or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers › bic f12 or psw505 ?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

bic f12 or psw505 ? - Page 2

post #31 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by clark17 View Post


Thanks Rob...

Is Outlaw good with music? rock, techno, dance?

BTW.. it is between Emo and Outlaw...

Outlaw is a great all arounder sub. It will perform great at music and ht and what I would buy over the emotiva
post #32 of 71
After reading the reviews on Amazon, I went with two PSW505's. I must have gotten lucky with timing because they were $179 shipped for each one a few days ago; now they are back up over $200.
post #33 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

+1

crazyrob425 is right. The F12 is not a more detailed speaker than the Polk. Get your order placed before Newegg ends the sale. Amazon will likely raise the price up.

I agree. I love my Polk PSW505, and sounds way less muddy than the bic f12. But what should I use if I want to go up to the next level, or $500+ range? Any good black friday sales coming up?
post #34 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by jagzjagz View Post


I agree. I love my Polk PSW505, and sounds way less muddy than the bic f12. But what should I use if I want to go up to the next level, or $500+ range? Any good black friday sales coming up?

outlaw LFM-1 ex it might be on sale soon.
post #35 of 71
Thread Starter 
At the end I picked up HSU STF-2. Pete was very helpful (their service is SUPERB :-)), I should have the unit in 10 days or so. I'll post my initial experience once I get to play with the unit.
post #36 of 71
Awesome! That'll be a nice sub
post #37 of 71
I have had my Bic F12 for a few months, and it's fully broken in now. I don't understand where people come from when they say this sub isn't good for music, or that it is boomy or muddy. Compared to the 505, it is more muddy? Since when? Ha. I auditioned numerous subs when I was searching for the right one for my setup, and the 505 was among the lowest ranked subs, IMO, for cleanliness and responsiveness. And did I see someone mentioned the F12 being limited to 30 Hz response? I've personally measured my F12 down just -3db at 23Hz. It absolutely cuts out at this frequency though, as any lower frequency sent to it will simply result in the 23 Hz tone.

I think people get caught up in the fact that Polk has a more widely known name, and for some reason is considered to be high quality/value products. While I can't say that the F12 outperforms other higher priced subs in it's class, it easily beats out the 505.

But, it's not wise to base your decision solely on what strangers on at AVS say. You should get a sub you're interested in, test it out, and send it back to test another. Unless you really find a sub the first try you really like, then just stick with that.
post #38 of 71
People are extrapolating from the BIC PL-200 test by Ricci regarding the frequency response of the F12, as well as going on what other BIC owners have reported. Certainly, room gain and other factors might could give you a +/- 3db of 23hz with the BICs, in much the same way that the PSW505 can (see this review which has more traditional benchmarks and in room testing comparisons).

As far as the SQ of the F12, you'll have to talk to your brethren. Other owners of the F12 and PL-200 have reported that (I don't remember where; you'll have to read the threads). Of course the SQ is all relative to which subs one is comparing the F12/PL-200.
post #39 of 71
Extrapolation isn't a very accurate way to measure anything. It's just a half calculated assumption, in the case of the F12. A quick glance over the thread by Ricci shows he took all measurements outside. I didn't bother to look through any other posts by him, but I'm assuming he's also tested the PSW505 in the same situations.

If other BIC owners are reporting bad frequency response, then it surely isn't solely the sub's limitations, as I personally have not had any such issues.

Some people are only interested in the best possible sound, no matter what the cost. Yet this is not the case for most people, as most people have personal budgets. I don't believe anyone really thinks that the F12 is the best subwoofer available, rather one of the best subwoofers for the price paid.

Does the F12 have comparable SQ to a subwoofer at four times the cost? Obviously not, but that isn't where the focus should be. The fact that you can buy the F12 at around $180 shipped, versus the 505 at around $205 shipped, puts these two subs against each other. The only advantage of the 505 over the F12 is the available power. But what good is more power if it's pushing a lower quality sound?

