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Decision time: HSU VTF-15h (2) or CHT VS-18.1 (2) - Page 7

post #181 of 518
11/21/11 at 1:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiGBADDABOOM View Post

Yes, the infrasonics don't add to the experience in music except for when they do.

It's a high price to pay for music...movies maybe, but I'll take good midbass for music any day!
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post #182 of 518
11/21/11 at 1:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

Also, your room would need to support such low frequencies, or why bother?

I'll answer that with a quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

I have many times posted that guys get way too caught up with "open cubic volume" rather than dimension of the space. By the way some seem to calculate, you shouldn't be able to make any bass outdoors. I guarantee you that 8 SubMersive HP subs outdoors in a field will be more impressive than a single in a tiny room.

If your room isn't helping enough, bring more guns. There's no room that is incapable of reproducing those frequencies, either you've got enough displacement or you don't.

Obviously you have to shape your signal properly or you end up with what Chase offers. Lots of displacement for cheap, but rolled off so far out of the box you'll never see it.
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post #183 of 518
11/21/11 at 1:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiGBADDABOOM View Post

I'll answer that with a quote:



If your room isn't helping enough, bring more guns. There's no room that is incapable of reproducing those frequencies, either you've got enough displacement or you don't.

LOL, I believe that should be either you've got enough MONEY or you don't!
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post #184 of 518
11/21/11 at 1:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post

Remember, these were turbos with the nice AE drivers and not plain mfws.

Same headroom as the submersive, no?

No idea actually, haven't paid much attention to the MFW Turbo's. Seaton would be able to answer that.

I still wonder how much bias entered into the equation at the meet. I.e., the whole "AV321" fiasco still hangs over the words "MFW" in my mind. I know I'd stare at those boxes, and even modified, probably still want them to implode and have little Russian orphans come out of them yelling "Freedom" at the top of their lungs.
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post #185 of 518
11/21/11 at 1:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

LOL, I believe that should be either you've got enough MONEY or you don't!

Everyone's point of view for spending money on subs is different. It's easy enough to attain 10Hz aplenty as cheap as the $1.5-3K subs in that shootout, you just build it.

And then have it professionally reviewed so that you can live with yourself.
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post #186 of 518
11/21/11 at 1:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiGBADDABOOM View Post

Couldn't tell you that, I'm not familiar with everything used in those tests. But for one, Bass I Love You has a ton under 20Hz. Some 7-8Hz stuff I believe:



And an example of what you lose with something that doesn't have a flat response or filters below tune:


Interesting then that the average totaled scores favored the 20hz tune ported caps on this Bass I Love you song even with its complete inability to play those ultra low 7 and 8hz notes. 8.83 average total compared to the second highest sealed score which was indeed the SubM with 8.67 -- a difference of .16 or about 2% rounded up. (third place were the VS 18.1 subs on the Bass I Love you Track, and fourth place were the ported Turbos --- both 3rd and 4th place subs on this track incapable of playing those ultra low frequency notes).

If you believe that's close enough not to matter, I'll counter with the overall variance between the SubM and Cap scores on all tracks averaged was only 8.35 to 8.11 - a difference of .24 - or about 2% rounded down.

So a sub with a nearly perfect FR flat to 10hz (best of the day FR charts) compared to a sub with a FR not so flat (midpack) and a loss of everything below 16 or 17hz --- wasn't an obvious victory? (and headroom wasn't the issue at hand?)

Again the matter being as simple as which sub is most flat to 10hz being the most viable part of the equation doesn't bear out.



Ahhhhh I'm being drawn into this too much. It really doesn't matter. My point is -- there is more to a sub than the FR graph. The CHT are good sounding subs. That is really is all I should say. The rest is getting lost in the weeds.
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post #187 of 518
11/21/11 at 1:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiGBADDABOOM View Post

Everyone's point of view for spending money on subs is different. It's easy enough to attain 10Hz aplenty as cheap as the $1.5-3K subs in that shootout, you just build it.

And then have it professionally reviewed so that you can live with yourself.

