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Official Power Sound Audio Thread - Page 191

post #5701 of 10009
Post removed as being off topic.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 9/11/13 at 2:56pm
post #5702 of 10009
*sighs* if only this thread stuck specifically with PSA products and not opinions
post #5703 of 10009
Sorry. I'll consider myself chastised and remove the post.
post #5704 of 10009
So I came home from a crazy day at work and found these at my doorstep biggrin.gif
I ordered them to keep me busy while I wait for my Triax smile.gif





post #5705 of 10009
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Sorry. I'll consider myself chastised and remove the post.
I have your post in my email notification and I was laughing my a** off!

You are a wacky dude, don't take that wrong, but what you said about critical listening was funny as sh*t.
post #5706 of 10009
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

You are a wacky dude, don't take that wrong, but what you said about critical listening was funny as sh*t.

I hate work. What can I say. And there's nothing relaxing about critical listening because critical listening is work.

...tongue.gif

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 9/11/13 at 7:09pm
post #5707 of 10009
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

I hate work. What can I say.

...tongue.gif

+1 biggrin.gif
post #5708 of 10009
Anyone help me with some advice here. When I run some sweeps it seems like I have a large roll off below 30hz. I've ran sweeps on each XS30(2) and I've tried different placements for each but still seems the same. It's a very steep drop about 15-20dB from 30 to 20hz. My room is very open room but trying to figure out a way to help improve this area. I don't have any room treatments in the room or mic to really do any measuring for REW. Really trying to figure out how to get these numbers better when I do some individual test with SPL using some sweeps. All phases are at 0 haven't tried anything else.
post #5709 of 10009
Quote:
Originally Posted by pretsam View Post

Anyone help me with some advice here. When I run some sweeps it seems like I have a large roll off below 30hz. I've ran sweeps on each XS30(2) and I've tried different placements for each but still seems the same. It's a very steep drop about 15-20dB from 30 to 20hz. My room is very open room but trying to figure out a way to help improve this area. I don't have any room treatments in the room or mic to really do any measuring for REW. Really trying to figure out how to get these numbers better when I do some individual test with SPL using some sweeps. All phases are at 0 haven't tried anything else.


Due to the room being large and open, you most likely are not getting the room gain needed to get a deep flat response that sealed subs rely on. You might be able to boost the low end with a eq device but at the cost of headroom.
post #5710 of 10009
Quote:
Originally Posted by pretsam View Post

It's a very steep drop about 15-20dB from 30 to 20hz.

Two XS30's and you're getting that type of roll-off? That's terrible.

First suggestion, stack these puppies near a corner, about 4' to the left or right of the corner and after running Audyssey (what ever your EQ program might be) take a new measurement. And if you're still have this type of roll-off, give PSA a call as easily, if split apart and placed on opposite walls, WORSE CASE, from 30Hz to 20Hz, you should be down no more than five or six dB.

As to phase issues, play a 30Hz continuous tone and with sound meter in hand, as you turn the phase knob, make note of any SPL changes.

In my opinion, not knowing what you have happening at home, it sounds like something's not working right as opposed to simply being an issue surrounding placement.
post #5711 of 10009
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Two XS30's and you're getting that type of roll-off? That's terrible.

First suggestion, stack these puppies near a corner, about 4' to the left or right of the corner and after running Audyssey (what ever your EQ program might be) take a new measurement. And if you're still have this type of roll-off, give PSA a call as easily, if split apart and placed on opposite walls, WORSE CASE, from 30Hz to 20Hz, you should be down no more than five or six dB.

As to phase issues, play a 30Hz continuous tone and with sound meter in hand, as you turn the phase knob, make note of any SPL changes.

In my opinion, not knowing what you have happening at home, it sounds like something's not working right as opposed to simply being an issue surrounding placement.

good point...the more I think about it 15-20db drop from 30 to 20hz is excessive.
post #5712 of 10009
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Due to the room being large and open, you most likely are not getting the room gain needed to get a deep flat response that sealed subs rely on. You might be able to boost the low end with a eq device but at the cost of headroom.

The main room has a 20ft ceiling and is connected to the kitchen which has your typical 9ft ceiling, look over balcony to look downstairs and hallway to the front has 2 rooms they are open also. I have 1 sub behind the couch in the corner about 7' away from MLP and I just recently moved the other into this little corner near the steps so both subs are prolly 9' apart but kinda on the same wall(cept a hallway to bathroom separating them). I seem to like it this way rather than having the other XS30 up front in this tiny corner and it was 12' or more away. I tried corner loaded behind the couch in the corner but it was just so easy to pinpoint where the bass was an felt like the left side of my body was going numb lol. I've tried ported subs in this room and I seem to just get the same results. Used to have a XV15 but traded up for the XS30s. I tried a older STF2 HSU(def not same type of sub but) and same results on just the steep drop below 30hz. I'm using one of Superleo demo disc I believe with the sweeps on it. The paper I was writing some #s down on I think at 20hz with XT32 on I was getting 87dB(xs30 by stairs corner, no wall going up stairs just railing)at ref. Maybe I have the room of death.. frown.gif

Would adding any bass traps help or a 3rd sub maybe a XS15? Or am I SOL. EQ device like a minidsp?
post #5713 of 10009
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Two XS30's and you're getting that type of roll-off? That's terrible.

