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Power Sound Audio Discussion Thread! - Page 45

post #1321 of 3479
I know I may sound all over the place but truth be told allot of this has been discussed with Tom behind the scenes. I'm not trying to flood this thread with my dilemma.
post #1322 of 3479
I talked to Tom over about 30 emails, I gave him a detailed drawing of my room along with where I would have to place my subs. I went with dual XS30s and while I haven't measured their output yet Tom said I would have clean output all the way down to 7-8hz, and from the way my whole house shacks I would say that I have to believe Tom's prediction is right! My theater is 2100cubic/ft and opens up to a 10x10 area.
post #1323 of 3479
It seems like there isn't a single XS30 owner with a SPL meter.
post #1324 of 3479
Actually I was going to buy one this week. I would have bought one already, but like most of the time life just gets in the way and I run out of time for things that are only hobbies.
post #1325 of 3479
Quote:
Originally Posted by walke108 View Post

In my humble and most "uneducated" opinion, 2 XS-30s would be great in 4600 Sq ft. My single does wonders in 3000 sq ft. I had to go with nearfield placement because my listening position was in a null in the previous location. 2 subs would take care of that but not worth it on my setup. I would take the dual XS-30s any day!

+1
I love my dual XS-30's in a 4400 Cu ft. room. I am "uneducated" too, but I love what I hear/feel. For me, I was looking for more output in the midbass area, that my dual HSU ULS 15's weren't giving me. I got it now! I don't notice a difference in the low frequencies, nothing is lacking, but maybe that's just MY setup in MY room. I do own a SPL meter, and one of these days I will get around to measuring. For now, the limited time I have to spend in my theater is going to be spent enjoying movies:D
post #1326 of 3479
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaviorMachine View Post

It seems like there isn't a single XS30 owner with a SPL meter.

I have one and I just ordered an OmniMic from PartsExpress to help plot the response more accurately than REW + my RS meter.

What exactly are you looking for? My room opens to many other parts of the house so I believe my room-gain is very low and I wouldn't get the high single-digit/low teen responses like a more sealed, dedicated room would. With the rolloff on the XS30 the output at those levels for me without much room gain would be pretty low, but I haven't had the chance to measure anything yet.

BTW, I have a single XS30 in a 2200-2300 cu. ft. room.
Edited by lewdogg - 1/23/13 at 10:48am
post #1327 of 3479
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post

as Tom, puts it..98% of LFE content is from 16hz and up so is the goal realistic to go for the deepest extension possible?

Realistic for most, probably not. However I'm usually unrealistic. I've learned that if I just buy what I want to accomplish my goal, it costs less in the end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by walke108 View Post

Not trying to sound rude here but if you look at his previous posts, He is all over the place. One day he has a headache from too much bass, the next day he is upset because his cup of water doesn't move wink.gif. In my humble and most "uneducated" opinion, 2 XS-30s would be great in 4600 Sq ft. My single does wonders in 3000 sq ft. I had to go with nearfield placement because my listening position was in a null in the previous location. 2 subs would take care of that but not worth it on my setup. I would take the dual XS-30s any day!

Don't be scared to be rude. Sometimes that's what it takes to get a point across. ;-) I'm still torn between dual XS30's, dual FV15HP or just giving up and going DIY. I'm just to lazy for DIY.
post #1328 of 3479
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDean View Post

Realistic for most, probably not. However I'm usually unrealistic. I've learned that if I just buy what I want to accomplish my goal, it costs less in the end.
Don't be scared to be rude. Sometimes that's what it takes to get a point across. ;-) I'm still torn between dual XS30's, dual FV15HP or just giving up and going DIY. I'm just to lazy for DIY.

With the new SI HT18s that came out recently you could get A LOT of bang for your buck, assuming of course, you're not too lazy. biggrin.gif
post #1329 of 3479
No doubt mmarki, if you're happy, then measurement is just an esoteric curiosity. Still it's odd that at the AVScience forum, in a subwoofer thread, there are all these high end sub owners, all of them guessing where their systems roll off.

