Rotel RSP-1572 Up and Running - Page 4

I run and have REW. I have some issues. Darn carpenters didn't listen to me. No parallel walls I said. I get real nice waterfalls. My 2 main SC-III''s seem to have a major suckout around 10 db @ 70Hz, the suckout is there even with the mic at 3' from the speaker at tweeter height. When I do smoothing at 1/3 octave all three front speaker measurements at the main listening position fall almost on top of each other. There is a gradual falloff from around 1 -1.5K out to a measured 20K. My frequency response falls off before the sweeps get to 20K, Sorry I can't be a little more specific, I don't have any measurements saved on this computer. Most of the casual measurements at the listening position fall within a 6-8 db band. I scale most readouts from around 90 db to 60.

I use an emm-6 mic and art usb dual pro external sound card, REW 5 on an old desktop running windows xp. I don't pretend to be a REW expert. I find it interesting to see the changes in the measured response when moving the microphone around in the room.

Seems quite good but not without issues worth fixing...............one way or another.

I am always looking to get to the next level. When it comes to correcting room modes one should exercise some judgment. If you are sitting in a room null and you have to push too much to correct that null because you don't want to move your seat or speakers you are suddenly putting a lot of stress on amplification and speakers. Say you are doing a couple 12 dB boosts to correct an issue on material with 25W peaks, all the sudden your amplifier needs to produce 400W peaks and your speakers need to handle it. Some room problems have to be lived with.

I don't mind getting some exercise walking my speakers around because they sound better in one location for one CD and then sound better in a different location for a different CD. I would hate to tell you how much weight I gained after I put my turntable in the closet.

Hi Guys,

I wanted to post some thoughts, and questions and experiences I have with my Rotel 1572. As you might know, I got mine back in October and I have been wresting with the audio clipping problem. (See above and in the Rotel owners thread)

I read Kal Rubinson's review with great interest last week in the March issue of Stereophile. I was disappointed he didn't comment on the clipping issue. And I am curious if he is aware of it and experienced it.

I have spoken to the dealer I bought mine from and they've experienced the same problem on their unit and have been talking to Mr. Sheehan at Rotel. I understand they are aware and working on a fix.

What was bugging me, aside from the annoyance of every track clipping, is that some people don't seem to have this issue. Yet there are many reports from others who do. And from other brands too. Mr. Rubinson didn't report it, so perhaps he's not experiencing it.

I thought I'd try an experiment because I wondered why sometimes I didn't hear the clipping and other times I did. I used the Coax connection from my Blu Ray player to the Rotel's CD input for Coax to avoid the HDMI. At first I thought solved it, but then I heard other CD's with clipping! So out of frustration, I tried to do a direct analog out from the BD player to the analog input on the Rotel. That of course solved it for sure. But I didn't like the sound. The BD player is a Sony from 2008.

So I tried a test with the optical toslink from my Sony BD player to test that theory. It is hooked up to the Optical-in on the Rotel and I programed to default to PCM 2 channel.

At first I thought this licked it. No clipping on the CD I played. I could not believe my ears. So I tried a few others. No clipping until I tried another CD and then it clipped!

I soon discovered that a consistent repeatable result would occur where the first track will clip, but the rest of the album will not if left to play undisturbed. But if I skip a track or select a track, that track starts with a clip. And the rest of the disc plays fine.

And then I found other CD's that clip every track. Just like with the HDMI connection. So I tested that theory and played back the same discs that only clipped the first track and plays the rest fine with the HDMI setting. The Optical setting is acting like the HDMI setting.

This lead me to a theory that perhaps some CD's have a digital signal built-in or some such thing so the Rotel cannot sense a break in the track. And when I told a buddy about my theory, he said that some CD's include something called a pre-gap. You can see if a CD has this if you see on the player's digital counter a negative number as it counts down to the next track. I did notice that most CD's I have with the pre-gap didn't clip. But I guess there is no pre-gap on the first track, so it clips.

I also wondered if each record company used different encoding methods. So here's where the methodical science comes in. I noted a few random CD's I pulled from my collection and played them to look for the pre-gap and for the clipping. Here's my results:

A&M Records Inc.
-Sheryl Crow, The Globe Sessions, no obvious clipping.

