Official JVC X30 / RS45 owner's thread! - Page 6

Today I got a call from my dealer that he has 3 units(RS45).. I passed up the chance to the next guy in the line.. I want to get initial impressions from the more experienced users.. This is my second PJ, but there is 5 yrs gap since i had the last one..

How is the outlook with those who ordered with AVS?

I've noticed these are popping up as in stock..hope mine shows up soon!

This is not quite right. The lens memory works fine, only when you will save there is a small error, like 1/8 inch, only that, and will can easIly fix it. When you recall the lens memory every thing will be fine.

very good points Coder...thank you.

The biggest priority for me is Black levels and Shadow detail...need as flat an IRE @6500 as possible. Ergo the reason I've been on the JVC bandwagon for the longest.

Having said that, my original question still stands: I'm not sure if the jump in price from a RS40 to an RS45 will be worth it for someone who has neither.

going by this, I would have said my first RS40 was 'soft' and not a 'sharp' projector. There are going to be variances (sometimes quite noticeable) between these copies as you'll soon find out when some of the new owners start reporting in. My replacement RS50 (by complete chance) could cut a finger on the sharpness, dead perfect edge to edge top to bottom.

My particular HW30 is quite sharp and I don't like soft images either. The HW30 can hold it's own with the JVC on my 142" which is fair bit larger than most screens I see in the forum. I watched 'Fearless' and 'Mortal Combat: Legacy' last night on the Sony and the contrast / black level is better than what it looks like on paper. If not, it would have been gone months ago.

There is still the very possible chance that the lamp will dim in under 300 hours like mine and others have, so I am cautious to use the JVC these days, mainly for dark BD SCI-FI. The Sony I can burn around the clock.

Out of all the issues with last years models, my #1 interest is to know that the lamp issues are resolved. I can deal with the CMS issues with a mini3D, but I don't want to drop 40% of the lumens in a few hundred hours. We just aren't going to know for while.

@ssabipro
That is a hard call, but can you really get the RS-40 much cheaper than a new RS-45, if so then yah, hard call, but I'd tend to want the new warranty and a fresh lamp. That said, you might want to wait for more data if you can afford to wait.

The below isn't directed at Zombie, as he has the RS-50 and not the RS-45, but this is generally what I have found to be true in these forums...

There are variances in convergence for sure, but the Sony's lens is said to have a focus uniformity issue, this means a default slight loss in sharpness even before the variance.

Couple more points about Sony hw30 vs. JVC RS-45

The RS-45 still should calibrate decent, and at closest throw the BEST MODE is around 1000 lumens!

For 3D, yes the Sony wins, but I think people are being BIAS'd against the JVC's 2D simply because they prefer the Sony in 3D and they want to believe their projector performs better in every category. For Sports, I'll give the benefit to the Sony here as well, but for movies, I don't believe it...
I have seen this happen over and over and over and over again in this forums. As a matter of fact, the number of times I've been disappointed by people in these forums making claims about a projector doing so many things better than another I can't even count on two hands. There is very little UN-BIASED info, it is there, but you really have to try hard to find it.

It is not a dig at anyone, I used to do the same thing when comparing projectors, you have to go into a certain state of mind to become un-bias'd, it's almost like acting, if you don't get your mindset right when comparing projectors, you will instantly favor one or the other and see things that don't exist, we've all done it before, even Art has done it. It's hard not to. I think what most people are seeing in POP on the Sony vs. the JVC is simply processing issues and calibration and sometimes brightness (when JVC lamp dimmed), not ANSI contrast. A DLP with much higher ANSI and a sharper picture is believable to have a little more POP in bright scenes, but for now I don't believe it when speaking of the Sony hw30 vs. the JVC. Do I believe the JVC OTB might look worse than the Sony OTB, yah I do, but after a calibration I don't think the Sony will beat the JVC in POP, I think the reverse will occur, because every time for me, the sharper projector wins in POP, I'm not taking the 1 in 10 bet that ANSI contrast matters going from 300:1 to 450:1.

When I had less experience with the 3 techs (DLP, LCD, LCOS), I had owned a Sony vw70, at first I thought it looked sharp like a DLP, but after you watch it for a while, your eyes start to see the difference, part of the issue is you need to watch the right type of content, and an untrained eye can think anything looks as good as anything else in certain content. Even at first I knew something bothered me about the older Sony, but it took me a little while to figure out that even though the TEXT was super-sharp, the convergence correction was overly-softening the VIDEO. The hw30 is better, but my point isn't that, it's just that a lot of people will say a lot of things about the JVC vs. the Sony, but you really need someone that doesn't have favoritism to look at both. So far I haven't seen anyone make the comparison of the RS-40 to the Sony hw30 or RS-45, so I cannot say for sure, but I'm leaning towards the JVC is going to be the better projector for movies.