Touche!
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post #188 of 518
11/21/11 at 1:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbc View Post

I still wonder how much bias entered into the equation at the meet. I.e., the whole "AV321" fiasco still hangs over the words "MFW" in my mind. I know I'd stare at those boxes, and even modified, probably still want them to implode and have little Russian orphans come out of them yelling "Freedom" at the top of their lungs.

Too funny....and too true!
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post #189 of 518
11/21/11 at 1:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbc View Post

No idea actually, haven't paid much attention to the MFW Turbo's. Seaton would be able to answer that.

I still wonder how much bias entered into the equation at the meet. I.e., the whole "AV321" fiasco still hangs over the words "MFW" in my mind. I know I'd stare at those boxes, and even modified, probably still want them to implode and have little Russian orphans come out of them yelling "Freedom" at the top of their lungs.

This made me laugh out loud, thank you for that! The MFW-15 turbo had plenty of headroom and it had a great driver in it.
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post #190 of 518
11/21/11 at 1:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Interesting then that the average totaled scores favored the 20hz tune ported caps on this Bass I Love you song even with its complete inability to play those ultra low 7 and 8hz notes. 8.83 average total compared to the second highest sealed score which was indeed the SubM with 8.67 -- a difference of .16 or about 2% rounded up. (third place were the VS 18.1 subs on the Bass I Love you Track, and fourth place were the ported Turbos --- both 3rd and 4th place subs on this track incapable of playing those ultra low frequency notes).

If you believe that's close enough not to matter, I'll counter with the overall variance between the SubM and Cap scores on all tracks averaged was only 8.35 to 8.11 - a difference of .24 - or about 2% rounded down.

So a sub with a nearly perfect FR flat to 10hz (best of the day FR charts) compared to a sub with a FR not so flat (midpack) and a loss of everything below 16 or 17hz --- wasn't an obvious victory? (and headroom wasn't the issue at hand?)

Again the matter being as simple as which sub is most flat to 10hz being the most viable part of the equation doesn't bear out.

You're saying headroom wasn't an issue, yet kwarny says all of the subs made noises during this demo.
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post #191 of 518
11/21/11 at 1:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Ahhhhh I'm being drawn into this too much. It really doesn't matter. My point is -- there is more to a sub than the FR graph.

I think we're on the same page Archaea, I don't disagree with your point.

However, given sufficient headroom an extra octave of extension is preferred over not.

In the end, the sub matching this description was most preferred.

Now, specifically for Archaea, the subs need a hole in them to be preferred; which is fine, that's why we call these things preferences.
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post #192 of 518
11/21/11 at 1:45pm
I just played Bass I Love You with a 4th order low pass at 15 Hz using two dual opposed subs with four of the 15" MFW-15 drivers. I am sitting two feet away and the drivers seem to be reaching full excursion on the 7-8 Hz stuff. Other than some wall resonance for a brief moment, I don't hear anything. I am also in my office at work and others come and complain if my bass is too high. Nobody has said anything, even with the drivers going crazy on the low notes. I'll have to bring my mic and measure the dB levels I'm getting. Maybe I'll have to pick up my other two dual opposed from HuskerOmaha and see if four are noticable.
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post #193 of 518
11/21/11 at 1:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiGBADDABOOM View Post

You're saying headroom wasn't an issue, yet kwarny says all of the subs made noises during this demo.

That is why I said it may just be the song. These are not loud noises but it is still audible.
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post #194 of 518
11/21/11 at 1:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbc View Post


no idea actually, haven't paid much attention to the mfw turbo's. Seaton would be able to answer that.

I still wonder how much bias entered into the equation at the meet. I.e., the whole "av321" fiasco still hangs over the words "mfw" in my mind. I know i'd stare at those boxes, and even modified, probably still want them to implode and have little russian orphans come out of them yelling "freedom" at the top of their lungs.

lol!
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post #195 of 518
11/21/11 at 1:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiGBADDABOOM View Post

You're saying headroom wasn't an issue, yet kwarny says all of the subs made noises during this demo.

I specifically wrote in my notes that I didn't hear any bad noises from the Turbos on this scene, and I know for a fact after playing that song multiple times with the Caps they do not make any bad noises at those volume levels and MUCH higher than we listened to at the meet.