Apple Records
-The Beatles Remastered Mono Box Rubber Soul. First Track clips. Following tracks do not clip.
-The Beatles Remastered Stereo Past Masters. First track clips, following tracks do not clip.
-The Beatles Remastered Stereo Abbey Road. First track clips, following tracks do not clip.

Arista Records
-Sarah McLaughlin, Afterglow, Fumbling Towards Ecstacy. No clipping.

Astraworks EMI
-Kings of Convenience, Quiet is the New Loud. No clipping.

Capitol
-Cold Play, A Rush of Blood to the Head and Parachutes. No clipping.

Columbia
-The Byrds, Best of, all tracks clip

Columbia
-The Dave Brubeck Quartet, Time Out (2009 remaster Sony Music) no clipping.
-Miles Davis, Kind of Blue (2009 remaster Sony Music) there is clipping. I do hear a click or pop between tracks. If I select a track directly, there is clipping.

Elektra/Fiction
-The Cure, Galore the singles. Has countdown, but tracks still clip and start at 1 second in.

MCA
-Steely Dan, Aja. Has countdown, but clips each song. Faint click heard between tracks.

Warner
-Donald Fagan, The Nightfly. First track clips, Other tracks do not appear to clip.

So does Aritsa, Capitol Records and EMI do something different? It's clear to me why I didn't notice any clipping when I auditioned the Rotel at the dealer. I used those 3 albums by Coldplay, Sarah McLaughlin and Kings Of Convenience.

One other thing I did. My Sony BD player settings have to be set for audio out preference. So I set it to Optical preference during the test. I wanted to be sure the audio wasn't going through HDMI, I also tried a very old Sony CD player that had optical out to be extra sure no audio was going through HDMI and it gave the same results.

Another observation. Not surprising, the DAC from the Sony BD player I imagined was okay. And it was alright when I played analog out from that player to the Rotel. But when I went back to the optical out from the BD player and used the DAC in the Rotel, it sounded sweet! So this led to the question: Is the Oppo 95 worth it for me? I researched it and it's only really good reason to have is the built-in DAC and the analog outs. If I use the analog outs, then I don't use the DAC I paid for in the Rotel. It would only be used for movies.

When I heard how good the music sounded from the Rotel's DAC, I figured with my modest system of Rotel and B&W 805 speakers, I would be happy with the Oppo 93 via HDMI and optical connections. And I understand I could also use the analog 7.1 outs from the 93 and down mix to stereo.

I have been contemplating an Oppo 93 or 95 for some time. Everyone raves about their musical ability. And I found one thread on another forum where a user solved his clipping problem by using the optical from the Oppo 93 to his Rotel 1572. If that is true, then I would be amazed! I suspect its really about how the CD's are encoded that is confusing the Rotel and other pre-amps. So the HDMI software has to be re-written to allow for the gaps or to turn on the digital setting you want automatically before the CD plays.

Well, that's it for now. I plan to do more testing to see if I can get around the clipping. Not sure buying an Oppo will solve it! I am still waiting for Rotel for the proper fix and I still have confidence they will. I look forward to any comments from any one.

Wow. I did not hear any clipping with the discs I used. I used Oppo 83SE and Yamaha 1010 players.

Although I have none of the discs you listed (I listen mostly to classical), I would suspect that you tried so many that the problem must be widespread.

Thank you for responding so fast Mr. Rubinson!

I don't have a lot of classical. But I do have a 1986 Telarc CD of The Planets conducted by Previn. I haven't tried that CD, though I did play an Apple Lossless rip of it from my iPod to the Rotel! Wanted to see how that function worked. Plus I have the 2001: A Space Odyssey soundtrack and several other film scores. I'll try those this evening and report back.

Nelson

I've owned 4 Rotel processors - 1066, 1068, 1069 and 1570. All 4 of these models had the same digital lock issue. Rotel will more than likely be able to correct the lock on the coax/toslink connection. However the hdmi connection I am skeptical. I was told they were working on a fix for the 1069 and 1570 too.

I've spoken to several people trough the years at the b&w support group regarding this problem.
I was told its a design choice. Basically the unit looks for a default analog input first then digital. Thus it cannot detect the flag in time via hdmi.
Unless this unit is designed differently than the others, my advice would be either accept it or return it to a dealer.

