Power Sound Audio Discussion Thread! - Page 9

>>>Thanks for the response! I think I'm set on this thing. Hopefully I'll be able to pull the trigger here in within the next couple of months or so, but it might end up being a Christmas present to myself.<<<<br />
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>>>Great info Tom, I still have about a month before decision time so will wait on the subwoofer meet and also hopefully Ricco review.<<<<br />
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You guys are very welcome. There is never any rush to order.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

Hi Gorilla83

We have a few new subwoofer designs going through the usual outside measurements and inside listening sessions. But there is no set schedule on when they may be "done". It could be several months or even well into 2013. When we are getting close we'll let you know..

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

Got my XV15 today. I will try to set it up and do some listening and give a mini review within the next couple of days.

Any chance to see an option for a vertical XV30? The current dimensions work ok if it was 3ft heigh instead of 3ft deep or wide.

Hi Tom,

I know this might not be too popular on this thread, but I would love to see you guys bring out some fully sealed, small form factor subwoofers that would work well with the many popular satellite speakers around these days - say something like the shelved SVS SB10-NSD or a 12" Cubed with a 10" Driver - any likelihood?

Bazzy!

Hello GTP,

Not at this moment. We have had a couple inquires about that but based on our minimums with our cabinet vendor we would likely need 6-8 pre orders in the queue to get the ball rolling.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

Hi Bazzy,

Eventually, quite possible. There's nothing in the latter stages of development right now though. What price range were you shopping at? There are a couple subs out there now that may work fine for you. Any specific needs as far as inputs/options?(speaker level inputs for example?

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

Hey Tom, I have been researching for a new sub/subs for a while, and I think I have found what I want in PSA.
I currently have an A3-300 from the now defunct company we dont speak of.
Ive been pushing it hard in the current space and I think its time to retire her since I dont want to risk blowing the amp.

My room dimensions stink - 20 x 16 x 15 - with openings to the kitchen and family room. Not the best, but thats all I have to work with.

I was initially looking at getting two Epik Empires, until somebody turned me on to PSA.

My initial thought was the xv30, but I may be better served by two 15's in different locations in the room. Not sure if I should go with the sealed or vented.
The subs will be mostly for HT, and maybe 10% music.
The rest of the system consists of a Denon 4311, 2 RTI-a9's, a CSI-a6, and two R50's for the rear (i know I have to swap those out).

What would you guys go with in my shoes or recommend.
Edited by pikkashoe - 10/12/12 at 2:34pm

2 XV15s for HT used with your awesome 4311 Denon

Yeah the 4311 is awesome. audessy xt32 sure was worth the upgrade. Now to finish off the system with the subs and getting new surrounds.

Hi Pikkashoe,

Would you be able to send me a basic room diagram? If so, please include the listening positions, openings into the room and the top 2-3 subwoofer positions you have in mind. You can send the drawing to support@powersoundaudio.com if you don't want to post it here. Chances are if you do go with duals, I would lean toward the larger, vented XV15s based on room size/openings and your film/music ratio.

Thanks,

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

Hey Tom

Thanks for replying, I appreciate you chiming in and look forward to doing business with you.

I will draw it up tomorrow and post it on here.

Hello Tom

All the best with your venture

Back in around 2002-01. SVS was a new company and I ask you if 2 of your cylinder Subs would be better than my 4 DIY.

You and I, went through around a dozen e-mail back and foward . You always tried to help me with mine design and never tried to make a sale.

Then, came the the PB2.
I did purchase 1 than 2:)

Now I got 2 BP13- Ultra.

Your design have always been one of the best.

I am looking forward for you and your company to make greath achivement.

Ray

Room diagram as requested. Let me know what you think

Hi Pikkashoe,

Almost 5000 cu-ft with openings to other areas.

If you went with dual subs, where were you thinking of placing the second sub---perhaps to the side of the sofa near the steps?

The choice will come down to two questions:

1)Have you calibrated the system? If so, what would you typically consider *loud* volume levels? -9dB(under reference), -6dB? Other?

2)If you did start with a single XV30, would you eventually consider adding a second for even more output capabilities?