First suggestion, stack these puppies near a corner, about 4' to the left or right of the corner and after running Audyssey (what ever your EQ program might be) take a new measurement. And if you're still have this type of roll-off, give PSA a call as easily, if split apart and placed on opposite walls, WORSE CASE, from 30Hz to 20Hz, you should be down no more than five or six dB.

As to phase issues, play a 30Hz continuous tone and with sound meter in hand, as you turn the phase knob, make note of any SPL changes.

In my opinion, not knowing what you have happening at home, it sounds like something's not working right as opposed to simply being an issue surrounding placement.

I had them once corner loaded kinda tight to the wall behind the couch but it was very noticeable where the bass was and felt like your left ear was being beat. This is how they used to be stacked. Prolly 8-10" off the corner. I've never tried them 4' from the corner stacked.

http://images.static-bluray.com/htgallery/129548.jpg
http://images4.static-bluray.com/htgallery/129547.jpg
http://images2.static-bluray.com/htgallery/119939.jpg (old pic but shows room layout some)
http://images3.static-bluray.com/htgallery/110876.jpg (pic of the corner of the stairs, 1 XS30 is in corner where coffee table is, was cleaning why table is there)

I found my paper I did a few measurements with my SPL each individual. This is after XT32. Both subs are gain matched.

Angled Back corner 7' from MLP:
70 - 103db
50 - 108db
45 - 108db
40 - 109db
35 - 109db
30 - 104db
20 - 90db
15 - 82db
10 - 68db

Angled Stairs corner 8.5-9' from MLP:
70 - 99db
50 - 99db
45 - 101db
40 - 104db
35 - 99db
40 - 95db
20 - 87db
15 - 78db
10 - 67db

thanks for help
post #5714 of 10009
Quote:
Originally Posted by pretsam View Post

The main room has a 20ft ceiling and is connected to the kitchen which has your typical 9ft ceiling, look over balcony to look downstairs and hallway to the front has 2 rooms they are open also. I have 1 sub behind the couch in the corner about 7' away from MLP and I just recently moved the other into this little corner near the steps so both subs are prolly 9' apart but kinda on the same wall(cept a hallway to bathroom separating them). I seem to like it this way rather than having the other XS30 up front in this tiny corner and it was 12' or more away. I tried corner loaded behind the couch in the corner but it was just so easy to pinpoint where the bass was an felt like the left side of my body was going numb lol. I've tried ported subs in this room and I seem to just get the same results. Used to have a XV15 but traded up for the XS30s. I tried a older STF2 HSU(def not same type of sub but) and same results on just the steep drop below 30hz. I'm using one of Superleo demo disc I believe with the sweeps on it. The paper I was writing some #s down on I think at 20hz with XT32 on I was getting 87dB(xs30 by stairs corner, no wall going up stairs just railing)at ref. Maybe I have the room of death.. frown.gif

Would adding any bass traps help or a 3rd sub maybe a XS15? Or am I SOL. EQ device like a minidsp?

What is the total volume of the room?
post #5715 of 10009
So I hooked up the Denon 4520ci receiver and the first thing I've determined is that I'm not getting much more power from the bowers and Wilkins speakers because of the low speaker sensitivity, being that this is the 4th time I've upgraded receivers. I ran the Ad EQ and tested it out, man the sound is much more clear and rich in detail! It's like night and day upgrading from the pioneer elite receiver. The dialogue in movies and music is perfectly clear and stands out amazing. As for the Trinity sub, well it's punching much more tight and clear and isn't boomy at all, it sounds like a completely different sub! All I can say is that already this receiver is amazing and has already completely made my system totally improve in so many areas. I haven't tested the blueray player yet because I haven't figured it out eek.gif . I'm so glad I got this receiver because when I get the Triax here, ill be in much better shape and able to properly intregrate it into my setup and now have an awesome EQ system to calibrate it for good preformance.
post #5716 of 10009
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackmambakila View Post

So I hooked up the Denon 4520ci receiver and the first thing I've determined is that I'm not getting much more power from the bowers and Wilkins speakers because of the low speaker sensitivity, being that this is the 4th time I've upgraded receivers. I ran the Ad EQ and tested it out, man the sound is much more clear and rich in detail! It's like night and day upgrading from the pioneer elite receiver. The dialogue in movies and music is perfectly clear and stands out amazing. As for the Trinity sub, well it's punching much more tight and clear and isn't boomy at all, it sounds like a completely different sub! All I can say is that already this receiver is amazing and has already completely made my system totally improve in so many areas. I haven't tested the blueray player yet because I haven't figured it out eek.gif . I'm so glad I got this receiver because when I get the Triax here, ill be in much better shape and able to properly intregrate it into my setup and now have an awesome EQ system to calibrate it for good preformance.

