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Official Power Sound Audio Thread - Page 243

post #7261 of 9944
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Good news. The people in the control booth, have taken the above into consideration when they tracked the sound track.

As long as you're flat, you're golden.

Well of course not. If you play flat down to 8 Hz but at 80 dB SPL tops, according to the graph above, you won't perceive anything below about 15 Hz. If your sub can push 100 dB SPL at 8 Hz, then you're golden. You're right that the source can be EQed with human perception taken into consideration, but this is the minimum threshold for hearing those frequencies. Below those levels you're getting nothing...
post #7262 of 9944
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

Also it's interesting to stack up response curves taken, say, at 3 dB intervals. That way you can clearly see compression in the lower frequencies (typically due to the limiter).

Yup. smile.gif
post #7263 of 9944
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

Well of course not. If you play flat down to 8 Hz but at 80 dB SPL tops, according to the graph above, you won't perceive anything below about 15 Hz. If your sub can push 100 dB SPL at 8 Hz, then you're golden. You're right that the source can be EQed with human perception taken into consideration, but this is the minimum threshold for hearing those frequencies. Below those levels you're getting nothing...

can PSA subs reach that output level at 8hz?

again how to we measure that without damaging the sub?
post #7264 of 9944
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post

can PSA subs reach that output level at 8hz?

again how to we measure that without damaging the sub?

Maybe a Triax having much luck and if the room is small ... Although to do that safely, it may be necessary a couple of them.

I have a DIY 24" sealed and in my small room achievement 105db @ 10hz @ 2m (but the room referzo helps a lot to achieve these numbers and size).
post #7265 of 9944
interesting
post #7266 of 9944
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

Well of course not. If you play flat down to 8 Hz but at 80 dB SPL tops, according to the graph above, you won't perceive anything below about 15 Hz.

Agreed, but the sound engineers have already EQ everything sonically flat. This phenomenon has already been corrected for. If you're flat, you're reproducing what the sound engineers wanted you to hear. In short, you're golden. If you jack anything up, then your outside their purvey which isn't a crime, but in doing so, nothing is being corrected for other than the shortcomings of the subwoofer sound reproduction system.

Stating the obvious, that's what all those sliders on the sound board are for. They may have a smile shape on their sound board but to replicate what they recorded, the end user needs to have a flat response. And if one doesn't have a flat response, the end user is adding or subtracting away from what the sliders on the sound board represent.

As to 8Hz, assuming the driver is capable, that's an amplifier problem as it takes more energy to reproduce the lower octaves based on the demands of room acoustics and if the subwoofer isn't up to the task of integrating well with room acoustics then the end user has to acquire a subwoofer system that has the amplification necessary to easily handle 8Hz or one has to give up headroom and their expectations. Quid pro quo baby. biggrin.gif

The point, the Phon Chart was taken into consideration at the time the tracks were laid down. And if the end user wants a system that's 8Hz capable, it's up to the end user to acquire a system that's capable of reference flat to 8Hz. And if they can't get a subwoofer system that's reference flat to 8Hz, then they're going have to expect to be disappointed.

Personally, we can only afford a system that when purchased, installed and EQ'd, will expectedly be reference flat to 12Hz and if I'm lucky will have usable 8Hz but I have no expectation of being reference flat to 8Hz. And I won't know how the system will perform within the confines of our room acoustics, due to the semi-open spaces at each end of our living room, until the system is installed and measured.

I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm trying to support my comments and clarify the why of my comments to remove any misunderstanding. And if I've made errors or omissions, anybody is welcome to jump in and correct my comments as it's about accuracy and proper understanding of the process and the best I can lay claim to, is that of an incompetent old fool. cool.gif

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 11/14/13 at 6:56am
post #7267 of 9944
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post

can PSA subs reach that output level at 8hz?

again how to we measure that without damaging the sub?

There are not many single subs that can reach reference output down to 8hz. It takes multiple subs and alot of power...start reading the ULF score thread to further extend your knowledge base. My system is reference capable down to 15hz, but getting reference down below 10hz is a whole different ball game.

I posted how to measure that...your not going to damage the sub unless you play a test tone for a decent length of time and smoke the voice coil. besides psa subs have soft limiters to keep from being over driven. I have tested my subs with out hurting them, you just have to use some sense. How do you think Data-bass does max burst testing? They run all subs up on thier limiters and test for compression, thd, group delay...etc. If you look at data-bass.com you will see no sub is +/-3db through the frequency range at max output.
post #7268 of 9944
Is there even any content in movies or music that has 8hz info? Is wanting a sub that extends to 8hz like wanting a car that can go 200mph.......Fun to talk about, but in reality it means nothing?
post #7269 of 9944
There is plenty of 8hz material there is even movies that extends to 1hz. Is it a ton of content? No. But its there and i want (notice i didnt say need) to experience the single digit content at some point and just looking how to get there

For my application my ability to be flat to 10hz is perfect. But would love to extend that a touch more.
post #7270 of 9944
Quote:
Originally Posted by D Bone View Post

Is there even any content in movies or music that has 8hz info? Is wanting a sub that extends to 8hz like wanting a car that can go 200mph.......Fun to talk about, but in reality it means nothing?

