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Subwoofer crawl for dual sub setup

post #1 of 17
Thread Starter 
I will be upgrading the seating in my HT room in the coming weeks so I figured while the room layout is somewhat bare I would do the subwoofer crawl to find the best spots for my dual subs (I presently have them both on the front wall sans any placement testing).

Question is, how do I pick out two spots using the subwoofer crawl? I know what to listen for when placing one sub....does the idea change when placing two subwoofers?

Thanks.
post #2 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

I will be upgrading the seating in my HT room in the coming weeks so I figured while the room layout is somewhat bare I would do the subwoofer crawl to find the best spots for my dual subs (I presently have them both on the front wall sans any placement testing).

Question is, how do I pick out two spots using the subwoofer crawl? I know what to listen for when placing one sub....does the idea change when placing two subwoofers?

Thanks.

Do one sub at a time.
post #3 of 17
Thread Starter 
I suppose what I meant to ask is that once I do the sub crawl and find the best spot in my room (let's say front right corner), is it as simple as doing the same sub crawl for the second sub but now picking the second best spot in the room (since the first spot in the front right corner is already taken)?

Thanks
post #4 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

I suppose what I meant to ask is that once I do the sub crawl and find the best spot in my room (let's say front right corner), is it as simple as doing the same sub crawl for the second sub but now picking the second best spot in the room (since the first spot in the front right corner is already taken)?

Thanks

Yep. I would make sure both subs are gain matched and on, with the first sub in the spot you located first, and the second sub at the MLP. Then subcrawl for the next best location. To be honest I've never optimized my subs this way, so take what I say with a grain of salt.
post #5 of 17
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post


Yep. I would make sure both subs are gain matched and on, with the first sub in the spot you located first, and the second sub at the MLP. Then subcrawl for the next best location. To be honest I've never optimized my subs this way, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

That's what I thought sounded like the right order of events in my head, just wanted to get confirmation. I trust your input, but if anyone else sees a problem with this method or has a tweak to it, let me know.

Thanks
post #6 of 17
If they are both the same type of sub, I would just place one sub at the listening position then do a crawl and locate two spots in your room that sound the best. I have never done a sub crawl, I've just used my ears until I got a SMS-1 to visually see the response I was getting.
post #7 of 17
Thread Starter 
They are indeed identical subwoofers. And I will be using Audyssey XT 32 after placement.

So as long as I pick out the two best sounding spots in my room when one sub is playing from the MLP, I should be good to go?
post #8 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

They are indeed identical subwoofers. And I will be using Audyssey XT 32 after placement.

So as long as I pick out the two best sounding spots in my room when one sub is playing from the MLP, I should be good to go?

I would think so. After running Audyssey, listen to some movie tracks you are familiar with and see how it sounds. Almost always you will end up making some little adjustments afterwards. I have heard most people that use Audyssey always end up bumping up the level on the sub because Audyssey for some reason lowers it quite a bit. ( just what I have read ) I get a great response with both of my subs on the front wall between the center and the two L & R mains. I had a lot of dips and peaks but with using the Velodyne SMS-1, I have removed most of them and now have a really good response in my theater. It will take some time for you to get it right but just keep working on it.
post #9 of 17
Thread Starter 
Oh trust me, I've been tweaking and tweaking well before this new placement trial. I have had XT 32 for almost two months now and it is the greatest single upgrade I could have done. It handles dual subs like no ones business and I have never had to tweak post-calibration: subs sound fantastic just the way Audyssey sets em.

I'm mainly doing this new setup as a trial to see if there are better spots in my room for my subs since the floor space will be temporarily open for me to crawl around on like a fool and do some simple experimenting.
post #10 of 17
It always amazes when I hear ppl ask this question. What are you really listening for when you say "listen to where the bass sound best"..... What determines the bass sounding best? What should it sound like? I am sure bass sounding best differs from person to person and without measurement what really is best?? What will you be looking for when you do the sub crawl?? For where the bass is loudest??? where it's tightest??? Where its fastest???
post #11 of 17
If the subs are identical, you only need to do the sub crawl just once, the second one will be identical result. In my case id found the best location where both close each other to the best point. I didnt like how it sound putting one on the best spot and the second one on the second (not as good as the first one) spot
post #12 of 17
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimwyn View Post

It always amazes when I hear ppl ask this question. What are you really listening for when you say "listen to where the bass sound best"..... What determines the bass sounding best? What should it sound like? I am sure bass sounding best differs from person to person and without measurement what really is best?? What will you be looking for when you do the sub crawl?? For where the bass is loudest??? where it's tightest??? Where its fastest???

