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The Audiophile Ratio - Page 2

post #31 of 64
I've heard a lot of live music from orchestral to folk and how well it can be reproduced varies a great deal.
post #32 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

I agree to a certain extent. We have a baby grand piano at home with a Yamaha Disklavier installed that can stream Chopin, Mozart, Broadway hits (e.g. Andrew Lloyd Weber channel, Movie Soundtrack channel, etc), Beethoven, etc. from Yamaha's server and the piano plays it. It sounds amazing coming from our piano in a way no 2 channel system cold ever rival.

Between all the styles of music and instrumentation I have reproduce in my system, the closest to a live performance I have achieved is a Solo Piano Multi Channel SACD recording on the 2L label (Mirror Canon). It is eerily close to a Steinway in my basement (to my ears anyway).
post #33 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post

Between all the styles of music and instrumentation I have reproduce in my system, the closest to a live performance I have achieved is a Solo Piano Multi Channel SACD recording on the 2L label (Mirror Canon). It is eerily close to a Steinway in my basement (to my ears anyway).

I wouldn't disagree. I know there are many excellent recording that do well on an audiophile rig such as yours. That said, I have a new appreciation for the 'live' piano I am generating in my living room. Talk about being 'right there'!
post #34 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

I wouldn't disagree. I know there are many excellent recording that do well on an audiophile rig such as yours. That said, I have a new appreciation for the 'live' piano I am generating in my living room. Talk about being 'right there'!

Sign me up when such a setup can give an exact rendition of Keith Jarrett's Koln concert Part III!
post #35 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Porsche owners or any sorts car enthusiast are no different than HT mavens (or any other hobby for that matter). It is simply taking an ordinary device or experience and taking it to excess and ideal!

Oh absolutely! I guess the Porsche ratio does not work for me. I would spend that money on audio. I am just making a point. Buy what you enjoy! Hope when you are ready, you get another one!
post #36 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

Oh absolutely! I guess the Porsche ratio does not work for me. I would spend that money on audio. I am just making a point. Buy what you enjoy! Hope when you are ready, you get another one!

I have two kids starting college in 2 years. I'm done with cars for quite a while!
post #37 of 64
Thread Starter 
Quote:


Actually I have seen many women driving Porche's. The most popular seems to be the Boxster.

Actually by sales, the Boxster is a chick's car. However at the local Porsche Octoberfest, I was really surprised at the nbr of woman that drove up in 911's.
post #38 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post


Read Darwin. It is an evolutionary thing. Man are genetically wired to attract and impress mates (and spread their genes). Without women Porsche would go out of busines in a heartbeat and we would all be driving a Hyundai.

How the female evolutionary predispostion (get impregnated by the strongest male in the tribe and keep him around during child rearing years) translates into urges to buy Gucci handbags I have not figured out yet.

You are right. My wife just wants the "male display," stuff to stop now that she has me. Comments about how I remember the first time I saw a corvette and how I would buy the orange convertible 2009, that a co-worker owns are sharply and swiftly met with, "You don't need that !!" Sometimes,I joke and say I am going to stop spending on audio to buy the corvette. That does not even phase her as she knows I'll never do that.

Let's talk about the "house ratio!" How we can justify building,heating,and furnishing a room that gets used a few TIMES a year. That room would be the so dearly loved FORMAL DINING ROOM And oh YEAH,kitchen counter tops made from ROCK?! The beloved and cherished GRANITE COUNTER TOPS. I swear my wife's eyes roll back and she has facial spasms at just the vocalization of those terms. DId I leave out STAINLESS STEEL APPLIANCES. What's the "ratio" of that stuff. Food just can't get cold in that ole white refrigerator.
post #39 of 64
Thread Starter 
When I grew up in the 60s every house had a living room, but you were not allowed anywhere near it. And in true 60s style it was all encased in plastic covers. I swear it was the biggest room in the house, but you couldn't friggin use it.