Again, I think people get caught up in name brands more than they should, and would prefer to feel superior with a more widely known name. Rather than truly making a decision based on a product's performance alone.
post #40 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterofBlasting View Post

I have had my Bic F12 for a few months, and it's fully broken in now. I don't understand where people come from when they say this sub isn't good for music, or that it is boomy or muddy. Compared to the 505, it is more muddy? Since when? Ha. I auditioned numerous subs when I was searching for the right one for my setup, and the 505 was among the lowest ranked subs, IMO, for cleanliness and responsiveness. And did I see someone mentioned the F12 being limited to 30 Hz response? I've personally measured my F12 down just -3db at 23Hz. It absolutely cuts out at this frequency though, as any lower frequency sent to it will simply result in the 23 Hz tone.

I think people get caught up in the fact that Polk has a more widely known name, and for some reason is considered to be high quality/value products. While I can't say that the F12 outperforms other higher priced subs in it's class, it easily beats out the 505.

But, it's not wise to base your decision solely on what strangers on at AVS say. You should get a sub you're interested in, test it out, and send it back to test another. Unless you really find a sub the first try you really like, then just stick with that.

This reviewer from Amazon has the exact opposite view. The 505 easily beats out the F12. (In his opinion- not mine)

Scroll down a little.
http://www.amazon.com/Polk-Audio-12-...owViewpoints=1

Gene
post #41 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post

This reviewer from Amazon has the exact opposite view. The 505 easily beats out the F12. (In his opinion- not mine)

Scroll down a little.
http://www.amazon.com/Polk-Audio-12-...owViewpoints=1

Gene

Yah. That's the problem with reviews. The only way people seem to take others seriously is if they see how many "posts" they have on avsforum.

End of the day, it is each individuals perception on what they will like. I auditioned both subwoofers in an identical environment and test conditions, and found the PSW505 to be *far* superior to the BIC F12. Cleaner, louder, tighter bass without sounding boomy like the BIC. I'd never go with the BIC again.
post #42 of 71
I have now tried both, duals of each of the PSW505 and Bic F12 in the exact same spots. I preferred the sound of the F12's, the PSW's were boomier and had more noticeable turbulance/port noise. I am repurchasing the F12's and selling, and or, sending the PSW's back to Amazon.

The finish is nicer on the PSW's, but that makes really no difference to me.

Just my .02
post #43 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by gnocchi View Post

I have now tried both, duals of each of the PSW505 and Bic F12 in the exact same spots. I preferred the sound of the F12's, the PSW's were boomier and had more noticeable turbulance/port noise. I am repurchasing the F12's and selling, and or, sending the PSW's back to Amazon.

The finish is nicer on the PSW's, but that makes really no difference to me.

Just my .02

Just goes to show that one NEEDS to have a listen with their own ears. All the reviews in the world can only do so much.

Everyone has their own preference(s).

Gene
post #44 of 71
This is exactly what I try to tell people, not to rely on the opinions and views of others, mine included, but to try anything before they fully commit to buying it. If someone has honestly tried both subs, and found the 505 to be better, then by all means I'm happy for them. But it's when people are quick to judge a product without giving it a shot, and simply look at product names and other unimportant variables.

I read tons of reviews about the 505 and F12 before ever deciding on which to buy. I also read about higher end subs to have a basis to compare my options to. After months of researching I decided to get both, from places with return policies of course, and I tested them both for nearly a whole month. I chose the F12, despite the lesser power and enclosure finish. I thought it sounded much better. Now after having the F12 fully break in it's only gotten better. Much smoother than when I did my comparison. I wish the return periods were closer to 5 months, ha, that way I could've really tested the 505.
post #45 of 71
That's true, but not necessarily practical and certainly not expedient. Many people coming to AVS are trying to decide between current bargains, want to make a purchase sooner rather than later, do not want to invest more hours than the subs are worth in researching them, and probably don't want to order two and pay return shipping on one of the subs at this price point (sort of negates the value of this budget range). In that case, one has to make the best evaluation one can based on testimonials and reviews. It's an educated guess, just as with buying most products one has not used.
post #46 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

That's true, but not necessarily practical and certainly not expedient. Many people coming to AVS are trying to decide between current bargains, want to make a purchase sooner rather than later, do not want to invest more hours than the subs are worth in researching them, and probably don't want to order two and pay return shipping on one of the subs at this price point (sort of negates the value of this budget range). In that case, one has to make the best evaluation one can based on testimonials and reviews. It's an educated guess, just as with buying most products one has not used.