Whenever I trust non-pro's (and sometimes even pro reviewers as well are guilty of it), and someone has a projector with a really good feature that does something really well, the projector tends to get over-hyped in other areas and it often turns out to be nothing more than a bunch of BS. I've seen this every time I buy and analyze a projector, turns out no matter how good a projector is, there are still flaws and I can still find one in the same price range that beats it in at least a couple categories, even if it loses in others, hence the tradeoffs.

How are you going to fix it? Sony my be able to with a firmware update.
If it works for you, that's fine. I really don't want to be jumping into the menu each time I change from 2.35 to 1.78. The Sony goes further out of whack each time you change formats.
I said this feature is important to me, I don't think I overreacted at all.

Good poster Coderguy.

Another thing we may tend to overlook is that every setup has a different throw, screen size/gain, room colour, ambient light that can all influence the final result.

For example I have a very long throw setup, which should mean my picture is dim, but I have a 1.5 gain screen: Not enough to have hot spot issues or any texture, so I have quite a sharp picture likely due to the lack of zoom. I have a (removable) black cloth 'tent' that tripled my ANSI contrast and thus allows me to run a higher gamma which tends to add depth to brighter scenes (aka 'pop' when combined with a little extra fL by opening the iris a notch or two).

It's quite possible I get more contrast and have a sharper image than the more expensive model of my current projector if the owner has a short throw, lower gain screen and light walls for example. Such an owner may not be happy with the results of their more expensive projector and question how I could possibly be with a lesser model. Even compared in the same room personal preferences will influence the decision too as you said.

RE the RS45 not having a CMS, if you follow the link I posted further back, you'll see that it manages a pretty good gamut without one. I guess that's what was meant.

Right, I was speaking in general when people were making comparisons from the RS-50/RS-60 to the Sony hw30 or vw95 about brightness, and then trying to apply that comparison against the RS-45.

Even if people do not use the CMS on the 50/60 and leave the primaries/secondaries alone, well the RS-45 is so much brighter than last year's RS-50 or RS-60 it's not a good comparison. The RS-45 looks to be 35% to 40% brighter than last year's RS-50, and based on CINE4's comments, not absolutely sure if he meant before enabling the CMS, but either way, that is a huge difference in brightness.

For people buying the newer RS-55/RS-65, well it looks like JVC increased the brightness and maybe fixed the CMS, so that is a benefit for those people.

For people buying the RS-45, it looks to be one of the brightest, if not the brightest JVC projector ever made. So even if it experiences some bulb dimming, you have some lee-way as long as it does not explode, but we don't know exactly how much just yet.

With my HP 2.4 gain screen, I'm not too worried about Brightness, at least not unless the lamp completely craps out.

it is a bit of a dig at Sony if you keep stating over and over that the HW30 is 'soft' unless you're commenting about your own HW30. I often A/B The HW30 and RS50, stacked and know well the virtues and flaws of each model. I had to try the competition firsthand to see what the fuss is all about regarding Sony motion flow and FI in 3D.

The 2D IQ was very good on the 2 JVC's I owned, but imo, the Sony can handle certain things better and that doesn't automatically mean the 2D is sub-par. We both know that none of these projectors are flawless in any particular area which is why I have a growing army of front projectors.

The lamp issues are big deal for some people who want to use it more than a movie a weekend. it's going to take months to know if the issues have been resolved. At the same time, Sony then turns the UHP market upside down with a Philips branded lamp that is 1/2 the price of the JVC. Competition is a good thing and I hope JVC is aware of their lamp prices (with no reported issues yet). As a JVC elitist, I had little interest in the Sony projectors until the HW30 came around and used it first hand, so folks should keep an open mind.

btw, regarding professional reviews - some don't even calibrate their own equipment or have the projectors stacked for direct A/B comparision. I am not judging a projector with a set of screenshots or a visual memory from a projector reviewed 3 months ago. When someone like Petri comes along with direct A/B, firsthand visual comparison, I'm listening.

So is the fix to save it 'wrong'?

You can use the zoom one or two touch more, then save again and will be in right place, if not, you can use mask for adjust the image. The focus is not impaired , i am waiting for more information for more members, i think this was a very big misunderstanding.

Actually, since you mentioned it, this is exactly what I did. I noticed my 16:9 position always recalled to a spot about 1/8" or so too low. I saved it the same amount higher the first time (Which appears wrong) and then every time I recall it now it is in the right spot. Seems to me that should be firmware fixable if it is uniform across all the projectors, but since it seems to be "off" the same direction and amount every time, this little workaround will work just fine for me since I don't need to mess with it anymore.