I wrote in my notes that the submersive actually seemed to be missing the lowest note on that demo (IMO), the CHT VS18.1s were bordering their limits it seemed (when the sound starts changing just a bit), and the 18.2 actually seemed to find their limit just a bit on that song.

No I know not every sub hit its limits on that song, cause the caps sure didn't. As to the rest - those are my opinions and observations from listening that day.

It all ends up being subjective at some level.
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post #196 of 518
11/21/11 at 1:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Interesting then that the average totaled scores favored the 20hz tune ported caps on this Bass I Love you song even with its complete inability to play those ultra low 7 and 8hz notes. 8.83 average total compared to the second highest sealed score which was indeed the SubM with 8.67 -- a difference of .16 or about 2% rounded up. (third place were the VS 18.1 subs on the Bass I Love you Track, and fourth place were the ported Turbos --- both 3rd and 4th place subs on this track incapable of playing those ultra low frequency notes).

If you believe that's close enough not to matter, I'll counter with the overall variance between the SubM and Cap scores on all tracks averaged was only 8.35 to 8.11 - a difference of .24 - or about 2% rounded down.

So a sub with a nearly perfect FR flat to 10hz (best of the day FR charts) compared to a sub with a FR not so flat (midpack) and a loss of everything below 16 or 17hz --- wasn't an obvious victory? (and headroom wasn't the issue at hand?)

Again the matter being as simple as which sub is most flat to 10hz being the most viable part of the equation doesn't bear out.



Ahhhhh I'm being drawn into this too much. It really doesn't matter. My point is -- there is more to a sub than the FR graph. The CHT are good sounding subs. That is really is all I should say. The rest is getting lost in the weeds.

In reality, it hasn't been established that any of the subs in attendance could deliver <20 Hz at reference level playback, much less 7 Hz.

With the notch in response at around 12 Hz that looks to extend to well below that working against all comers I just don't see that much was experienced below 20 Hz.

The SM is naturally down quite a bit by 10 Hz and I'm not convinced it has much to give by 7 Hz at all, even in the best of situations.

Although the SM offered the stab at <20 Hz of the subs that showed up, I certainly wouldn't make any judgement about <20 Hz playback by what was experienced at this G2G.

Bosso
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post #197 of 518
11/21/11 at 2:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

In reality, it hasn't been established that any of the subs in attendance could deliver <20 Hz at reference level playback, much less 7 Hz.

With the notch in response at around 12 Hz that looks to extend to well below that working against all comers I just don't see that much was experienced below 20 Hz.

The SM is naturally down quite a bit by 10 Hz and I'm not convinced it has much to give by 7 Hz at all, even in the best of situations.

Although the SM offered the stab at <20 Hz of the subs that showed up, I certainly wouldn't make any judgement about <20 Hz playback by what was experienced at this G2G.

Bosso

Which is why I'm advocating at least pairs for all subs at the KC blind meet in January. I'd like to hear the subs in full form, full capability - with the headroom to play the ULF on a clip or two and see if it changes blind scoring. I'd even sacrifice a bit of volume if required -- though not too much because I think capability is important too at these sub's price level.
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post #198 of 518
11/21/11 at 2:12pm
The easy test would be playback at reference using any of the tracks used at the GTG, with a sub that has full bandwidth reproduction headroom at this level, using a 20Hz HPF inline while listeners are blind as to whether it's in place or not.

Then it's a simple matter of preference or couldn't tell the difference.

I know bosso's done this with guests, but I don't believe it's been done at a GTG type setting.
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post #199 of 518
11/21/11 at 2:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiGBADDABOOM View Post

The easy test would be playback at reference using any of the tracks used at the GTG, with a sub that has full bandwidth reproduction headroom at this level, using a 20Hz HPF inline while listeners are blind as to whether it's in place or not.

Then it's a simple matter of preference or couldn't tell the difference.

I know bosso's done this with guests, but I don't believe it's been done at a GTG type setting.