I have my oppo 95 connected to my multi-channel input on the Rotel 1570 and find its sound to be far superior vs the Rotel dacs.
I find the Rotel adds almost a harsh, brittle sound to recordings. However, like anything, your mileage may differ.

Bty, every unit that my dealer has brought in exhibited the same issue too.

paradise-newf,

Thank you for your insights! If I had known about this HDMI issue before, I'd have thought twice about it. It's been about 5 months, not sure I can return it!

Thanks for explaining the process that the Rotel is looking for a default analog signal before a digital signal. What I noticed in my tests is with the HDMI connection, the clipping lasts 2 seconds. With the optical connection, the clipping is 1 second. So perhaps because the optical is going the speed of light, the Rotel can switch to digital faster? I think that's questionable, the HDMI connection must be pretty fast too!

I am glad to hear you think they can fix the coax/optical connection. At least the HDMI connection is working well for movies. Well, except times when I skip chapters on DVD and blu rays, there is that audio clipping.

Thanks for relating your experience with the Oppo. I am on the fence with either the 93 or 95. I was hoping the 93 would be enough, though I know the 95 has the better DACs for audio. And I know using the analog connection to the Rotel will bypass the clipping problem. It just seems a waste to bypass the Rotel's DAC. But as you said, ymmv. The 95 would he nice, but it's twice the cost of the 93.

Kal, I tried one classical album last night, The Planets on Telarc conducted by Andre Previn. As I thought, the first track clipped, but the rest didn't. I am guessing you didn't notice the clipping because the tracks you listened to start very quietly, so perhaps you just didn't hear it? I had to listen very hard for it.

Ah. When I read "clipping," I thought immediately of something different. I thought of waveform clipping as one would get from an overdriven analog circuit. So, yes, I did hear that on some material but I have experienced that to some degree with almost every AVR and prepro that I have used with HDMI. It is a consequence of the HDMI handshaking. It is shorter with some devices and longer with others. It can be greatly reduced if one has the option to specify HDMI as the default connection but it is greater with devices that scan other input options before going to HDMI.

It is a bit longer with the Rotel but I am used to it. I notice it most on TV channel changes where the Rotel takes longer than some others to lock/unmute the audio. Often, choose to hit the |<< button on the disc player remote immediately after signal lock. That resets the play to the beginning of the track without incurring an additional handshake.

Thank you for that reply. Your comments match those by others that the unlock/muting is a consequence of the HDMI handshaking and that it occurs on the Rotel and other brands of Pre-Pros and AVRs.

I have tried the back button on the player's remote. I'd say I've had success with that technique 1 out of 3 times! I can hear the slight audio click of the Rotel unlocking when i do that.

Oh well, I guess using a player's analog outputs to the Rotel's analog input will have to be the way to really avoid this.

Thanks again Kal and paradise_newf for the additional info. I am so new to the HDMI world.

P.S. I forgot to add, this still doesn't explain why the three CD's I tried in my little experiment had no clipping at all! It's odd.

This "clipping" or digital lock issue doesn't appear to effect ANY of the mass produced equipment such as Yamaha, Pioneer Elite, Denon, Marantz, etc that I have auditioned in my home.

The explanation I was given is that when a digital signal is detected, it takes a second or two for it to lock on and start playing. Certain players don't exhibit this because they are always sending something out the digital connection, thus keeping the Rotel locked to digital. It would be great if Rotel implemented a "lost lock delay" setting before it switches over to the analog inputs.
When you play a redbook CD, it will take the Rotel a moment to lock on to the new sampling frequency and un-mute. Rotel has decided that this is their design and they have been using it since the 1066 processor. As I mentioned above, they will speed up the lock on time with the optical connection. For whatever reason, it takes them a few complains before they issue a firmare update.
But the HDMI, they couldn't correct with the 1069 and 1570. So the question is, is there a different design used in the 1572?

Although I don't review equipment for a living (especially higher end products), this HDMI issue forced me to try out several mass market receivers to see whether the problems exists. Of all the mentioned brands above, auditioned over the past 3 years, none had this issue. Zero. Cary Audio and some other "boutique" brands have the same issue in my experience(s).