Soft is relative and is probably a harsher word than I could pick, but the slight focus uniformity issue is there according to several calibrators. I can only go by what the consensus tells me, and that is that the RS-45 on average is sharper than the Sony hw30 by a bit, but yes, if the convergence is off enough, it won't matter most likely, but I'm playing the odds game. I think you said that the RS-50 was sharper than the Sony hw30, and most people have said that the RS-40's and RS-50's were about the same on average, but there were a few with some bad convergence. I do realize it's partly a game of Russian Roulette for convergence, and I have lost this game many times myself, but I'm hoping to win this year...

I am not questioning your ability to compare, but your RS-50's brightness is not in the same league as the RS-45's brightness. So I keep seeing posts about this, but it's not the same thing on an RS-45, or even for a RS-55/65 as these projectors are all much brighter than your RS-50.

So the first thing to do would be to take the brightness issue completely out of the comparison equation, as it's not relevant to us. For some of us, the second thing to do is to take 3D out of it, because many of us are not buying it to get the absolute cleanest 3D. Much like you, I will probably be trying out a DLP for 3D, so I can skip over the Sony here. For sports, I prefer DLP anyhow, but I'm not a sports fan, although might watch a little bit.

Now what's left, better FI in 24fps content and better sports and better lamps?

It just depends what people want out of their projectors I suppose, as with everything, trade-offs.

So they are really landing. Outstanding. Mike with AVS had a hunch they were shipping -- looks like he was right. I've stopped watching my old Panny altogether and I have a stack of Blu Rays waiting.

cmreddy, thanks for the info. Very good news. I was having visions of late January.

Coder - let's not turn this into a S. vs. J thread for the benefit of the new owners.

People reading your posts are going to assume you've had valuable seat time with the HW30 as they come across as authoritative. I can't argue a point if your frame of reference isn't the same as mine (direct A/B).

ps. if your lamp only lasts 300 hours, the badgering is going to be relentless.

Sorry if I came off that way, I really didn't mean to.
I was really saying, ok so the Sony is better at 3D, Sports, lamps, etc...

Right, but not all of us are in it for that.

Then I just reminded you that the 45/55/65 is not the same brightness as the RS-50, because there are many many posts in this forum making people think the Sony is much brighter than the JVC's, but that is not true unless the lamp DIMS into oblivion. So I think it is our duty to clarify that point because this has been misrepresented across the forums, regardless of how long the lamps last or not, people have gotten the wrong idea about the JVC's brightness this year in general, and it has been increased, and for the 55/65 by a huge margin.

The RS50/RS60 are not valid to compare in brightness with the RS45/55/65 regardless of whether you enable the CMS or not. And, we are talking about a different projector, the RS-45 is not the RS-50, and like you said, every unit has different convergence, so I'm not sure an A/B is valid for a sharpness comparison given that we need an average like a calibrator that has seen multiple units. I do not have any time with the Sony hw30 or RS-45, I am going by what people from AVS have told me, and other places I trust when it comes to the sharpness, I personally don't know the exact difference.

There has been quite of a bit of anti-JVC sentiment, so just trying to even the playing field, that's what I do, I am the devil's advocate and he pays me a good salary (actually these days even the Devil doesn't pay well, but hopefully I'll get a new contract next year).

I think what he was trying to say, is that it doesn't go further out of whack each time. If you save your positions, the position that the projector recalls to is just barely off from the position originally saved. It doesn't get worse each time you do it, and we're talking about like 1/8" of an inch. This can be corrected by saving the position "off" in the opposite way, which then recalls it to the right place. I do agree that because of how it seems to be off by about the same amount each time that it should be correctable by firmware, but if each unit isn't the same I don't know how they could do that. It was a simple fix once I recorded how far it was off by and adjusted for it. But this is a JVC owners thread, so cheers!

In another thread, Mark at AVS had second hand information that the first shipments by air would go out late November. But those would only be a tiny number. It sounds like it may be the second shipment that fills the bulk of the initial orders, which would ship via ocean container. So we may realistically still be looking at late December or early January, but who knows.

Thanks. I'm finding a few mentions of units in stock, mostly on the west coast. Just have to wait it out. Mine will probably arrive the day before I leave the country for two weeks. Oh well.