Gorilla83's sub shootout thread had some interesting measurements of the much less powerful XS15 in a large room... these measurements make me wonder what's up with XS30 owners dissatisfied with that sub's extension.
post #1330 of 3479
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDean View Post

Realistic for most, probably not. However I'm usually unrealistic. I've learned that if I just buy what I want to accomplish my goal, it costs less in the end.
Don't be scared to be rude. Sometimes that's what it takes to get a point across. ;-) I'm still torn between dual XS30's, dual FV15HP or just giving up and going DIY. I'm just to lazy for DIY.
Well that's a great dilemma to have. Going to come down to price, listening habits, ported versus sealed. It doesn't take many searches to see how highly regarded the FV15HP is in addition to their customer service. I had a budget set and PSA gave me the most bang for the buck. I ende up upgrading to the XS-30 from the XV-15 to future proof my purchase. No regrets whatsoever in any aspect of my purchase or product. Like I said, you can't go wrong, especially with the duals!
post #1331 of 3479
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaviorMachine View Post

No doubt mmarki, if you're happy, then measurement is just an esoteric curiosity. Still it's odd that at the AVScience forum, in a subwoofer thread, there are all these high end sub owners, all of them guessing where their systems roll off.

Gorilla83's sub shootout thread had some interesting measurements of the much less powerful XS15 in a large room... these measurements make me wonder what's up with XS30 owners dissatisfied with that sub's extension.



1)Many individuals are more interested in simply enjoying the system versus attempting to measure individual speaker/subwoofer performance metrics to suit someone's request on an internet forum.. Even with professional grade equipment accurately measuring subwoofer performance "in room" can be difficult and time consuming. There's a few user charts posted at the shack that show extension flat out to 10hz though (xs30) if anyone is curious. I'm sure we'll see more and more user measurements as time goes on,. The XS30 is obviously very popular but it has only been shipping for just over a month now. Give it a little time.

2)IIRC, Gorilla83 had the XS15 relatively flat to the 10hz range. I'm not sure if everyone would consider the room "large" though. Also, I'm not sure I'd label the XS15 as "much less powerful" either. That's part of the problem when trying to determine the root cause of any problem like this. Subjective comments begin to get randomly added which tend to increase the variables(and therefore the potential solutions) exponentially.

Are there """XS30 owners dissatisfied with that sub's extension"""" ? So far I've seen one instance of someone less than satisfied and I'm hesitant to label that as an extension issue...in fact I'm certain its not. It may be a response issue, or an output issue(in a very limited bandwidth), placement(acoustic center)issue, or a room mode issue, or even a furniture issue....its just a guessing game with the information available.

While I would love each customer to have a test rig capable of accurate FR,output versus THD, decay, etc.....that's not realistic. Even SPL meters are getting more rare as nearly all modern receivers have auto-setup routines these days.

The real key is finding a solution that ultimately ends with each customer 100% satisfied. We're working on it..smile.gif


Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
post #1332 of 3479
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaviorMachine View Post

No doubt mmarki, if you're happy, then measurement is just an esoteric curiosity. Still it's odd that at the AVScience forum, in a subwoofer thread, there are all these high end sub owners, all of them guessing where their systems roll off.

Gorilla83's sub shootout thread had some interesting measurements of the much less powerful XS15 in a large room... these measurements make me wonder what's up with XS30 owners dissatisfied with that sub's extension.

SaviorMachine, check out the link below. Below is the written part without the pictures, etc.. Hope this helps!

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64133&referrerid=110647

Power Sound Audio XS30 - Review and First Impressions

The XS30 is a dual 15” driver sealed sub offered by Power Sound Audio (PSA) as part of its “Power X” subwoofer line. I recently had the good fortune of purchasing two XS30's for my 1800^3 ft dedicated home theater during PSA’s initial pre-order offering. At a cost of $1,149 each and a 5 year transferable warranty, the XS30 represents a phenomenal value offering amazing sound and quality at a very competitive price.

Before digging into the review of the XS30, I’m compelled to speak about my buying experience and the unusually extraordinary customer service that PSA provides. You may have read that PSA's customer service is off the charts. I can 100% confirm that it is in fact OFF the charts! I began looking at PSA’s Power X lineup as a favor for a friend that needed help researching a sub for a new theater system. This is when I was first exposed to comments on various enthusiast sites praising PSA’s personable customer service and buying experience, not to mention solid reviews of their XS15 and XV15 subs. This fueled my own interest in a possible sub upgrade that I had been planning for sometime later this year. That targeted timeframe changed once I began a very open and honest dialog with Tom Vodhanel of PSA. I found several things refreshing about our dialog. Tom never once bashed a competitor, in fact he praised many offerings by competitors. He appeared interested and willing to give advice even if it didn't mean a sale, and was very enthused about the quality of his company’s subs. I'm not sure if PSA can maintain the level of communication I experienced as demand for their subwoofers grows, but the quick response time to emails (not to mention the fact that you are emailing with one of THE designers) and the depth of knowledge sharing was very impressive - a customer’s dream! This level of interaction has remained true even after receiving the subs (set-up advice has been easy to get, detailed, and helpful and PSA has been quick to reasonably respond to any issues). Long story short, my upgrade bug turned into a full-blown ICU septic situation and my better half gave me the nod to proceed with purchasing dual XS30's as a quick sure-shot cure!