Plus I have a formal dining room, I got so sick of looking at the emptry room, went out & bought dining room set, now in case I need to have dinner for 14 I got it covered. I use it twice a freaking year.
post #40 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

I agree to a certain extent. We have a baby grand piano at home with a Yamaha Disklavier installed that can stream Chopin, Mozart, Broadway hits (e.g. Andrew Lloyd Weber channel, Movie Soundtrack channel, etc), Beethoven, etc. from Yamaha's server and the piano plays it. It sounds amazing coming from our piano in a way no 2 channel system cold ever rival.

Yep, I've got one of 'em too. If I could only keep my wife from using the sostenuto adjustment on the electronics like a volume control.

Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post

Sign me up when such a setup can give an exact rendition of Keith Jarrett's Koln concert Part III!

Actually that's possible now with the Disklavier. You only need to get Mr. Jarrett to play and record the compositions using it. You see, the Disklavier is not only a playback unit. It has the ability to record and reproduce the subtle nuance, attack, decay, and intonation of an individual performers style. Truly a marvelous machine.

A little bit of irony here as I'm writing this post from Köln, Germany this morning.
post #41 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by b curry View Post

Yep, I've got one of 'em too. If I could only keep my wife from using the sostenuto adjustment on the electronics like a volume control.

Actually that's possible now with the Disklavier. You only need to get Mr. Jarrett to play and record the compositions using it. You see, the Disklavier is not only a playback unit. It has the ability to record and reproduce the subtle nuance, attack, decay, and intonation of an individual performers style. Truly a marvelous machine.

A little bit of irony here as I'm writing this post from Köln, Germany this morning.

My dealer told me he has a Lang Lang recital for Disklavier... And he won't copy it for me!!!
post #42 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by b curry View Post

Actually that's possible now with the Disklavier. You only need to get Mr. Jarrett to play and record the compositions using it. You see, the Disklavier is not only a playback unit. It has the ability to record and reproduce the subtle nuance, attack, decay, and intonation of an individual performers style. Truly a marvelous machine.

A little bit of irony here as I'm writing this post from Köln, Germany this morning.

Mr. Jarrett is a guy that has walked out of concerts because of too much noise in the audience. He is alledgedly an unsufferable, pretentious diva. I can just imagine his indignation at a request of rerecording this piece..... This is improvised musics that can not be replicated ever, even by mr. Jarrett himself.

Unfortunately the Disklavier technology was not around when he did the concert the 70s. We are forever restricted to playback of a 96/24 recording on an audio system. The concert was recorded in the Cologne Opera House - visit this sacred ground if you have a chance....
post #43 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post

Mr. Jarrett is a guy that has walked out of concerts because of too much noise in the audience. He is alledgedly an unsufferable, pretentious diva. I can just imagine his indignation at a request of rerecording this piece..... This is improvised musics that can not be replicated ever, even by mr. Jarrett himself.

Unfortunately the Disklavier technology was not around when he did the concert the 70s. We are forever restricted to playback of a 96/24 recording on an audio system. The concert was recorded in the Cologne Opera House - visit this sacred ground if you have a chance....

Thanks, yes, I'm aware of both Mr. Jarrett's temperament and solo piano improvisations. I travel past the Oper der Stadt Köln (Cologne Opera House) on a regular basis; I'm here today as a mater of fact. I live in Michigan but my office is located between Düsseldorf and Köln.

The Köln Concert is an event and recording that almost didn't happen according to legend. Seems the Bösendorfer piano that Jarrett requested was not delivered to the Oper der Stadt Köln. A Bösendorfer with inferior characteristics was made available and Jarrett adjusted his playing to suit the piano; perhaps resulting in the success of the performance.
post #44 of 64
Thread Starter 
I bet Mr. Jarrett would just love to perform at Chastain Park in Atlanta. Sometimes the audience enjoying there dinner will yell back at the entertainer, to keep it down, ruining their dinner conversations. Not really, but the place is famous for audience noise during a performances.
post #45 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post


My dealer told me he has a Lang Lang recital for Disklavier... And he won't copy it for me!!!