In Black Hawk down, there is some 8 Hz content in the "F**king Irene" scene. The sound track was mixed using 22 Bag End subs. Yes, 22 subs were used by Todd-AO Studio. You might want to look at the thread about which source material has ultra deep bass.
post #7271 of 9944
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

Well of course not. If you play flat down to 8 Hz but at 80 dB SPL tops, according to the graph above, you won't perceive anything below about 15 Hz.

Agreed, but the sound engineers have already EQ everything sonically flat. This phenomenon has already been corrected for. If you're flat, you're reproducing what the sound engineers wanted you to hear. In short, you're golden. If you jack anything up, then your outside their purvey which isn't a crime, but in doing so, nothing is being corrected for other than the shortcomings of the subwoofer sound reproduction system.

Stating the obvious, that's what all those sliders on the sound board are for. They may have a smile shape on their sound board but to replicate what they recorded, the end user needs to have a flat response. And if one doesn't have a flat response, the end user is adding or subtracting away from what the sliders on the sound board represent.

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Engineers in sound mixing rooms have EQ'd everything sonically flat to what frequency at the low end?

Is it the same cutoff frequency for all channels?

Do they use bass management?
post #7272 of 9944
Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by D Bone View Post

Is there even any content in movies or music that has 8hz info? Is wanting a sub that extends to 8hz like wanting a car that can go 200mph.......Fun to talk about, but in reality it means nothing?

In Black Hawk down, there is some 8 Hz content in the "F**king Irene" scene. The sound track was mixed using 22 Bag End subs. Yes, 22 subs were used by Todd-AO Studio. You might want to look at the thread about which source material has ultra deep bass.



Do you know what specific part of that F'ing Irene scene has that 8 Hz bass? In other words, what is happening on the screne when that 8 Hz shows up on the sound system?

Yes, they used 22 Bag End Subwoofers to mix that movie. However, they were not all used for the LFE channel nor is that system bass managed. In addition, I don't recall that sytsem can play 8 Hz loud enough to matter.
post #7273 of 9944
Quote:
Originally Posted by D Bone View Post

Is there even any content in movies or music that has 8hz info? Is wanting a sub that extends to 8hz like wanting a car that can go 200mph.......Fun to talk about, but in reality it means nothing?

Only 10% of all sorce content goes below 15hz. Thats up to you to decide if its worth it or not. I believe it is if you want to spend the coin it takes to get good output below 15hz. Like I said previously, I would rather have a reference capable system down to 15hz compared to a system that will extend down below 10hz but not play reference levels below 20hz. Single digit extension is most likely one helluva experience being you can get reference output. In my room it would take a pair of Triax's which would net a ULF score of 521(4.5stars), which would be reference capable down to 10hz.
post #7274 of 9944
Quote:
Originally Posted by D Bone View Post

Is there even any content in movies or music that has 8hz info? Is wanting a sub that extends to 8hz like wanting a car that can go 200mph.......Fun to talk about, but in reality it means nothing?

Considering the effort and money put forth in making competitive automobiles go faster, I would say the auto analogy isn't the best example to use. As stated by others, in the end, it's all about the Benjamins and how many one is willing to throw at a problem. If I had the Benjamins, I'd already have on order two Triaxs or better. We have enough to throw at two, maybe a third lesser sub and then it's "Goodnight Irene."

(for balance, I'd like to add, people race lawnmowers.....what's with that? eek.gif)

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 11/14/13 at 12:23pm
post #7275 of 9944
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Do they use bass management?

The answer to that question; it all depends on what is, is? The point, if a sound engineer is using sliders at the sound board level, they're managing bass. confused.gif
post #7276 of 9944
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Do you know what specific part of that F'ing Irene scene has that 8 Hz bass? In other words, what is happening on the screne when that 8 Hz shows up on the sound system?

Yes, they used 22 Bag End Subwoofers to mix that movie. However, they were not all used for the LFE channel nor is that system bass managed. In addition, I don't recall that sytsem can play 8 Hz loud enough to matter.