Communication about my order remained strong until delivery day. The PSA XS30 is a large sub that requires a large box. My shipment was handled by a freight company. The XS30 is shipped by being strapped to a pallet which the freight company happily delivered directly to my garage. The shipping weight for a single XS30 is roughly 116lbs (145 lbs if you include the pallet), so only plan on moving this hulking box with the aid of a friend, or, if you are lucky, by sliding the box on towels over wood floors. Internally, PSA protects the XS30 with plastic and foam. The unit’s grills are boxed separately, safely sealed in plastic sleeves and surrounded by bubble-wrap, and placed on top of the sub.



Now onto the nuts and bolts: The physical characteristics of the XS30. These subs are hulking beasts! Their cabinets are generous in size and, as you may have seen in photos, have a grainy exterior that is black in color. No seams are evident around the exterior of the cabinet. It's a very interesting, if not unique, surface. At first glance, the cabinets appear to have a bit of sheen when exposed to light (initially I was concerned that they would reflect light in my light controlled theater room, however this has proven to be a non-issue). Each sub sports round black rubber feet - roughly an inch thick - set-in several inches in from the sides of the cabinet. In addition to the cabinets, the 15” drivers have a commanding appearance. Overall, I find the XS30’s looks to be edgy and mysterious, and must note that with their grills off and drivers exposed they look refined and ready for one purpose: Bringing serious LFE!







The cabinets themselves feel ROCK solid. A quick knuckle rap test tells the story. It produces a solid thud (other subs I have on-hand are quite the opposite, sounding hollow and thin compared to the XS30). The cabinet also feels solid when handling. Weighing in at 110 lbs, the XS30 feels secure and robust when lifting and moving around. Picking up an XS30 is almost like picking up a giant brick!

The XS30 is powered by a 725W (1450W peak) DSP Bash Amplifier. The exterior plate to the amp has “Power X” emblazoned on it. The controls are standard fair: Power toggle (on, auto, off), gain, phase, crossover, power plug, two input jacks, and a small green light that subtly glows when the unit is turned on. The various knobs and switches all feel solid.



Each unit comes with a user guide and a power cord. The user guide includes instructions on upacking the unit, advice on room placement, installation procedures, and connecting the subwoofer. My only qualm is that the unpacking instructions are “in” the user guide. It seems to me that those would best displayed on the exterior of the shipping box (or provided in the shipping confirmation email). Most users probably unpack their sub before opening the user manual and any unpacking advice, especially for owners that have never unpacked a subwoofer this heavy, is probably best offered in an easily visible place.



Once I unpacked the XS30’s, I began the task of properly placing them within my theater. I tried roughly 6 different placement configurations (center of side walls, center of front and back walls, front corner/back corner, front corner/ 1/4 side wall, 1/4 of side walls, and 1/4 of front wall). After taking REW measurements from 3 different seating positions for each configuration, I decided the best places for the XS30’s are at the 1/4 points along the front wall. This configuration gave the most even response in my room across the center and far-left/far-right seating positions. Because of some space issues, they are turned at a 45 degree angle (pointing toward the middle of the front wall).

Here are the REW room measurements I recorded during placement. I chose the configuration represented by the measurements shown in the upper left graph.



CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v62), quality = 100



Note, in a light controlled environment, the light reflected from the exterior of the XS30's is hardly visible and a non-issue.



Upon setting the gain on each XS30 to about 68-70 dB (when run simultaneously they reach about 78 dB), phase to 0, crossover to 150Hz, and measuring the sub distance using MCACC (note, my Elite AVR manages the crossover which is set at 80Hz), I began the process of equalizing the subs using REW software and a Behringer Feedback Destroyer Pro DSP1124 parametric equalizer. After placing 7 filters, I managed a decently flat response to about 19Hz. As you can see, I have a TON of room gain from 40hz right on down to about 10hz. Wow, is right. Just as Tom Vodhanel had predicted, the XS30's use room gain to their advantage. They sink their teeth right into sub-sonic frequencies and take a HUGE merciless bite to about 9Hz before there is any drop off. That is flat-out nasty.




Now to the goods. The meat of the matter. The reason why you are probably reading this.... "HOW DO THEY SOUND," you ask? Let's just say this: Incredible. I have had the pleasure of watching about 10 films over the past 3 weeks. These films have included heavy action titles like Battleship, Dredd, Looper, Prometheus, Warrior, and Total Recall (2012 release) to movies with less emphasis on audio like Jonathan Levein’s 50/50. And what a treat it has been!