Would love to have that! I have a Yamaha C3 disklavier. Even though I have a fairly decent audio system, NOTHING can compare to it for piano music! What channels do you like on disklavier radio? I'm a huge fan of Sue Downs (channel 23). I have several of her recordings. SJ
post #46 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjk3030 View Post

When I grew up in the 60s every house had a living room, but you were not allowed anywhere near it. And in true 60s style it was all encased in plastic covers. I swear it was the biggest room in the house, but you couldn't friggin use it.

Plus I have a formal dining room, I got so sick of looking at the emptry room, went out & bought dining room set, now in case I need to have dinner for 14 I got it covered. I use it twice a freaking year.

Turn it into a lego room.

That's what I'm working on

Matt
post #47 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjk3030 View Post

I bet Mr. Jarrett would just love to perform at Chastain Park in Atlanta. Sometimes the audience enjoying there dinner will yell back at the entertainer, to keep it down, ruining their dinner conversations. Not really, but the place is famous for audience noise during a performances.

Don't put up with an audience like that when you can listen to those 20t's at home.
post #48 of 64
Thread Starter 
I've been a very long term reader of Stereophile, since way back in the day when it was journal sized. A lot of its content is not really revelent to me today plus the typeface is so dammed small. However I did find this tidbit, in the most recent issue that arrived yesterday. It kinda sums up what I was getting at in trying to come up with a Audiophile quotent.

To quote Stephen Mejiras at the conclusion of a review: 'I have a rule: A good hi-fi component should make me want to listen to more music - drive me out of the office and into a record shop to explore more music. If it doesn't do that, something is very wrong. No matter how much it costs, what it looks like, or how sexy it might look to potential mates, if a component doesn't fuel my search for even more new music, it's worthless'.

As usual, the SO hit it right on the head. I might spend a ton of money on a new component, but relatively speaking I spend very little on new music.

I'd only question the 'how sexy' part. I never yet met a woman that found audio gear, esp speakers sexy in anyway shape or form. The best I've ever gotten is 'it sounds really nice'. But then I've never understood the allure of woman's purses either.
post #49 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

Don't put up with an audience like that when you can listen to those 20t's at home.

Chastain park is not a sit down be quiet type of venue - they stage rock / pop concerts. I went to see Santana there last year and had a blast. Guys next to me offered me beers - everybody having a good time including Carlos himself. A Santana listening session at home on the stereo would not come close to the experience.
post #50 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjk3030 View Post

To quote Stephen Mejiras at the conclusion of a review: 'I have a rule: A good hi-fi component should make me want to listen to more music - drive me out of the office and into a record shop to explore more music. If it doesn't do that, something is very wrong. No matter how much it costs, what it looks like, or how sexy it might look to potential mates, if a component doesn't fuel my search for even more new music, it's worthless'.

This is a very personal rule that does not apply to everyone (inlcuding me). To me a good hifi component makes me want to play the same famliar recordings over and over again, experiencing every nuance of the music and being transposed to the original event.

I could even argue the opposite - if a system sounds really good I get immersed in the music and feel no desire to switch or explore new reportoire. Instead I want to listen to whatever I am listening to start to finish.

Conversely, if I find myself listening to the system (not the music), I feel the urge to switch reportoire to hear how great this guitar, vocal, piano etc. sounds on this system. This is when something is wrong to me.
post #51 of 64
The whole cost of Hardware vs. cost of software is not a valid comparison, I think.
The cost of software is relatively fixed. Sure, you can spend hundreds on that really low serial number MoFi pressing of your favorite piece of music. But for the most part the software is going to average somewhere in the neighborhood of $15 per edition. (give or take) This means that in order to make the "ratio" anything meaningful we'd have to have literally tens of thousands of individual cds/lps. And, obviously, some of us do. My buddy, at last count, had over 30k lps.
The problem with this is that there is simply not enough time in the day/week/month/year to actually listen to a collection that big.
So it begs the question, whats the point of spending tens of thousands on material that never gets listened to?
My own music collection is probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 400 pieces. I only buy stuff that I know I will listen to often. And I listen the crap out of that stuff, easily 3-4 hours per day.

