Official JVC X30 / RS45 owner's thread! - Page 51

Thanks CG. It's not clear to me people are being specific when they say "motion problems". Let me state what I think is required of any $3000-ish projector

1) It shall display progressive 1080p (including 24 FPS), 720p, and 480p content after decoding and scaling. Any sense of "poor motion" shall not be introduced by the projector but rather must have been inherent in the source encoded stream. For example, 1080p/24 may look jerky to you but that's not a fault of the projector.

2) It shall display interlaced 1080i, 480i content after decoding, deinterlacing (with 3:2 pulldown as needed), and scaling. Again, any sense of "poor motion" shall not be introduced by the projector but rather must have been inherent in the source encoded stream

If a projector satisfies my requirements, it means that "poor motion" can only be caused by "interpolation algorithms" such as FI or whatever.

So... Does anyone believe the JVC doesn't satisfy #1 and #2?

... Altan

@Motion
The JVC and LCOS in general with VERY fast moving scenes may exhibit some BLUR. How well the pulldown and FI addresses blur is a long debatable topic beyond my knowledge, but I'm in the camp that DLP with the faster pixel response is better than trying to work around blur for things like Sports and Gaming.

Judder on the other hand, is only there for 24p content for movies if you do not enable CMD 3. Since TV is not generally shown at 24p, you don't have Judder (some TV actually is 24p I think, like Game of Thrones). Sports doesn't have judder, but has motion blur.

Judder is naturally there, and as far as I know, no movie theater uses any FI (could be wrong, but I doubt it), so if you are watching 24p pulldown without FI, then the worst case scenario is that the JVC does motion as good as any commercial movie theater, and at best (if you like CMD 3 mode) it actually looks smoother with less judder than the theaters (but adds a bit of that video look).

For Sports and gaming it gets more complicated.


Good news on the 3D, I haven't tried it yet, I have the glasses here but I didn't order any 3D movies.
There seems to be some disagreements about whether 3D is better, no idea myself.

Still too blown away by the 2D to go to the store and buy a 3D one yet.

Glasses are unopened.

i'm glad to hear everyone is enjoying the new models. I'm anxious to see the MPC on the 55 compared the 40 and 50 I had. My screen is pretty big @ 142" and I sit closer than I should. hopefully I'll see the same improvement that the folks in the 55 thread are seeing.

I am still crossing my fingers that the lamps are legitimately improved this round as it would benefit last years owners as well.

There is unit to unit variation from reports such as zombies and Josephs. If people are seeing better, worse or the same ghosting I think is mainly due to unit to unit variation. Ghosting on my 45 seems the exact same as my 40 so far. I have not tried 120hz content yet.

Both of these issues worry me a little. I have my current PJ (a DLP) connected to a backup regulated pwr supply (tripplite) and that is plugged into a power strip which I turn off when the PJ is off (along with the tripplite).

I do this mainly 'cos the tripplite is a power hog, it gets very warm and no doubt is reducing the batter life (even when plugged in but not 'on' the tripplite is VERY warm!). No need to have it 'on' all the time when it only feeds my PJ and I only fire that up maybe 2-3x a week for a few hrs.

But, this effectively does the same thing as unplugging the pwr cord from the PJ (after pwr down of course), and it would seem an oversight that the JVC's can't handle that effectivly

I made the fanboy comment.... Not particularly addressed to anyone. In addition, I kind of like the "fanboy" concept. It implies loyalty if not sometimes irrational loyalty. I know the 95 is in a different price point than the 45. However, when one tries to evaluate a new fairly expensive purchase. I look at overall competency. How long I will own it? what it costs? Importantly how other people perceive, review an utilize the projector. From what I gather, the JVC is very, very good. The 49 was also as well reviewed; however bulb issues and ghosting with 3D became bigger issues, not to mention a supposedly radio silent response by JVC on the bad bulb syndrome.

I actually enjoy compelling spirited defense of a purchase. It is good for your personal psyche and good for you spousal relationship. What gets me a bit more emotional is when anyone compares not yet released products and not yet even observed products and makes definitive "It's better because I say so statements" this is not directed at anyone in particular.

I bought the 95 on recommendations and reviews of others knowing full well that my history with products is different than others and my needs/wants differ as well.

So.... I know I am not an owner but from what I gather, people who might want this new JVC have a desire to see the following.

1). Potentially best of class contrast, especially native.
2). Solid build quality.
3). Bright but not really any brighter than the other latest LCOS projectors.
4). Solid but perhaps only marginally better 3D
5). High level of control and customization, including lens and zoom control.
6). Very good price point.

Questionable's include motion control, possible bad bulb early fade-out, not as good as Epson or Sony 95 service policies, past failure of JVC to fess up to problems, and my issue is "heck I just have a bias to Sony".