I'm guessing that the larger companies have bigger engineering staff and R&D initiatives, and get better deals on the latest HDMI boards due to economies of scale, thus having these bugs worked out.

I've spent countless hours working with my dealer to find a solution to this issue with Rotel. Trust me - Rotel are aware of this issue. Do a google search for Rotel and digital lock delay and take a few hours to read :-)

Thanks Paradise-

I didn't know what to call it. I will do a search for digital lock delay.

I am a little disappointed by your post that the larger companies don't have the delay issue.

This is all good information and an education!

It affects them all but to greatly varying degrees.


Whenever the format of the signal changes, the locking must be re-initiated.


Yes, it seems that this is less noticeable with the bigger companies but it is never completely eliminated as the relocking must always occur with a new signal stream.

Kal, if "less noticable" means to me, I can't hear a delay, I'm all for it
With your breadth of knowledge, do you have any suggestions why a company like Rotel, who owns its own factory in China, can't make it less noticeable over several model generations?

Do you think its a design decision or one of economies of scale?

Well, today, I set-up the CD input for analog and bypass. So no Rotel processing except volume. I am using the DAC from the Sony BDP-S550 BD player. I'm sure though the DAC isn't as good as the Rotel's or the Oppo 93 or 95.

To my ears, I couldn't really hear a difference between the Sony or the Rotel. Yesterday, I thought I was set-up with analog stereo, but I didn't use the bypass, so the Rotel was processing a processed signal from the Sony. That must have been why I didn't like the sound. With the bypass engaged now, the sound seems as good as the Rotel's DAC.

Though It does have multichannel analog output, for now, I'm just going to use the stereo. It is much nicer now without the digital lock delay. I'll try this for a while as I wait to see if Rotel has a fix. And if the Sony's DAC is sounding okay, I might hold off on the Oppo for a bit.

I would hold off on the oppo if you like the sound of the Sony. Trust your ears.

Also, make sure you have the latest firmware installed on the Rotel.
They will be able to increase the lock on time to the optical signal as I had mentioned.

Thus, you'll be able to use the Rotel dacs allowing you to run a sub. You may or may not require a sub depending on the capabilities of your main speakers.

I have no idea.

I'll take a gander. I will go with ineptitude and a lack of interest in the experience of the end user. Believe me, I think overall Rotel delivers a great product but there are certain things that they have chosen to not care about regardless of how much it interferes with their users enjoyment of their purchases and this issue seems to fall into that category.

I have to agree with you 100%. After buying their products for the past 16 years, I will never buy another processor/receiver from them again. I have no issues whatsoever with their analog equipment. Their power amps and preamps are built like tanks.
Its beyond me, how a company like this continues to ignore this problem after 3 model generations.

As you said, they're certain machines that have this same bug.

If I were to speculate, you'd find a unique electronic component common to those preamps.

Any speculation to what that part could be? It has something to do with priority being placed on looking for an analog input first.

Two things:
1. Any knock against the designers at Rotel who let this thing out of the lab knowing full well that these were issues needing to be solved should not be perceived as a knock against the support team who do their best to deal with this crap.
2. This is not an HDMI handshake issue. My Oppo uses one of the optical audio inputs and, watching a concert DVD just now, I can confirm that the picture started playing before there was sound. Yesterday, I was playing music from an iPod Touch using the USB port. The music was playing in both the main listening room and in Zone 2. Standing in the doorway between the two rooms, I could hear tracks starting in the kitchen first and then in the living room. This is a problem that effects all digital inputs in the main zone. Why brag about all of that new DSP power for converting digital to audio if you are going to release the product with a glaring error in the conversion of digital to audio? I bought this unit precisely for it's DAC abilities. Nobody buys rotel for the non-existent video processing. 2 grand is a lot of money and delivering a product with a glaring and disruptive error that effects it's biggest selling point is just rude and disrespectful.

Well, I received a replacement RSP-1572. I had an issue with the machine never going to sleep, even when it appeared to be and after trouble shooting with Mike Sheehan, he suggested I swap it out I think there must have been some kind of faulty chip set. In any case, the delay in playing digital audio is at least as present in this unit as in the old one. It occurs via HDMI, USB and optical. Also, it is only a problem in the main room. There is no problem at all in Zone 2. As I have said, I can tell this because I can stand in the doorway between Zone 1 and Zone 2, set both inputs to USB and hear the tracks start in Zone 2 first. Just in case this were a function of stereo vs. surround, I put Zone 1 in 2 channel. Same problem.