That does work well for subs that produce the full bandwidth to check for "preference" or "couldn't tell the difference." However, I find it easier to tell differences with subs by using a low pass filter and just listening to the sub. You can then detect the distortion some subs have when playing low bass at high levels and it isn't masked by the higher frequencies. Of course then one can ask that if it is masked, does it really make a difference?
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post #200 of 518
11/21/11 at 2:49pm
Thread Starter 
Half the stuff you guys are saying I dont even understand but it makes for some good reading
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post #201 of 518
11/21/11 at 2:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyravr View Post

Half the stuff you guys are saying I dont even understand but it makes for some good reading

Only half is purdy good.......

Btw Jim is a great host...
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post #202 of 518
11/21/11 at 3:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiGBADDABOOM View Post

The easy test would be playback at reference using any of the tracks used at the GTG, with a sub that has full bandwidth reproduction headroom at this level, using a 20Hz HPF inline while listeners are blind as to whether it's in place or not.

Then it's a simple matter of preference or couldn't tell the difference.

I know bosso's done this with guests, but I don't believe it's been done at a GTG type setting.

What exactly does it mean to play back music tracks "at reference?" "Reference levels" is a term that specifically relates to cinema sountracks (105 db peaks on all channels except for 115 db peaks on LFE). With 2ch music, there is no LFE. With 2ch music, is reference 105db or is it 115db?
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post #203 of 518
11/21/11 at 3:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyravr View Post

Half the stuff you guys are saying I dont even understand but it makes for some good reading


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post #204 of 518
11/21/11 at 4:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

Wow, nice way to to muddy the waters and jumble the message! Lets set this straight- I am "hung up on performance" when it comes to choosing a subwoofer, and I require Pro reviews and measurements to help separate fact from hype. I do not, at this time, require 5hz performance, nor would my open theater support such response, so spending huge sums on a subwoofer capable of that would be wasted effort. My in room response is not entirely subjective, I do use my SMS-1 to shape the response to suit my requirements. I could care less about charts and graphs in anyone elses room, they would be irrelevant for me. Standardized testing, however, is VERY relevant, as people who make claims about their products and charge high prices for them really need to have their claims verified. Come on Ricci, test every sub out there.....!

How about we pay attention to the thread starter, for a change?
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post #205 of 518
11/21/11 at 5:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tesseract67 View Post

How about we pay attention to the thread starter, for a change?

Sorry, last time I looked you were not a moderator here.... but what the hell, hey OP, any luck getting to audition the VTF-15?
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post #206 of 518
11/21/11 at 5:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

Sorry, last time I looked you were not a moderator here.... maybe you can go find some other forum if you want to call the shots?

No problem, rave on. I see you edited your post.

Allow me take exception with the lack of science in your post below.


Quote:
Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there.........

Film soundtracks that contain sub 20hz frequencies can sometimes add to the tactile experience, but I doubt that those same frequencies would add to music - except the cannon in the 1812 Overture! Also, your room would need to support such low frequencies, or why bother? I know one guy who has a "bass bunker" HT, he could probably get to 10hz by getting multiples of this:

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/art...oofer?page=0,0
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post #207 of 518
11/21/11 at 5:44pm
I don't care what happens in this thread, I just hope the OP updates on his auditions. I always wanted to try a HSU sub back when the cylinder was out. I am a sucker for the round form!
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post #208 of 518
11/21/11 at 5:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I don't care what happens in this thread, I just hope the OP updates on his auditions.

Same here. I've heard the CHT system he auditioned, so I'm curious to hear his impression of how the HSU set-up compares.
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post #209 of 518
11/21/11 at 5:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

Same here. I've heard the CHT system he auditioned, so I'm curious to hear his impression of how the HSU set-up compares.

It will be a different room so who knows. Either way it does not matter what he likes as I just like to hear the fun people have which this hobby is about!
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post #210 of 518
11/21/11 at 5:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

It will be a different room so who knows.

True about the room, but since the OP's opinion will be his opinion - and not a professional review with charts and graphs - I'm not too worried about that.

Quote:


Either way it does not matter what he likes as I just like to hear the fun people have which this hobby is about!

I agree.
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