I get the loyalty thing from having an abysmal ownership experience with a Dwin Transvision DLP unit. It was one flaming pile of something!!!

The Sony 30 and 95 have what appear to be not so great as the JVC contrast, wicked good lenses, far superior motion control, similar light levels (less for the 95, I guess).

So, I guess I just love second guessing my own purchase but on all these threads, what I find helpful is great subjective banter on content viewing and great advice on how to set up a projector. I love discussions about throw distance, screens, calibration, the works. What I find hard to swallow is discussion that state "X brand projector is so much better than Y brand projector (which isn't even available yet).

I have a friend who owns the RS20 he will not even consider upgrading to anything else before he tries a latest JVC. I get that, heck.... I think we all get and appreciate that. I am a troller here and will go back to my hide mode but I like helpful observations and am by no means an expert. Many may laugh at my multi year loyalty to the Ruby. I get that too.

Mark, are you using the Xpand 103's for this test? Do you also have the RF MV3D/Optoma glasses? I'd be curious to see which one you preferred. I haven't seen anyone post that has the MV3D setup.

I am selling the 103's and will give the MV3D's a shot with the 55.

Sorry if my earlier response didn't give an exact answer, but just gave a general response. What you are saying is generally true, and in all cases is true about Judder.

However, motion blur is much trickier, there are all kinds of processing things going on that can add to or detract from blur more so than from Judder (which is more straight forward). So it's debatable on how bad or how much blur exists in movies or TV on the JVC. There is some, but it doesn't bother me, I am too enamored by the contrast to worry about it.

Also motion blur is not equal in all scenes between different projectors because of varying processing (even if the panel speed was exactly the same). For instance, a noisier image could appear to have more motion blur, or an image that is not calibrated correctly could be too bright and cause perceptual differences as well. So every factor combines to contribute or detract from motion blur. The JVC is not the strongest when it comes to motion blur, but neither is any LCOS or LCD, and for that matter even if the JVC is a bit weaker in this area, I am personally not concerned. Again, there are cheap DLP's floating around for sports, gaming, or bright action movies if the JVC motion did bother you. Occasionally you can even get a cheap 1080p DLP under $700 refurbished or on the used market. Buying DLP's refurb'd is safer than LCOS or LCD sort of, since you don't have to worry about convergence.

Many of us have given up on trying to find one projector that does everything perfect, heck Zombie owns like 200 projectors and is still buying new ones.

I watched the final Harry Potter (not crazy about this movie other than the special effects, it was ok the first time, but sick of it).

I will say the dark scenes were amazing on the JVC though, the JVC brings new life to an otherwise dull experience.

Back to motion
I should also state that for me anyways, motion blur is really only noticeable for me in closeups of
fast moving action or when there is a central focused point (like a baseball flying through the air real fast).

I don't tend to notice it on zoomed out shots, even if there are explosions or fast movement going on. So to me it's not an issue.

The ambient and reflected light levels in a showroom may wash out the black details as well.

Well, I got my 45 day before yesterday, while I was out of town of course, and set it up last night. I did not have a LOT of time last night to play with it, but this morning I spent a couple of hours setting up and running through some settings and fiddling with everything until I got the image where I wanted it.

This is my first projector and I must say I am totally blown away. I have a 104" screen and I am coming from a 52" higher end Samsung LED TV. The image on this projector is every bit as good as my TV was in most cases. In some cases, such as fast moving close ups of fight scenes and such, I can see what people are saying about the motion. To be honest though I am not sure if that is really blur or if the screen is just big enough that I am having a hard time taking it all in. On the other hand, every LCD/LED TV I have ever had suffered from the problem of backlight bleed through along the edges, in the corners especially. This thing is gorgeous from one diagonal to the other. I am very very pleased.

I am planning to sit and watch a couple of movies end to end tomorrow and will report back again once I have done that, but so far everything I have seen is simply beautiful.

Ok I'm pretty sure the RS45 is going to be my new projector.. I'm hearing it is the best movie projector out there and since 2D will be 85% of my movie watching I don't think I can go wrong.
Just a couple of questions on accessories. What glasses do,I want for 17ft LNG theater room with rows at 10ft and 17 ft. . Projector is mounted at 17 ft as well. I want to make sure all viewers will get the signal. I did run a cat 6 cable from the projector mount to the front of the screen. Can I use this to mount the emitter at the front and does this help the signal ?

One last thing, I'm hearing this projector isn't the best for sports.. I need my football ! So what is best 2nd projector for sports only and under $1500??

Thanks

I would at least try it with sports to see if the motion "issues" bother you, but the epson 8350, benq w1200, viewsonic 8200, or optoma hd33 should all work nicely assuming placement is not an issue.