So, reproducing the 8Hz content in Black Hawk Down is some kind of urban legend? How many of the 22 subs were used to mix Irene? Maybe we need a Thigpen Rotary to do justice to single digit material...
post #7277 of 9944
For your information and entertainment, here are two setups from AVS members that can play F***ing Irene as intended:


Be sure to watch Popalock's vids of the Irene scene biggrin.gif Note that he did in fact damage his house (cracks on the stairs) with that setup.

So Brian... still in for reference level @ 8 Hz? biggrin.gif
post #7278 of 9944
Hahaha
post #7279 of 9944
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

Be sure to watch Popalock's vids of the Irene scene biggrin.gif Note that he did in fact damage his house (cracks on the stairs) with that setup.

So Brian... still in for reference level @ 8 Hz? biggrin.gif

I'm going take a flyer on this one. Cracks on the stairs? Damage to the house? Zero minus WAF?
post #7280 of 9944
According to Carp who has 8 18" seal subs, he does not care for 15hz and below as he finds his room was shaking and rattling below 15 but at his MLP, he does not feel as much. He did an extended test before he made his conclusion. Your room might act differently. To me , if I can hit reference at 15 and flat from 15 and up, I am happy smile.gif. There are only a few of us here chasing reference with single digit.
post #7281 of 9944
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboys View Post

According to Carp who has 8 18" seal subs, he does not care for 15hz and below as he finds his room was shaking and rattling below 15 but at his MLP, he does not feel as much. He did an extended test before he made his conclusion. Your room might act differently. To me , if I can hit reference at 15 and flat from 15 and up, I am happy smile.gif. There are only a few of us here chasing reference with single digit.

I never watch at anything more than -15

Does that mean I only need to be flat using 90-95 test signals?
post #7282 of 9944
Quote:
Originally Posted by raynist View Post

I never watch at anything more than -15

Does that mean I only need to be flat using 90-95 test signals?

I think it's more along the lines of what your ego demands of you. In my opinion, a noteworthy system demands flat reference capability down to what ever frequency floats your boat.. As Cowboys noted, the frequency that floats his boat, is anything >/=15Hz. In the end, everything is financially relative; how many Benjamins do you have to throw at the idea?

Based on the above rambling, according to the well thought out ULF thread, information found in the second post, depending on room acoustics, Nirvana will be found some where between a 4 & 4.5 star system. The second post in the ULF thread will give someone a reasonable idea of what it will take to get one where they want to go.
post #7283 of 9944
Just saw this interesting tidbit on HTS

"Power Sound Audio announced a deal with Deep Hertz Audio to distribute PSA Subwoofers in Australia and New Zealand. The first shipment of products will take place some time in November, 2013."
post #7284 of 9944
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

I think it's more along the lines of what your ego demands of you. In my opinion, a noteworthy system demands flat reference capability down to what ever frequency floats your boat.. As Cowboys noted, the frequency that floats his boat, is anything >/=15Hz. In the end, everything is financially relative; how many Benjamins do you have to throw at the idea?

Based on the above rambling, according to the well thought out ULF thread, information found in the second post, depending on room acoustics, Nirvana will be found some where between a 4 & 4.5 star system. The second post in the ULF thread will give someone a reasonable idea of what it will take to get one where they want to go.
My room is only a 2.5
post #7285 of 9944
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post

My room is only a 2.5

It is.........if you decide not to add another XS30. biggrin.gif

What did you figure the XS30 SI factor to be?

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 11/14/13 at 4:42pm
post #7286 of 9944
Quote:
To me , if I can hit reference at 15 and flat from 15 and up, I am happy smile.gif.

Yeah I’m at 14 flat at ref, and totally happy with that. Higher tuned options are Ok too, but I find 14-15 to be more than plenty. Maybe I would feel different if I swapped things out and shot for 5 (I do have the components on hand) but I dunno, I’m a happy basser at 14hz. If there was more material out there with lower bass, I would in a heartbeat! wink.gif
post #7287 of 9944
Have you ever tried an IB system?
post #7288 of 9944
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

It is.........if you decide not to add another XS30. biggrin.gif

What did you figure the XS30 SI factor to be?

-
I didnt i just used their estimate of .7

I will eventually get a second. But not until we move and i have a dedicated room
post #7289 of 9944
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Have you ever tried an IB system?

I never have Bee, but I have thought about it more than once though. I actually had that in mind when I decided to build the sub in my Avatar.
post #7290 of 9944
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

I never have Bee, but I have thought about it more than once though. I actually had that in mind when I decided to build the sub in my Avatar.

Not trying to blow smoke up your skirt but with your skills, for giggles, I would expect that it'd be easy to knockout a couple of IB units. confused.gif
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