I did a little survey with one of the the nationwide JVC distributors and the initial shipment they received was scattered to a few of their locations around the county, just like last year. A scattering in the west coast, a few on the east coast, a few in the south east. No large quantities anywhere and many of their locations none. No dealer would be able to get many from the first shipment. They said large quantities coming soon. I have great faith in our friends at JVC being able to satisfy their large annual initial demand much quicker than last year and things are looking good.

In the realm of academic science what you describe consumes much of our attention when designing good experiments. We use controls in experiments and blind/double-blind techniques in trials to avoid the types of bias you describe. It is a proven scientific fact that your (and mine and everyone else's) bias is impossible to avoid and is the reason why even the most objective scientists rely on the scientific method to avoid interjecting bias into conclusions.

You are correct to say that only A/B comparisons between projectors in the same environment is the ONLY way to draw a reliable distinction between two projectors. Anecdotal evidence is notoriously unreliable and often plain wrong.... That's not to say that we can't average reviews and conclusions from professional reviewers and draw generalized conclusions that are likely to have a high degree of reliability.

Of course this is all partially negated by the fact that projector preference is so subjective. We can make un-biased calculations of brightness, lamp life, and other characteristics of projectors but we can't measure which projector YOU will like best.

Having said all that I think the reason I enjoy the AVS forum is that it generates the kind of open discussion that effectively strikes the balance between hard science and subjective preference. This is just what is needed when making a completely subjective buying decision about different pieces of equipment.

Good points coderguy

[quote=zombie10k;21270982]it is a bit of a dig at Sony if you keep stating over and over that the HW30 is 'soft' unless you're commenting about your own HW30. I often A/B The HW30 and RS50, stacked and know well the virtues and flaws of each model. I had to try the competition firsthand to see what the fuss is all about regarding Sony motion flow and FI in 3D.

The 30s I have had we're both sharper than the two RS40s I had. Not by a lot but it was evident upon test patterns. Of course that sharpness decreased slightly the further you got away from the center of the screen.

@Joe
Yah, I couldn't tell you for sure, but the calibrators I have heard from (and I have called small dealer/installer combo-shops too when I was trying to find live comparisons of the hw30 and Panny 7000), they have generally said the JVC's are on average a little sharper. AVS has said this, several people at CEDIA, and a couple calibrators in these forums have said the JVC's tend to be a tad sharper. From past year's reviews, most of the reviewers have found JVC's on average to be a tad sharper than the lower end Sonys. So they could be wrong, but what else can we go by?

Projector choices are completely subjective.
There seems to be a hard-push by the Sony guys to think they are doing a huge favor to everyone by saving them from the JVC lamp issue. Now don't get me wrong, I do understand that it can be a very serious issue for the real heavy users, but for the most part JVC has taken care of the real early failures with free replacements.

I figure the average person buying a JVC is a little more hard-core than say the average person buying a $1000 projector, but I'm not sure, just a guess. So going by that, let's say with work and kids and all the other stuff that happens in life, 3 hours a day might be a good average of what a heavy user is likely to use their projector, or maybe 1000 - 1500 hours per year. Of course there are exceptions and some of us may approach 2000 hours in a year or more, but that's pretty rare I think. So far, JVC has replaced most lamps that have failed under 1000 hours, so for the first year I think (I hope) many of you should be fine.

I even have other projectors to watch TV on so I can just keep the JVC for those movies and stuff.

I am not attacking the Sony, I have recommended the Sony over the JVC several times for certain people, but I do think there are some of us the JVC just fits better.

Just because the lamps might fail early and have a problem (or maybe it's been fixed, we don't know yet), I don't think that is a reason for everyone to avoid the JVC. If you want to use the JVC 24/7 as a TV, then yah, but you don't have to limit it to weekends either. The toxic thing if they explode does sound a bit gross to clean up, but hopefully that won't happen this year.

Just judging by the new Lumens numbers, JVC made some improvements, so maybe the lamp issue was looked into as well.

I guess I'm not the norm. I've put on 94 hours on my recent Epson 8700 purchase and it won't be any different with the JVC. So, I'm taking a leap of faith hoping the JVC fixed this. If not, I figure I can get my money back because I know there are people that only use it a few hours a week.

I use mine quite often too, so I am right there hoping the lamp issue is fixed, but we'll see...

Kelvin - Natural mode looks pretty good. Do you know which meter RickyJ using?

I have to come and hang out on the AV forums, between you, Jon & Manni, it's calibration discussion nirvana!

I didn't see any lumen numbers posted on that review or did I miss it?

IMO - Pirates was average at best for 3D. You really need to get a copy of Avatar, The Hole, Sammy's Adventure or even Thor to make any proper/fair judgement (Avatar is still King of the Home Tree IMO!).



Yeah but you and I both know that has to be the worst one out today bro!