I agree.

I understand the extra work in testing out subs before making a final decision. But I wouldn't order a sub for testing unless it had a no cost return policy. There is always a site, or store, or manufacturer who will ship to you for free, and will pay for any return shipping.

Again, I understand the value in researching online and reading into what others have to say about a product. I always read as many reviews about a product as I can. I did so when looking for a sub, and will continue to do so in the future. But you can only trust reviews to a certain extent.

If a person only has $300 for a sub and doesn't have enough available cash to order multiple subs and test them for their liking, then honest reviews are the best way to go. But more often then not, you'll find biased reviews, and not so honest discussions about products in which people have never even seen in person. How can you know who to trust?

Even in this forum, titled "bic f12 or psw505", there are unsupported claims about the F12's performance. Not many positive things about the sub on here, it's quickly thrown out as an option and higher priced subs are suggested instead. How could this benefit an outsider looking for helpful information?
post #47 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterofBlasting View Post

Even in this forum, titled "bic f12 or psw505", there are unsupported claims about the F12's performance. Not many positive things about the sub on here, it's quickly thrown out as an option and higher priced subs are suggested instead. How could this benefit an outsider looking for helpful information?

Someone has blinders on. The Bic f12 is the go to subwoofer for under $200! Generally with alot of positive things said for it at its price point. The Polk psw505 only started to get recommended over the Bic F12 when it dropped its price to under $200 when it normally hovers at $230. At $230 I would spend the extra money for Bic Pl200.

Alot of bic f12 owners when they upgrade to pl200 and HSU or other higher levels all note the boominess of the F12 and HT focus of the subwoofer. But all mention for under $200 you can't do better than the F12 new
post #48 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyrob425 View Post

Someone has blinders on. The Bic f12 is the go to subwoofer for under $200! Generally with alot of positive things said for it at its price point. The Polk psw505 only started to get recommended over the Bic F12 when it dropped its price to under $200 when it normally hovers at $230. At $230 I would spend the extra money for Bic Pl200.

Alot of bic f12 owners when they upgrade to pl200 and HSU or other higher levels all note the boominess of the F12 and HT focus of the subwoofer. But all mention for under $200 you can't do better than the F12 new

I don't have blinders on. I'm defending the F12, as I own one and chose it over the 505. That statement may be taken out of context, as I meant this specific thread. Not AVS as a whole.

In earlier posts you calimed that the F12 had in room response down to 30Hz. After asking where this information came from, someone responded by saying you extrapolated from another poster's review of the pl200. Whether this person can speak for you or not, it was the only response I was given. This isn't an accurate way to compare anything, by extrapolating and making assumptions.

I understand that the 505 is now being recommended over the F12 since it's price drop, it's currently $170 on amazon. What I don't get though, is WHY it's being recommended over the F12. I've seen reviewers compare the two, I've seen people choose based on preferences and their personal liking. But I've seen more claims of superiority rather than supported opinions or facts.

I'm not an F12 "fanboy" by any means. I do plan to upgrade my sub in the future, when I'm more financially set. I'm simply trying to question way suggestions are made.
post #49 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyrob425 View Post

Someone has blinders on. The Bic f12 is the go to subwoofer for under $200! Generally with alot of positive things said for it at its price point. The Polk psw505 only started to get recommended over the Bic F12 when it dropped its price to under $200 when it normally hovers at $230. At $230 I would spend the extra money for Bic Pl200.

I agree. The BIC F12 is often recommended as a good choice for HT for under $200. As for recommendations for the PSW505, you are right. That's been going on just a few weeks because of recent sale prices.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterofBlasting View Post

Not many positive things about the sub on here, it's quickly thrown out as an option and higher priced subs are suggested instead. How could this benefit an outsider looking for helpful information?