I love bass and shake, hence my seating is wired with 6 bass shakers. Prior to the arrival of the XS30’s, these shakers drove the bass experience our theater. Not any more. Enter the PSA heavy hitters. The XS30’s are now the star of the show. That is not to say the shakers are disengaged. However, they now compliment, rather than lead, the theater’s bass experience.

What I’ve found through my hours of movie watching is an extremely even, tight, and smooth bass. It’s not localized or one sided in it’s presentation - not in the slightest bit. It can be felt pulsating through the room. It is consistently in control and it never loses its composure. I have driven the XS30’s hard (roughly -4 on my Elite’s dial which is about as much as I am interested in handling). The bass gives and gives and sounds like it could easily give more. With my bass shakers off, the XS30‘s pulsate bass through the couch and have an excellent slam factor. And, wow, can they play low - easily handling 16Hz warble test tones.

From gun shots to the bass lines in AC/DC's "Thunderstruck" to the various LFE's paired with machines and engines, the XS30's really deliver the goods. Impactful, airy, present, and thick. Just a few highlights: As the sky divers jump from the crashing Osprey in Transformers: Dark of the Moon, there is a thumping effect that the XS30’s play as tight, loud, and composed as I have ever heard in my home theater. Same goes for the quick thuds associated with Dan firing his shotgun during his run to the train station in 3:10 Yuma (not to mention, the LFE associated with the train arrival is tight, hard hitting, and rumblelicious!). The ultra-low frequency effects in Battleship associated with the forcefield shooting in the air from the alien craft in the water... well, let's just say they it's alive and PULSATES through the room. And, the insanely punishing 10Hz material presented in Dredd is played with authority. Never bottoming out or sounding as if it is simply too much for the XS30’s to handle.

The XS30’s also have a musical side and a softer side. This is completely on display during the movie 50/50. The bass lines from Radiohead’s High and Dry and Pearl Jam’s Yellow Leddbetter (both featured songs in the movie) are wonderfully tight and really show-off the complimentary nature between the XS30’s and my RTiA 5 mains. Never dominant, but wonderfully present. The XS30s also accurately present all the subtle bass that we experience during movies like car doors shutting, distant rumbles, and background music.

I have to mention, during all of the thunderous LFE the XS30’s dish-out during movies, their cabinets remain calm. I have placed my hands on the top and sides of the cabinets on numerous occasions and you’d never know they were subs were on. No vibration, no rattling, practically inert.

If you look at the total package: Reasonable cost and warranty, solid construction, aggressive design, great performance, and top notch customer service. It’s safe to say that Power Sound Audio has a very hot product on its hands. The XS30 is going to give the competition fits. These two units have been a fantastic addition to my home theater experience. If you are in the market for a new sub, do yourself a favor and add one to your short list. You won’t regret it.

Read more: Power Sound Audio XS30 - first impressions - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com
Edited by walke108 - 1/23/13 at 11:59am
post #1333 of 3479
Quote:
Originally Posted by lewdogg View Post

I have one and I just ordered an OmniMic from PartsExpress to help plot the response more accurately than REW + my RS meter.

What exactly are you looking for? My room opens to many other parts of the house so I believe my room-gain is very low and I wouldn't get the high single-digit/low teen responses like a more sealed, dedicated room would. With the rolloff on the XS30 the output at those levels for me without much room gain would be pretty low, but I haven't had the chance to measure anything yet.

BTW, I have a single XS30 in a 2200-2300 cu. ft. room.


I don't have any hands-on with the PE rig but I'd spend a day or two with it just making sure all your measurements are repeatable, etc. After that, have at it...I bet many will be interested in your FR at various positions to start. .smile.gif You can also do a NF(mic about an inch from a 15" cone) response. This will show what the room is doing to the bass(and your room gain will be particularly interesting).

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
post #1334 of 3479
Thanks for that link, Walke! I haven't been to the Shack in a few weeks and hadn't caught it.

Tom, I don't doubt your published performance specs one bit. In fact I trust them implicitly. It's just that there's a lot of subjective talk around this thread and a surprising dearth of objective measurement, as you notice. I agree with you that this is sure to change over time.
post #1335 of 3479
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokenAshes View Post

I have like OCD or something. I'm trying to justify on buying a bigger sub I think. But I just hooked up the old HSU again and I don't know what's going but I really am not seeing a big difference that I should be seeing. Its driving me crazy.

Is it normal where you turn the volume up high you start to lose the SPL of the bass? Like when I turn it up the ULF gets less and less.