Dual XV15s (separated) will perform very similar to a single corner loaded XV30 in extension, headroom(clean output)and overall sound quality. Either option should offer solid extension down to the 17-19hz range with clean output(at your seating positions) of 115-121dB. Assuming all speakers set to small and you'l run the bass 1-3dB *hot*....i'd say you are fine for master volume levels all the way up to -3dB to 0(full reference). So the only reason I could see considering a second XV30 would be if you wanted to exceed reference levels(perhaps for very short demos?) or to help smooth out the overall level/frequency response across all the seating positions. Also, it never hurts to have a little extra headroom, that way the subwoofer(s) will be able to recreate the most dynamic peaks with more realism.

If there was no/little chance of adding a second XV30 down the road *OR* your master volume levels will rarely exceed say...3-6dB under reference level I would definitely go with the dual XV15s. As mentioned above(and by "Cowboys" a few posts up), extension and headroom will be very close (to the single XV30) and the dual sub system will almost certainly give you better quality bass across your entire sofa(more even output levels and smoother overall frequency response.)

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

Hi Ray,

Thank you for the comments. It sounds like you are all set regarding bass now..

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

Hey Tom,

I usually play blu ray movies at reference, or right below (its limited now due to the A3-300 not being able to keep up with the rest of the system as it will cut off/shut down alot of times).
The system is calibrated using the denon/xt 32. At reference, it is loud. I should be watching movies probably at -6 like u pointed out, but I think I crank up it up more the lfe.
Im sure it will be different with the new subs.

I was thinking of placing the second sub by the couch by the stairs like you said, but I have to measure, and im currently away on business.
Other place I may put it, is on the left wall.

I have all speakers set currently to small, the setting for the sub now is irrelevant since im pushing it just to make it sound good. 3 db hot didnt do much, i think im at 6 db hot if I remember correctly.

I dont think i could watch a whole movie with the RTI-a9's over reference, unless I wanted my ears to bleed. I think dual xv30's would be complete overkill for me, it would be nice to have alot of overheard to work with, but I couldnt justify the expense.

I like the idea of two xv15's vs the one xv30 because of the even output across all the seating positions. But I guess the question is, does it make a big difference? One xv30 would make things alot easier for me.

So now to measure when I get back home. Thanks Tom, I will be in contact with you as I get closer to the purchase, which should be in the next month or so.

Hey Tom,
Love your stuff!! I was lucky enough to own a 20-39, an Ultra -12, then twin Ultras and finally, a 13 Ultra...Now, I find myself putting together another system. I'm wondering where and how your new subs compare to some of your older models. I am about 80/20 music to movies...my room is about 16X22 and sealed well. I was looking for something sealed, with the plans of getting a twin next year sometime. Having duals was a wonderful way to go, but budget constraints won't allow for duels just yet. I was seriously considering a couple of SB-12s until I found YOUR new company a couple of days ago. Thanks so much for your help and your wonderful products.
Dave

Hi Pikkashoe,

A single XV30 placed in the corner would work fine. While it is true that dual subs would have the POTENTIAL to smooth the response a bit over the entire sofa it is important to remember that the larger the room(and the more open) the less severe frequency issues in the bass region tend to be. So I'm guessing Audyessey will be able to EQ a single sub very well for your application. In regards to balancing output, I think the only seat that will be significantly impacted will be the end seat near the steps. This will likely be 3-5dB down from the average bass levels of the rest of the seats. That's not a big deal though as you will almost never have every seat in a room with equal bass levels. Also, you can often use a "weak" seat like that to your advantage. If you have a friend over for movies who often complains about the bass....you know where they should sit..

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

Hi Dave,

If you don't mind me asking----which receiver/processor and speakers will be used in the new system?

Initially I'm thinking XS15 for you. In this room size you are sure to see extension down to the 17-19hz range with the potential for usable output even deeper depending on room construction. Compared to the sb12? I'd say you would be looking at approximately the same output as dual SB12s but the XS15 would have quite a bit more usable extension in your room because of our shallow roll off <35hz.. The XS15 will have better waterfall/group delay measurements as well if that is something important to you(the audibility of these can be debated). If you have a receiver/processor that includes Audyssey "Sub EQ HT" going with dual subs tends to offer smoother overall response though...particularly if the seating positions are separated by a bit of distance in the room. Going with one more powerful subwoofer initially does give you an easier upgrade path down the road though(going from 1-2 instead of starting over or having 4 subs in the room). So you have to weigh all the pros and cons of each product.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

Thanks Tom,
This room is currently an NAD 773 and Dynaudio Audience 52s, So no "fancy" receivers here. I do have a Velodyne SMS sitting dark in my rack waiting for action though. I've had that since my first Ultra and love it. I went strictly 2 channel for a while and am now coming back full circle AGAIN. SOOOO...now I'm hunting subs. It's a pretty short list....Your company and that other sub human place. As far as listening, I'm mostly jazz and classic rock(Clapton, Pink Floyd) and anything that has a groove to it. One other thing....T SHIRTS!?