Feels like you are misinterpreting what tends to happen. People are often encouraged to consider more expensive subs that fit their individual needs and/or expectations better.

At the same time, there is some education going on. Around $200 is about the bottom price point for a budget sub that will contribute to the HT experience. Many people that come to ask about the $200 range don't know that an additional investment can be worth it; their sub experience is based on booming cars they drive by or cheap subs that they have heard elsewhere. After all, a $280 PL-200 will be better than a $500 sub from BestBuy, and a 12" ID sub will be better in performance than everything that BestBuy carries. I wish I had know this before buying my previous sub; I would have saved for the one I have now.
post #50 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

I agree. The BIC F12 is often recommended as a good choice for HT for under $200. As for recommendations for the PSW505, you are right. That's been going on just a few weeks because of recent sale prices.



Feels like you are misinterpreting what tends to happen. People are often encouraged to consider more expensive subs that fit their individual needs and/or expectations better.

At the same time, there is some education going on. Around $200 is about the bottom price point for a budget sub that will contribute to the HT experience. Many people that come to ask about the $200 range don't know that an additional investment can be worth it; their sub experience is based on booming cars they drive by or cheap subs that they have heard elsewhere. After all, a $280 PL-200 will be better than a $500 sub from BestBuy, and a 12" ID sub will be better in performance than everything that BestBuy carries. I wish I had know this before buying my previous sub; I would have saved for the one I have now.

Trying to educate someone on the value of a higher priced sub, without first educating about the value of the lower priced sub, isn't a very helpful way to do things. All that happens is the person asking questions considers the lower priced subs as "bad" while the more expensive subs as "good". You can't say that cost doesn't directly relate to quality, then turn around and suggest higher priced subs and simply say "this sounds less muddy".

Quick question, what was your first sub and which did you upgrade to?
post #51 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterofBlasting View Post

Trying to educate someone on the value of a higher priced sub, without first educating about the value of the lower priced sub, isn't a very helpful way to do things. All that happens is the person asking questions considers the lower priced subs as "bad" while the more expensive subs as "good". You can't say that cost doesn't directly relate to quality, then turn around and suggest higher priced subs and simply say "this sounds less muddy".

Well, whether you agree or not, this, IMHO, is sort of how things happen around here. Since trying to initiate change in an open community like this where members constantly come and go and there are no strict guidelines would be like to trying to herd cats, the best that you can do is make your own recommendations to people.
post #52 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Well, whether you agree or not, this, IMHO, is sort of how things happen around here. Since trying to initiate change in an open community like this where members constantly come and go and there are no strict guidelines would be like to trying to herd cats, the best that you can do is make your own recommendations to people.

Not trying to initiate a mass change of the way things work here on AVS. I'm simply trying to point out the flaws in the recommendations found in this particular thread. You wouldn't expect someone to go to a car dealership, with the budget and intentions of buying a Chevy Malibu, or Ford Focus, to take the salesperson's recommendation of a Corvette seriously. Especially if the salesperson doesn't seem to have ever driven either the Malibu or Focus.

I make recommendations about products all the time, and I take other's recommendations seriously when they seem to have experience with the products.
post #53 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterofBlasting View Post

Not trying to initiate a mass change of the way things work here on AVS. I'm simply trying to point out the flaws in the recommendations found in this particular thread. You wouldn't expect someone to go to a car dealership, with the budget and intentions of buying a Chevy Malibu, or Ford Focus, to take the salesperson's recommendation of a Corvette seriously. Especially if the salesperson doesn't seem to have ever driven either the Malibu or Focus.