Yes, that is normal. What you are hearing is visually represented in a "compression" graph. Here is an third party compression graph on the XV15 (long term power compression)

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=88&mset=95

You'll notice all the sweeps look very similar until the very top. This shows how the subwoofer "compresses" at the highest output levels. (110dB outside, 2m).

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
post #1336 of 3479
Quote:
Originally Posted by banyar View Post

2 XV15s would perform nearly the same in terms of extension, output, and overall sound quality that one XV30?


If the dual XV15s were separated a bit, say in adjacent corners of the room then yes---the performance would be very similar. The dual XV15s would have the potential to provide smoother bass coverage over a variety of seating positions though.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
post #1337 of 3479
So we had a house warming party last weekend. And during half time of the Ravens/Broncos game I played some bass heavy music, turned off the speakers so it was just the XV15 playing and cranked it up. My friends that were over aren't really into HT and have been indoctrinated by Bose so they were blown away by its size.

So when I cranked up the jams my wife comes down the stairs an asks with a smile "Are you having fun? Everyone upstairs thought we were having another small earthquake because the floor is shaking and I had to remind them it's your toy." My buddy thought it was the funniest thing in the world and the look of "What is that thing and what is happening" on my little niece's face was priceless. Thanks tom and PSA!

- Brad
post #1338 of 3479
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLaw612 View Post

So we had a house warming party last weekend. And during half time of the Ravens/Broncos game I played some bass heavy music, turned off the speakers so it was just the XV15 playing and cranked it up. My friends that were over aren't really into HT and have been indoctrinated by Bose so they were blown away by its size.

So when I cranked up the jams my wife comes down the stairs an asks with a smile "Are you having fun? Everyone upstairs thought we were having another small earthquake because the floor is shaking and I had to remind them it's your toy." My buddy thought it was the funniest thing in the world and the look of "What is that thing and what is happening" on my little niece's face was priceless. Thanks tom and PSA!

- Brad

biggrin.gif sounds like a proud owner...
post #1339 of 3479
Quote:
Originally Posted by banyar View Post

biggrin.gif sounds like a proud owner...

Sounds like MANY proud owners in this thread.
post #1340 of 3479
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLaw612 View Post

So we had a house warming party last weekend. And during half time of the Ravens/Broncos game I played some bass heavy music, turned off the speakers so it was just the XV15 playing and cranked it up. My friends that were over aren't really into HT and have been indoctrinated by Bose so they were blown away by its size.

So when I cranked up the jams my wife comes down the stairs an asks with a smile "Are you having fun? Everyone upstairs thought we were having another small earthquake because the floor is shaking and I had to remind them it's your toy." My buddy thought it was the funniest thing in the world and the look of "What is that thing and what is happening" on my little niece's face was priceless. Thanks tom and PSA!

- Brad

I wish my wife would have that kind of attitude. tongue.gif Seems like PSA has a lot of happy customers.
post #1341 of 3479
Yep. Definitely one here!
post #1342 of 3479
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post

Yep. Definitely one here!

I"m ONE More.
XS30 proud Owner. biggrin.gif
post #1343 of 3479
+1 very happy with my xv-15 biggrin.gif
post #1344 of 3479
extremely happy dual XV15 owner here. wink.gif
post #1345 of 3479
Me too. I am a proud owner of dual XS30. Very happy with them. My wife realized I am spending too much time with the SUBS and is already jealous biggrin.gif. She finds all the reasons to not allow me to go to my theater tongue.gif
post #1346 of 3479
VERY happy owner of dual XS-30's
post #1347 of 3479
Same here! Very proud owner of an XS30 for sure. Haven't done a sub crawl but having the sub behind the couch right now sounds pretty good to me right now. May try the sub crawl within the next few weeks.

Watched Looper earlier this week and it has some good thump when they shoot off those guns. There's a scene where a shot goes off in a square room and that was pretty cool ka-thunk.

Then I saw someone mention the Underworld Awakening big monster scene. So I watched that again and man that scene is crazy good. Nice mid and low bass for sure.

I heard someone also mention that Dredd was really good too with some sneakup bass. I like seeing people including myself get hit by a unsuspected scene with a nice tight thump. Scares you in a good way. smile.gif
post #1348 of 3479
Dual XV-15s supposed to be delivered tomorrow! Currently sitting in Oregon (150 miles away). Lets hope they make it!!
post #1349 of 3479
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrsinister View Post

Currently sitting in Oregon (150 miles away).

I hate it when things do that. tongue.gif
post #1350 of 3479
On truck for delivery!
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