It sounds like you need speakers with a higher effeminacy rating and a higher peak spl ability. And moving to a out board amp instead of moving up receivers. Most recovers can't really push much wattage especially over several channels.
post #5717 of 10009
Quote:
Originally Posted by oneeyeblind View Post

It sounds like you need speakers with a higher effeminacy rating and a higher peak spl ability. And moving to a out board amp instead of moving up receivers. Most recovers can't really push much wattage especially over several channels.


Yeah I didn't realize these speakers only have a sensitivity of 88db for fronts and 85 db for the center. The sound quality is really good though so I might just stick with them for a bit. I'd like to go with an ex amp but I might be running into power issues once my Triax gets here ill have it running with my Trinity sub plus all other current devices in my room so ill probably be tripping the breaker soon. I'm just renting the house so I'm not sure if upgrading the power is an option eek.gif
post #5718 of 10009
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

good point...the more I think about it 15-20db drop from 30 to 20hz is excessive.

Makes me think of a roller coaster drop.....WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

(at the bottom you have one quarter the output of the top)

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 9/12/13 at 6:52am
post #5719 of 10009
Quote:
Originally Posted by oneeyeblind View Post

And moving to a out board amp instead of moving up receivers. Most recovers can't really push much wattage especially over several channels.

The 4520CI is special. It has discreet channels and the ability to drive heavy loads (120w.channel, all channels driven) down to those momentary 1-2 ohm demands that will noticeably suck the life out of a sound track. The 4520CI comes with it's own crate of big cojones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackmambakila View Post

I'd like to go with an ex amp but I might be running into power issues once my Triax gets here ill have it running with my Trinity sub plus all other current devices in my room so ill probably be tripping the breaker soon. I'm just renting the house so I'm not sure if upgrading the power is an option eek.gif

If you have a 20A service, you should be good as basically the short of the story, a 20A breaker can handle some wild butt surges.

Eaton time current curve.

From the above graph, you'll see that an Eaton, 20A, circuit breaker will hold a 60A surge for a minimum of nine seconds. Unless welding a movie sound track in place, all things equal, your breaker will be good. A 15A breaker will hold approximately 50A for ten seconds before flipping out.

(disclosure; all electric service boxes must be serviced/upgraded with like kind and quality breakers and all upgrades must meet with NEC requirements)

As to the speakers and their sensitivity, that's a speaker centric condition that can only be fixed by.........eek.gif

(Klipsch or alternative equivalents)

...tongue.gif

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 9/12/13 at 6:51am
post #5720 of 10009
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

The 4520CI is special. It has discreet channels and the ability to drive heavy loads (120w.channel, all channels driven) down to those momentary 1-2 ohm demands that will noticeably suck the life out of a sound track. The 4520CI comes with it's own crate of big cojones.

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Is the AVR-4520CI really capable of 120w all channels driven?
If that's the case that's pretty impressive.
post #5721 of 10009
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Is the AVR-4520CI really capable of 120w all channels driven?
If that's the case that's pretty impressive.

Yup!

In my opinion, it's able to do this because it has nine discreet amplifier channels.

This is the best review I found on the 4520CI.

"Denon says their amp design has symmetrical monolithic construction placing the power transformer in the center of the unit and the power amp blocks at each side to better achieve separation for all channels… all amps are discrete and can produce the same power output."

ahblaze posted this comment in post number 5264:

"BMan that excerpt you posted was from Sonnie @ HTS, he sold his Emo 1000 watt monos he was using to drive his very difficult MLs and bought the Denon 4250, matter of fact the 4520 is driving five speakers, he said there was no sonic benefit of the separates compared to the 4520 plus as you mention XT32 and SUBEQ HT, I think the lesser Denons have trouble driving 4 ohm speaks and become srained when pushed. If the OP really wants an external amp I would go for the front three channels and let the receiver handle the rest. I would go with the 4520 and if the X4000 get the XPA-3, all the headroom you need plus XT32 and SUBEQ HT. Well back to the Triax, I quess nothing yet? I have a little reservation buying Denon refurbished tho. I have separate amps for the LCR, sides and surrounds, can I tell the difference, I want to say a profound yes but I would be lying.
I can't wait for my TRIAX:eek:"

http://hstrial-jrodriguez996.homestead.com/DENON-AVR-4520CI-RECEIVER-REVIEW.html?_=1353372722253

Image below of nine discreet channel blocks.