So for me, if there is any meaningful ratio it's the one comparing cost of system to total hours actually using the system. But even that has it's problems. You'd probably have to somehow figure out how to include the "cost" of the time spent. Ie. If you make $X per hour, how does time spent away from earning impact the ratio?

But in truth, due to the way equipment is priced these days, there is no way to determine ANY meaningful cost ratio. The correlation of cost and performance is woefully low. If it weren't, the 6/7 figure systems would ALWAYS unanimously be regarded as the best. And they simply are not, both subjectively and objectively.

Which leaves us with the inevitable (and huge) part of the equation that takes into account the thrill in SEEKING the ultimate sound. And this has very little to do with cost.
By way of comparison.......
I love sailing and at various times I've owned a few different boats. A small, one man, dingy is probably affordable to most people. And I have one hanging in my garage right now. In the past I've spent significantly more money to get larger and more impressive boats.
The foundational motivation is being out there on the water, feeling the wind and waves and harnessing the power of the sail. And a bigger boat with three times the sail area as the little thing hanging in my garage amplifies that thrill.
Most friends, who have never sailed, don't see the thrill in it. All they see is all the work that goes into upkeep, docking, rigging, etc. etc. They for damn sure don't understand why I would want a more expensive boat.
Sure, I love my little sailfish. But I enjoy the catamaran more! And if I had the $$$ for a 12meter yacht, you can bet your last dollar I'd have one.
Sure, part of it is the thrill of exclusivity. The thrill of owning bigger and more expensive stuff than the next guy. But most of the thrill is in the pursuit of what that money brings with it.
This thrill exists in countless forms and genre.

Just like audio. There is a real and valid enjoyment in laying down some big bucks on a new peice of equipment and then going through your listening collection and have it take on a different character than previously experienced.
In this sense, the guy with a superbly whacked "ratio" has every bit the same size collection of music as the guy with tens of thousands of CDs.
post #52 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Champ04 View Post

This means that in order to make the "ratio" anything meaningful we'd have to have literally tens of thousands of individual cds/lps. And, obviously, some of us do. My buddy, at last count, had over 30k lps.
The problem with this is that there is simply not enough time in the day/week/month/year to actually listen to a collection that big.
So it begs the question, whats the point of spending tens of thousands on material that never gets listened to?

Totally agree. A very large music collection is by no means an indication of higher level of appreciation for music (relative to better hardware). If anything, it is indicative of a collectors instinct (which has its own gratification).

Case in point, I bought the complete Beatles collection reissue box (no regret - I enjoy having it on my shelf and get gratification from just knowing I own it). However, I ONLY listen to Abbey Road and the White Album. I suspect I am not the only one indulging in this type of spending.
post #53 of 64
Thread Starter 
In my Miami days, I went from a 21 Catalina up to a 34 Tartan, at another point had a smaller Fountain power boat. But after awhile, I figured I just spent too much time screwing around with the 'boat' part instead of being out on the water. So got rid of all them & bought a windsurfer, I could just grab it, strap to the car and off I went.
post #54 of 64
Thread Starter 
Exactly. For health reasons, I have to do a lot of walking, at least 1-2 hours a day. The whole time I'm listening to my ipod (and in true audiophile insanity, the actual ipod is the cheapest part of the rig). So I'm doing a whole lotta listening, but I have the thing on shuffle 99% of the time. In my own humble opinion, I think thats the best thing that ever happend to listening. No stacks of album covers, cd cases everywhere, do decisions to make, no searching for stuff in the rack, just let the ipod do its thing.
I did sell my Wadia Ipod dock, was thinking of the Cambridge Id100, but also thinking of just getting a mini-mac, but from what I read, not sure exactly what I need, too complicated for my simple brain to figure out.