That's not a particularly good analogy. First, this is not a car dealership. No one is selling anything here; just offering opinions. Second, if people were making Corvette type recommendations, they'd be offering Seaton Submersives or JL Fathoms. Third, when (if) you make the upgrade to a 12" ID sub, you'll understand the difference between a sub that is sold as a budget sub that doesn't perform as it should versus ones that do. Unless you have that experience, your perspective is akin to the blind leading the blind.
post #54 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

That's not a particularly good analogy. First, this is not a car dealership. No one is selling anything here; just offering opinions. Second, if people were making Corvette type recommendations, they'd be offering Seaton Submersives or JL Fathoms. Third, when (if) you make the upgrade to a 12" ID sub, you'll understand the difference between a sub that is sold as a budget sub that doesn't perform as it should versus ones that do. Unless you have that experience, your perspective is akin to the blind leading the blind.

I knew the word "salesperson" would be the base of your rebuttal. I chose that analogy because there aren't many places to go to for sound advice on buying an average car. What better place to go to then the dealership for information on two cars you're looking into? If there is a better place, then replace the word "dealership" with the name of that place, and the point remains the same.

The Malibu/Corvette ratio would be more closely related to the BIC F12/SB12Plus, or a subwoofer at roughly three or four times the price. Your Bic F12/JL Fathoms would be closer related to a Malibu/Murcielago.

I do understand the difference between a budget sub and the higher priced/higher quality subs available. I've stated that from the beginning. I compared budget subs to much better ones, to understand which budget sub would be the best for me. I'm not necessarily lacking in experience.

A budget subwoofer performs exactly as it was intended to. "Sufficient", is a word that comes to mind, when I think of the general criteron for a budget sub.

Blind leading the blind would be someone who isn't fully qualified, or experienced enough, to give an honest and accurate comparisson between two or more items. Just because you once had a budget subwoofer, and upgrade to a '12" ID sub', doesn't make you experienced with all budget subwoofers.
post #55 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterofBlasting View Post

I knew the word "salesperson" would be the base of your rebuttal. I chose that analogy because there aren't many places to go to for sound advice on buying an average car. What better place to go to then the dealership for information on two cars you're looking into? If there is a better place, then replace the word "dealership" with the name of that place, and the point remains the same.

The Malibu/Corvette ratio would be more closely related to the BIC F12/SB12Plus, or a subwoofer at roughly three or four times the price. Your Bic F12/JL Fathoms would be closer related to a Malibu/Murcielago.

I do understand the difference between a budget sub and the higher priced/higher quality subs available. I've stated that from the beginning. I compared budget subs to much better ones, to understand which budget sub would be the best for me. I'm not necessarily lacking in experience.

A budget subwoofer performs exactly as it was intended to. "Sufficient", is a word that comes to mind, when I think of the general criteron for a budget sub.

Blind leading the blind would be someone who isn't fully qualified, or experienced enough, to give an honest and accurate comparisson between two or more items. Just because you once had a budget subwoofer, and upgrade to a '12" ID sub', doesn't make you experienced with all budget subwoofers.

Well, your analogy fails anyway. Sure. If someone wants to talk about the difference between a Malibu and a Corvette, they can talk to their GM dealer, just as someone who wants to discuss the difference between two HSU subs can call them. If someone wants to discuss buying a new Malibu and a Fusion or Mustang GT, they run into the same problem that we have here. Talking to a dealership won't help.

But your analogy still is an issue because with speakers, one should expect to be able to get a fairly linear response across the rated spectrum. This is the frequency response of the BIC PL-200 (the F12 is generally accepted to be no better). And here is the distortion for it. Below 30hz, it can make "sounds" and generates subsonic effects, but does not accurately reproduce them--that's all assuming that the room gain and acoustics actually boost the lower end enough that one can feel and hear them. And this is pretty much how the low budget 12" subs act, as I'm sure you know if you have done your research.