Hi Dave,

No shirts yet. We are getting around to them just have other priorities first.

I'm staying with my XS15 recommendation here. If you placed the XS15 in/near a corner of the room within say 2-3m of the key seat(s) you can expect clean/dynamic output all the way into the 109-115dB range over most of the intended bandwidth although it may be a little less than that in the real deep bass. It depends a bit on the construction of the room. Once you find a good spot, get the bass levels and crossover XO dialed in....break out the SMS and pull down any room induced peaks. Now you are ready to rock with either music or film material.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

Hi Tom, in theory what do better waterfall/group delay measurements show? Is the note more pure due to less ringing?

Your comment about the audibility is interesting... so you mean in your listening experience the audibility of better waterfall/group delay measurements is nil or very slight?

Hi Jchong,

It is not an easy subject in which to draw absolute conclusions as the variables are both many and layered. I think most would agree that all things being equal----the less ringing the better. Same with group delay. I would not "split hairs" with either though. For example, (<50hz) if one subwoofer shows 25ms of GD and another 35ms....I personally feel that is not an audible difference. But, if one subwoofer shows 25ms and another 75ms....that could be a different story., The tough part is determining if the GD itself imparts an audible effect or is it more likely that the "root "cause of the higher GD is the real problem? When "ringing" is discussed the more severe issues tend to be room induced. But, again, if there is a significant difference between two subwoofers I tend to think there would be an audible difference. However, if the room also added significant modes they could then mask the inherent ringing tied to the subwoofer design itself. That is one of those variables that has to be considered

In our listening tests we found different FR shapes made audible differences, even if the differences were very slight. Now, each time you re-shape the FR the decay and GD will change too. So it is very difficult to eliminate every variable during listening sessions. I can't say with certainty that much better decay and or GD will sound better to anyone....so I try to remember to put in that caveat----"the audibility could be debated" when the topic comes up. There is definitely a balancing act when shaping the deepest bass roll off and each manufacturer will likely have their own POV of course.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

Tom was kind enough to send over an XS15 a week prior to our GTG this coming weekend. I spent quite a few hours today listening to various types of music, all of which sounded fantastic. The overall sound is best described as tight, deep, and articulate. I can't help but wonder what 2-4 of these would sound like in my room. The small (relative) size of the sub make it very easy to place in my room. I can easily see 4-6 of them disappearing.

Fit and finish on this sub is pretty much perfect as far as my eye can see and my hand can feel. I really like the textured finish - rugged, yet very pleasing to the eye.

I did whip out the omnimic for a quick set of measurements - here is the result with NO Eq or Audyssey applied.

My room: 16' wide (average) x a total of 44' long. 8' drop ceiling, concrete floors with carpet. Room treatment consist of bass traps in the front corners. Sub is placed mid front wall about 8 inches from the wall. Mic positioning was about 16' back from the sub and 18' from the screen.

Can you say response down to 10hz?? No smoothing was applied in this graph.



Pictures of the sub as it arrived:

XS15 pics:






Movie demo with this guy coming up Monday/Tuesday nights this week.
Edited by Gorilla83 - 10/15/12 at 7:06am

Where is the mic position/listening position in the room (eg how far from sub etc) .I see potential. Would like to see the response with AUDY on and in the 90-95-100 db range. Staying in the room during it is optional .

Sorry, I knew I'd leave some detail out! The mic was in the main LP about 18' back from the screen and about 16.5' from the sub right where my head would be on the loveseat. I can gladly work in some higher sweeps at some point this week. Depending on time I can likely run XT32 and/or EQ with my omnimic. Staying in the room is not a problem. Stay tuned.

Another notable plus is that the amp on this sub, even when running for several hours was barely warm to the touch. I can appreciate this especially as an Epik Empire owner.

Could you take a size comparison pic with your Empire?

I found the same thing; no matter how long it was on, or how hard you drove it, the amp didn't seem to care.

that's an unbelievebly good looking graph. Nice