Which leads me to another question? Does your Ipod have its favorites? I swear mine does, first it was Little Feat, and now its the Neville Brothers.
post #55 of 64
Thread Starter 
I track everything in Quicken so easy to know the nbrs. I probably average $100-$200 per month overall just on CD's/SACd/Blu-Ray/DVD concerts
in spending on recorded music. So i'm thinking about $2400 per year. But I'm also contemplating upgrading to Aerial 20t, what they are like $24K? Plus already did the CBII HDMI upgrade & Marantz 9004.
post #56 of 64
Thread Starter 
FYI - Chastain is a local concert venue in Atlanta. One of the more interesting aspects is the elements of al fresco dining and an outdoor supper club for comfortable and convenient sit-down dinners in your seat or at your table. So people will go all out on the dining department. Think of it as an outdoor dining spot with a really good band?

A few years ago I happen to meet Mary Chapin-Carpenter at one of the local golden breeders. She had purchased one of her goldens from Pat & was out saying hello, etc. I just happened to be out there (not really the breeder called me, told Mary was comming by after the concert, she knew i was a big fan). So in between golden small talk, I asked her what she thought of the Chastain crowd, overall she likes it but a tough venue, very trying for an artist. There's just so much going on out in the crowd. I told from my spot sitting in the audience its really distractive for me too. For a good deal of the season, I really think its more about having a good time outdoors with some nice background music as opposed to just the artist and music. so you pick your shows and hope for the best.

So Ed, they offered you just a beer? What a bunch of peasants. Sometimes ya gotta see the spreads to believe it.

Here's some catering links.

http://proofpudding.com/chastain.php

http://www.gloriousevents.net/orderonline.html
post #57 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjk3030 View Post

FYI - Chastain is a local concert venue in Atlanta. One of the more interesting aspects is the elements of al fresco dining and an outdoor supper club for comfortable and convenient sit-down dinners in your seat or at your table. So people will go all out on the dining department. Think of it as an outdoor dining spot with a really good band?

A few years ago I happen to meet Mary Chapin-Carpenter at one of the local golden breeders. She had purchased one of her goldens from Pat & was out saying hello, etc. I just happened to be out there (not really the breeder called me, told Mary was comming by after the concert, she knew i was a big fan). So in between golden small talk, I asked her what she thought of the Chastain crowd, overall she likes it but a tough venue, very trying for an artist. There's just so much going on out in the crowd. I told from my spot sitting in the audience its really distractive for me too. For a good deal of the season, I really think its more about having a good time outdoors with some nice background music as opposed to just the artist and music. so you pick your shows and hope for the best.

So Ed, they offered you just a beer? What a bunch of peasants. Sometimes ya gotta see the spreads to believe it.

Here's some catering links.

http://proofpudding.com/chastain.php

http://www.gloriousevents.net/orderonline.html

I live within a 20 mile radius of chastain and know the venue real well. I would disagree with the "having a good time outdoors with some nice background music" assessment. Chastain typically has a stellar line up of performers, and in my experience people come down first and foremost for the music and the bring your own food and drink privilage is just a (not insignificant) bonus. It does have a unique kind of atmosphere though.
post #58 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post


Chastain park is not a sit down be quiet type of venue - they stage rock / pop concerts. I went to see Santana there last year and had a blast. Guys next to me offered me beers - everybody having a good time including Carlos himself. A Santana listening session at home on the stereo would not come close to the experience.

Oh I know.
post #59 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by SJHT View Post

Would love to have that! I have a Yamaha C3 disklavier. Even though I have a fairly decent audio system, NOTHING can compare to it for piano music! What channels do you like on disklavier radio? I'm a huge fan of Sue Downs (channel 23). I have several of her recordings. SJ

I haven't tried that channel.

I don't have any specific favorites as I do not listen to piano recordings very often. That said, I'm enjoying all the channels. I like the Broadway and Andrew Lloyd Weber channels. I'll try Sue Downs.
post #60 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjk3030 View Post

So got rid of all them & bought a windsurfer, I could just grab it, strap to the car and off I went.

So true!! Can't beat the combination of speed, maneuverability, contact with the water and low maintenance.
The only down side for me is that super thrill I get when hiked out ten feet above the water.
Otherwise I'd be right there with ya.
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