So when people recommend the 12" ID subs, they are trying to recommend a sub that performs as a sub should to best match the full range speakers one will pair them with: a fairly flat response and low levels of distortion in the claimed frequency range (not to mention increased SQ in other ways and greater SPL). Not a 12" sub that essentially fakes the performance at that below 30hz range and may not even be able to supply a useable volume in that range. That's not the same difference as a Malibu and a Corvette. It's more like comparing the weak sound output of a Coby mp3 player to a Sony Walkman mp3 player. Ultra cheap vs. decent (but not top) performance. If you don't get that distinction, then yes. It's the blind leading the blind to object to recommendations people make for better subs beyond an OPs budget.
post #56 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Well, your analogy fails anyway. Sure. If someone wants to talk about the difference between a Malibu and a Corvette, they can talk to their GM dealer, just as someone who wants to discuss the difference between two HSU subs can call them. If someone wants to discuss buying a new Malibu and a Fusion or Mustang GT, they run into the same problem that we have here. Talking to a dealership won't help.

But your analogy still is an issue because with speakers, one should expect to be able to get a fairly linear response across the rated spectrum. This is the frequency response of the BIC PL-200 (the F12 is generally accepted to be no better). And here is the distortion for it. Below 30hz, it can make "sounds" and generates subsonic effects, but does not accurately reproduce them--that's all assuming that the room gain and acoustics actually boost the lower end enough that one can feel and hear them. And this is pretty much how the low budget 12" subs act, as I'm sure you know if you have done your research.

So when people recommend the 12" ID subs, they are trying to recommend a sub that performs as a sub should to best match the full range speakers one will pair them with: a fairly flat response and low levels of distortion in the claimed frequency range (not to mention increased SQ in other ways and greater SPL). Not a 12" sub that essentially fakes the performance at that below 30hz range and may not even be able to supply a useable volume in that range. That's not the same difference as a Malibu and a Corvette. It's more like comparing the weak sound output of a Coby mp3 player to a Sony Walkman mp3 player. Ultra cheap vs. decent (but not top) performance. If you don't get that distinction, then yes. It's the blind leading the blind to object to recommendations people make for better subs beyond an OPs budget.

I think we're spinning our wheels here. No response you can give me will satisfy the initial question at hand. Comparing a decent product with a really good(but not the best) product, should be equivalent across all platforms. Either you truly don't understand the simple analogy I gave, or you are just searching for reasons to disregard it.

I never said I had a problem with recommendations of higher priced subs. I have a problem with unsupported recommendations of higher priced subs, relative to lower priced budget subs. Showing the frequency and distortion response of the F12(pl200), while not showing the response of the higher quality subs recommended, is part of the problem.

Whether you agree or not, it is impossible for anyone to make an educated decision between two items, without being somewhat educated about the two items they're deciding between. And I didn't see any truly helpful, educating, or supported, information about the deficiencies of the subs in question to the recommended(higher priced) subs.
post #57 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterofBlasting View Post

I think we're spinning our wheels here. No response you can give me will satisfy the initial question at hand. Comparing a decent product with a really good(but not the best) product, should be equivalent across all platforms. Either you truly don't understand the simple analogy I gave, or you are just searching for reasons to disregard it.

I never said I had a problem with recommendations of higher priced subs. I have a problem with unsupported recommendations of higher priced subs, relative to lower priced budget subs. Showing the frequency and distortion response of the F12(pl200), while not showing the response of the higher quality subs recommended, is part of the problem.

Whether you agree or not, it is impossible for anyone to make an educated decision between two items, without being somewhat educated about the two items they're deciding between. And I didn't see any truly helpful, educating, or supported, information about the deficiencies of the subs in question to the recommended(higher priced) subs.

I agree. I doubt anyone will be able to give you a response you'll be satisfied with.
post #58 of 71
Just wanted to say I love my PSW505. its has too much power for my dorm atm, haven't moved it to a large room but i think it would do fine. I can't imagine what a 700 dollar sub sounds like but for 170 USD...that thing is da ****
post #59 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by clark17 View Post

At the end I picked up HSU STF-2. Pete was very helpful (their service is SUPERB :-)), I should have the unit in 10 days or so. I'll post my initial experience once I get to play with the unit.

Well?
post #60 of 71
Wait till the Polk dies at the 2 year mark like my DSW Pro 600 did. And it's a $500+ sub! Needless to say, Polk is on my "Sh@t" list right now.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers › bic f12 or psw505 ?