The AMP is rated 150w/2-channel. Can't find a link to the information showing 120w, all channels driven.

(this thing better be all that it claims to be as, unless Denon updates this model, it's our next AVR purchase)

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 9/12/13 at 10:04am
post #5722 of 10009
Quote:
Originally Posted by pretsam View Post

I had them once corner loaded kinda tight to the wall behind the couch but it was very noticeable where the bass was and felt like your left ear was being beat. This is how they used to be stacked. Prolly 8-10" off the corner. I've never tried them 4' from the corner stacked.

http://images.static-bluray.com/htgallery/129548.jpg
http://images4.static-bluray.com/htgallery/129547.jpg
http://images2.static-bluray.com/htgallery/119939.jpg (old pic but shows room layout some)
http://images3.static-bluray.com/htgallery/110876.jpg (pic of the corner of the stairs, 1 XS30 is in corner where coffee table is, was cleaning why table is there)

I found my paper I did a few measurements with my SPL each individual. This is after XT32. Both subs are gain matched.

Angled Back corner 7' from MLP:
70 - 103db
50 - 108db
45 - 108db
40 - 109db
35 - 109db
30 - 104db
20 - 90db
15 - 82db
10 - 68db

Angled Stairs corner 8.5-9' from MLP:
70 - 99db
50 - 99db
45 - 101db
40 - 104db
35 - 99db
40 - 95db
20 - 87db
15 - 78db
10 - 67db

thanks for help

Is this with any type of compensation or correction values added in for the SPL meter? What model SPL meter did you use? What weighting was used? If you are using a Rat Shack meter with the standard C-Weighting you will have to at least compensate for the C-Weighting rolloff. If you had REW setup, I would also suggest taking a sweep with the SPL meter / mic an inch from the center of one of the drivers. A close mic sweep like this should be very close to the ground plane measurement from PSA.
post #5723 of 10009
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

What is the total volume of the room?

Sent you a pm, didn't want to get to off topic even tho involves psa product smile.gif
post #5724 of 10009
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pretsam View Post

Sent you a pm, didn't want to get to off topic even tho involves psa product smile.gif

Please feel free to use this thread as a support thread. This thread is for all things PSA related, support, sales, questions, speculation, news and so on. smile.gif
post #5725 of 10009
I just received my XS30.. I hope I see a nice difference from the XV15..
post #5726 of 10009
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goat1 View Post

I just received my XS30.. I hope I see a nice difference from the XV15..

I've not been keeping as close track on this thread, as I normally do. Did you end up picking a veneer choice?
post #5727 of 10009
Quote:
Originally Posted by ironhead1230 View Post

Is this with any type of compensation or correction values added in for the SPL meter? What model SPL meter did you use? What weighting was used? If you are using a Rat Shack meter with the standard C-Weighting you will have to at least compensate for the C-Weighting rolloff. If you had REW setup, I would also suggest taking a sweep with the SPL meter / mic an inch from the center of one of the drivers. A close mic sweep like this should be very close to the ground plane measurement from PSA.

No, I just used a regular rat shack meter C weighted on slow. Analog also have digital but they some times give me different readings from each other. Running REW with just a SPL meter would that be sufficient or just enough to get a basic idea of things?
post #5728 of 10009
Quote:
Originally Posted by oneeyeblind View Post

Please feel free to use this thread as a support thread. This thread is for all things PSA related, support, sales, questions, speculation, news and so on. smile.gif

Thanks smile.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goat1 View Post

I just received my XS30.. I hope I see a nice difference from the XV15..

Good to hear Goat! I hope you like it. I noticed a difference from XV15 to XS30. Let us know your thoughts when you get it dialed in.
post #5729 of 10009
Quote:
Originally Posted by oneeyeblind View Post

I've not been keeping as close track on this thread, as I normally do. Did you end up picking a veneer choice?

Just got the standard black.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pretsam View Post

Thanks smile.gif
Good to hear Goat! I hope you like it. I noticed a difference from XV15 to XS30. Let us know your thoughts when you get it dialed in.

Will do,I borrowed my buddy's omni mic also. I'm not stuck on measurements like some guys. But I'm just curious..
post #5730 of 10009
Quote:
Originally Posted by oneeyeblind View Post

Please feel free to use this thread as a support thread. This thread is for all things PSA related, support, sales, questions, speculation, news and so on. smile.gif

And even some things not PSA related if you've been following since the beginning! tongue.gifbiggrin.gif
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