Sorry, I'll make it easier: replace "best" with "closest to reference sounding". That way we can weed out those who would define best as the boomiest or most anemic or any multiple other unwanted sound qualities that deviate from reference (clean bass).

Same way best (to most on here) means reference for TV picture as well.

Isn't that what we are striving for when we make/build HT rooms? Or at least most of us?
post #13 of 17
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=390-790

saves a lot of time and guess work
find locations with least dips/nulls and let Audyssey do its thing
pack it all away and enjoy
post #14 of 17
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GPBURNS View Post

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=390-790

saves a lot of time and guess work
find locations with least dips/nulls and let Audyssey do its thing
pack it all away and enjoy

I appreciate the link, but no budget for a standalone measurement system, hence the barbaric use of "sub crawl".

And when I say no budget I mean it....I went way over months ago. lol
post #15 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post


Sorry, I'll make it easier: replace "best" with "closest to reference sounding". That way we can weed out those who would define best as the boomiest or most anemic or any multiple other unwanted sound qualities that deviate from reference (clean bass).

Same way best (to most on here) means reference for TV picture as well.

Isn't that what we are striving for when we make/build HT rooms? Or at least most of us?

I understand what you mean but my question remains, without measurements how can you tell what sounds like reference?????
post #16 of 17
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimwyn View Post

I understand what you mean but my question remains, without measurements how can you tell what sounds like reference?????

Short answer: from having heard/listened to it in my room since the beginning of April.

Long answer: the first addition I ever did to my HT room was upgrading my single subwoofer to a DSP-3100 with Paradigm PBK. With PBK I was able to see a real time graph of how my subwoofer behaved in my room and the corrections that PBK did to achieve a reference curve. From this I knew that with a single subwoofer setup with the subwoofer in the front left corner, the sound coming from it was reference. I than added a second DSP-3100, but unfortunately PBK cannot EQ subs together (only individually). So individually, the second sub in the front right corner was almost reference (there was a dip around 80Hz that PBK could not fully correct to the reference curve but only by 2dB). I then added XT 32 into the loop back in September, which allowed me to cut PBK out of the equation and also allowed both subs to be EQ'ed together and work better together. Now, with my most recent subwoofer upgrades, plus my projector upgrade, and my seating upgrade, I finally have the opportunity to try different spots in the room to see if I can achieve better sound BEFORE running XT 32 (since physical adjustments before using EQ is the best route).
From this, I know what reference in the lower end sounds like, I know what to listen for. This is not some "spur of the moment" foray into subwoofer placement and I am not a newbie wondering what to listen for. I know what to listen for (without measuring gear) and I will be able to tell if the sound is better or worse when I try new positions. I merely created this thread to make sure I was doing the simple "sub crawl" method correctly for dual subs.

Interesting note: when I was running just a single sub back in April, I originally placed it in the front left corner using the sub crawl method and it wasn't until a few days later that I confirmed this was the best spot upfront using the PBK software. I was able to pick the best spot back in April when I was just starting out in this hobby using just my ears......so I have no hesitation that I can pick out the best spots using my ears again months later after becoming very familiar with my room and what reference sound should sound like. Just like, after a few years of having my TV's professionally calibrated, I can now view a TV and judge if the picture is close to reference or how far off it is (red push in skin tones, crushed blacks, picture to bright, etc). It's all learned knowledge which allows me to know what to look for in a picture and what to listen for in sound.
post #17 of 17
Thread Starter 
And since XT 32 is such a robust EQ software, I just need to be "close" to the best sounding spots in my room and XT 32 will take care of the rest. Nothing scientific or concrete needed for this tweak; either I can pick out a spot or two for my subwoofers that offer a smoother/cleaner pre-Audyssey sound, or I just keep the current spots I have (which I know already give me reference sound).

Just wanted to confirm the correct steps to take for doing the sub crawl with dual subwoofer placement. No big deal. No need to wonder how I can tell what to listen for, I just can
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