83 View Post

I've been watching the XS30 and truly is a subwoofer that attracts me.

The question goes to Vodhanel, how much would cost one XS30 sent to Spain in € uros? Maybe in a future add this piece, along with my PB12 +.

I'm sorry but we do not ship to europe at this time. You can arrange your own freight forwarder and we will assist you with that as much as possible. Shipping a single XS30 would be very expensive(at least half the cost of the product I'd guess). If you could purchase 2-4 at a time it would be significantly less per unit.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
post #4216 of 9932
Quote:
Originally Posted by scorpionrm View Post

The Triax has two user selectable DSP programs for optimization in almost any room size. That sounds to me like a tuning will be incoporated.

Similar results, but achieved through different tactics.

"variable tuning" usually indicates a ported subwoofer that , through the use of a "port plug" ,can have the enclosure "tuning" frequency altered. This is usually accompanied by a user control on the amplifier that will change the EQ/limiters/subsonic filtering to match the different "tuning points". The end result is a different frequency response profile for the subwoofer.

A DSP program change can have very similar effects on the performance of a subwoofer.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
post #4217 of 9932
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

Similar results, but achieved through different tactics.

"variable tuning" usually indicates a ported subwoofer that , through the use of a "port plug" ,can have the enclosure "tuning" frequency altered. This is usually accompanied by a user control on the amplifier that will change the EQ/limiters/subsonic filtering to match the different "tuning points". The end result is a different frequency response profile for the subwoofer.

A DSP program change can have very similar effects on the performance of a subwoofer.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

Hey Tom I was curious what the results would if the xv15 was run with the port plugged? Not implying that its something I want to do, was just curious.
post #4218 of 9932
Quote:
Originally Posted by cr136124 View Post

Hopefully, I should be able to have first hand experience in just a couple of weeks. Yes, the black oak finish is really nice. But, I pulled the trigger on the cherry color to have a better match.

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)


Of course, you just need one of this:

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

Nice. I would have black oak to match the other speakers / subwoofer.
post #4219 of 9932
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

I'm sorry but we do not ship to europe at this time. You can arrange your own freight forwarder and we will assist you with that as much as possible. Shipping a single XS30 would be very expensive(at least half the cost of the product I'd guess). If you could purchase 2-4 at a time it would be significantly less per unit.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

Ok, I understand.
Maybe with time possible, in Spain we are very hurt by the crisis issue. So this should be expected.
rolleyes.gif

Thank you very much Tom.
post #4220 of 9932
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Hey Tom I was curious what the results would if the xv15 was run with the port plugged? Not implying that its something I want to do, was just curious.

It will be very similar to the output of a XS15, with the advantage that the XV15 has a larger enclosure size and this sure gives you an advantage.
post #4221 of 9932
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lecter83 View Post

It will be very similar to the output of a XS15, with the advantage that the XV15 has a larger enclosure size and this sure gives you an advantage.

I dunno, I would have to see Tom reply to that considering how it could differ/DSP from the XS.
post #4222 of 9932
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

I dunno, I would have to see Tom reply to that considering how it could differ/DSP from the XS.

Surely it would not be very suitable close a subwoofer, which has been designed to work in any way bass-reflex, which both will have different subwoofers roll off. It would make sense for my seal.
post #4223 of 9932
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

I dunno, I would have to see Tom reply to that considering how it could differ/DSP from the XS.

The only reason I ask is because If its feasible, I am considering adding a xs30 instead of another xv15. The xv30 is too big, but I have room for another xv15 or xs30. ofcourse I would try leaving the ports open, but its been mentioned that mixing sealed and ported can be troublesome...however, having a mini dsp i can adjust the delay individually on each sub. Just kicking ideas around....smile.gif
post #4224 of 9932
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

I use the measured data for the pb12+(scaled to the same 2m rms I use for all data) without adding what the manufacturer claims from any "update". I believe this is the fairest way. If you ask all of the manufacturers with subwoofers measured by AH/Josh I bet the majority(if not all) would say they have made updates to their product since it was originally measured. Striving to improve current products is a constant at Power Sound and I'd assume elsewhere too. Since the XV15 measurements we have updated the 15" driver and DSP has gotten a few tweaks along the way too. Point being---If we start changing the data every time a manufacturer makes a tweak/update...the data will be changing weekly. If there is an instance of the manufacturer no longer believing the data represents the performance of a product within reason it is their responsibility to arrange a "round 2" measurement for that product. (imo).

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio


Good post Tom! I agree with ya 100%...and normally I would not share any of our emails, but I thought that was needed because you do a better job of explaining things and are in a much better position to support your claim...especially since you have a tad bit of SVS background. Notice how that conversation went silent smile.gif
post #4225 of 9932
^^^^^ +1
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

The only reason I ask is because If its feasible, I am considering adding a xs30 instead of another xv15. The xv30 is too big, but I have room for another xv15 or xs30. ofcourse I would try leaving the ports open, but its been mentioned that mixing sealed and ported can be troublesome...however, having a mini dsp i can adjust the delay individually on each sub. Just kicking ideas around....smile.gif



Oh I understand you kicking around ideas and what you’re trying to achieve. I’m certainly not saying it can’t be done because I have done it myself more than once. It’s a mixed bag of affairs.. with you utilizing the mini your chances are much better than otherwise.

I made my last comment pertaining to how I would let my conclusion set in not knowing what the engineer/Tom- thinks of the idea is all. There is a reason I assure you that PSA offers the XS and XV line. Plugging a port will not achieve a XS is what I was saying in short. smile.gif as I'm sure you know.
post #4226 of 9932
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

^^^^^ +1
Oh I understand you kicking around ideas and what you’re trying to achieve. I’m certainly not saying it can’t be done because I have done it myself more than once. It’s a mixed bag of affairs.. with you utilizing the mini your chances are much better than otherwise.

I made my last comment pertaining to how I would let my conclusion set in not knowing what the engineer/Tom- thinks of the idea is all. There is a reason I assure you that PSA offers the XS and XV line. Plugging a port will not achieve a XS is what I was saying in short. smile.gif as I'm sure you know.

Yea I will most likely stick with another xv15, I was more or less thinking out loud. smile.gif
post #4227 of 9932
In that past thread I was only trying to state that a Co. needs to be held accountable to a degree on what they claim and give us user's a idea. No not the final word or end all.. (so much can be said) I would rather see them post no numbers like that Co. with the very high WAF does.. rolleyes.gif
post #4228 of 9932
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Good post Tom! I agree with ya 100%...and normally I would not share any of our emails, but I thought that was needed because you do a better job of explaining things and are in a much better position to support your claim...especially since you have a tad bit of SVS background. Notice how that conversation went silent smile.gif

No worries on the emails, I always try to use the documented (third party) data when asked to compare products. I have an obvious bias to Power Sound Audio after all but basing my thoughts on objective data when possible can help minimize that. Really, no matter how you slice the objective data...the XV15 and pb12+ come out with very similar overall performance characteristics. If you want to compare like priced products drop the XS30 and pb12+ in the same room and let me know what you think..smile.gif

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
post #4229 of 9932
Quote:
If you want to compare like priced products drop the XS30 and pb12+ in the same room and let me know what you think.. smile.gif

LOL biggrin.gif
post #4230 of 9932
Quote:
Originally Posted by cr136124 View Post

Well, good thing is that you don't have to repair the roof "now". So, go ahead and buy the sub...............before is too late!

tongue.gif
WOW congrats on the XS-30 purchase, what are you using the XS-30 for?, as i know you have dual PB13 Ultra's.biggrin.gif
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