So Rotel, whatever you're doing for Zone 2, can you try that in Zone 1? And while you're at it, can you a. change the 5th band of the EQ so that it includes 500-1000 Hz and explain with a bit more precision what the different q values represent? Just saying that higher q values mean a tighter band width is not enough, unless there is an accompanying graphic, which there isn't.

Thanks for your insights and info Stephen! That's interesting about the delay not occurring in the other zone. I'll have to read the manual about the other zones, my guess is those are stereo only. I was thinking why not set up the Rotel so Zone 2 is the main one!

Hello Guys:

I have a RSP1572 and have been in communication with Mr. Sheehan at Rotel and of course have had no satisfaction with this issue. HOWEVER, I have been able to overcome the skipping issue by using a 1st generation AppleTV as my music server using optical in. It plays perfectly every time. I rip my CD's using AIFF to get highest quality and this is my workaround. I can live with the skip at the start of movies but I CANNOT live with the skip at the start of music and this plays perfectly every time with no loss of 1-2seconds of music.

Best Regards

Yeah, Zones 2-4 are stereo only and also analogue or USB digital only. So, you gain nothing using those that you don't gain by avoiding all digital processing and going analogue out from your source components. But that would defeat the whole purpose of owning this item. Rotel made a big f*ing deal about "dual 32-bit DSP," it's "high quality 24/192 DACs" and it's digital parametric EQ. They need to stick a dedicated team on this issue and figure out how to solve it with a software or firmware update. If they don't have enough engineers available then they need to hire some on a temporary basis. There is nothing Mike Sheehan can do from Boston other than be receptive and pass on our issues. But if the problem is not solved I think people will make it loud and clear that, for all it's successes, this is a must avoid product.

The only way this problem is going to be resolved is to simply stop buying the product. Obviously there must be many more people who have no issue with the 2-3 seconds of the track getting cut off.

I know Rotel have been aware of this issue for at least 4 years.
Like I had mentioned, this problem dates back to the Rotel RSP-1069 processor.
At that point in time, the B&W Support group were in contact with Rotel China for a possible fix. What did Rotel do, release 2 more models based on the same board. Economies of scale is what this is all about.

I have to also say I would have a person like Mike Sheehan run my tech support any day. He is talented, courteous and professional. I can't imagine how much patience he must be forced to exercise.

I hope nothing I said seemed contrary to this point.

I'm looking at upgrading to this unit from an Onkyo 805. The Onkyo exhibits the same behavior when using HDMI. Any time the audio codec changes, there is an audible click while the receiver confirms handshake and changes processing. The audio is muted until the handshake is confirmed. If you can imagine the beginning of a blu-ray with previews, menu, and then the movie, there are a lot of codec changes, all of which have an audible click, followed by a second or two of muting.

Not sure if the newer Onkyos have corrected this, but I don't believe the problem to be a Rotel issue.

In researching info on this pre-amp I have read about this complaint from a few people, while others seem fine with the unit. I am wondering how many people experiencing the problem are new to HDMI and just not used to the handshake lag? Or maybe I'm used to faulty equipment and there shouldn't be any lag?

Didn't have anything to do this afternoon so I took some cds and movies to the local dealer to test it out. Ended up coming home with one after opening it up and upgrading the firmware.

Wow. What a difference over the Onkyo. I didn't realize what I was missing. The detail coming from the tweeters is remarkable. Just need to dial in the bass a bit to hold me over until I get some EQ software.

I ran through a several CDs from my Oppo including a couple SACDs. There was a 2 second lag at the beginning of the first CD I tried, when I switched from a Blu-Ray in Dolby TrueHD to 2CH, but after that, not a single lag or audio mute, even at the beginning of CD's when changing them out.

Haven't seen it mentioned, but there was an addendum included with a sticker to put over the power light if it's too bright for your tastes. I'm trying it out in the pic below. Not sure if I'll keep it on or not.