It turns out that the glasses I was working with were not holding a charge. Also when I was doing a manual sync I was doing the 6 second press after the auto completed rather than during the sync. Sadly I had to figure that out on my own as I spent about 45 minutes on the phone with Xpand and asked them specific questions regarding this and they couldn't answer. My last mistake with setting up 3D as a first time (with no research) was that I had my Panasonic 310 BD player set to Checkerboard and the JVC doesn't support it. Also when I picked Side by Side it still didn't work on the JVC with 3D set to Auto until I manually selected Side by Side.

My biggest issue with the HW30 would be the black levels. I took a sample of my Dalite HP 2.4 material and it was noticeably lighter than the black levels on my RS2 clone and the RS45 has a little better blacks than the RS2 does. And that would be noticeable on more than just an all black screen.

As far as motion goes I think some are making the JVC out to be worse than it really is. I think it's all going to come down to expectations. I used CMD 3 on the JVC and after several movies I noticed very little artifacts and it smoothed out a bit of the picture but judder still exists. With the limited time I spent with the Sony's the FI was great and motion was very fluid but at least for my taste I can live with some judder over having to live with the lesser black levels. YMMV


I completely agree with you. I watched HTTYD in 3D tonight and what bothers me the most in 3D is the lack of FI in 3D. Judder in 3D looks much worse than judder in 2D and I think this is a huge plus for the Sony in 3D. I would take mild ghosting with FI over zero ghosting w/o FI any day of the week but again that just my opinion.

Now I just need to figure out why I'm getting some stair stepping on edges from my Panasonic 310 BD player in 3D.

The 2D PQ of the 45 is VERY good IMO and it's certainly a nice upgrade over my RS2 clone.

I had the RS40 and I used a Marantz 8600VP, which was a high end DLP projector, and I used the Marantz for sports and HDTV. I preferred the RS40 for sports over it though, but it kept my hours down. Now, I have RS55 and an Acer H5360. I don't know if its my screen but both looks almost identical with my Dish Network. I even have the RS55 upscaled to 1080p so I can upscale it to 4k with the eshift. Also, the Acer does better with motion and its only $400. I think my screen has a lot to do with the good picture. I had a lot of cheaper screens and this is my best screen so far, a SI Gamma 4K screen. The screens I had are Vapex, Elite, Carada, and Da Lite. Even though there are better screens out there, the SI screen really does well and enhances the picture. Never really paid too much attention when they say screen and screen size matter as much as the projector, but now I do. Also, it will has long with it lamp rated at 5000 hours in eco mode and the bulbs are cheap.

Have you reduced sharpness and detail for 3D? I found with the 40 that I had to reduce both to 0 to completely eliminate what looks like aliasing on hard edges. The 45 is plenty sharp with both reduced to 0.

I've watched only 2D tonight, and I'm really, really impressed. Black level is phenomenal, shadow detail is outstanding (I raised black level to +1). Everything is tack sharp now that the projector is in "Front" mode and not inverted. And contrast is even better than on my RS40. It's so good, I had one OMG moment after another as I scanned through some difficult films (dark scenes) - Underworld, U-571, Avatar's night scenes. "Cars" looks gorgeous. I decided not to watch any 3D tonight, so tomorrow it's back to 3D clips to see what some other 3D films look like in terms of ghosting.

The FI in 3D is nice, it's makes it more comfortable to watch 3D for extended periods of time.

@ Joseph - maybe as the lamp dims a bit, it will take the edge off the effect you are seeing? I think your seeing details that the HP brings out due to the brighter image. I'll let you know what I see on the 55 to compare some notes. I have the projectors dead center on the HP for max gain.

Great. I'll look forward to it. Over in the RS55 thread, they're talking about how much more detailed MPC (pseudo 4K) makes the image look. Jeez, what must that look like? The way I have the 45 set up right now is definitely bright, in its makeshift position. I'm at -15 iris and still squinting in the bright scenes.

Yah Contrast is incredible, I had to take down my black curtains in my HT room to do some minor remodeling so I had to watch temporarily with white walls. Still looks pretty good even with white walls.

I think my CA or convergence is drifting depending on the temperature of the room and projector a little or maybe just the warm-up time. I'm not sure about this though, but if it is, it's a real minor drift anyhow, that might explain why I am seeing varying amounts.

I don't recall what I had sharpness on but I turned it down from the default and I'm pretty sure that detail was at 0. I went through a few discs today and The Lion King was the worst offender which I also noticed ghosting on. Didn't notice the aliasing much in the quick demo of POTC 4. I'll test it out again tomorrow and I might even try the PS3 to see if the Panasonic BD player could be the culprit.

Get some of this>



And set a boundary line around 4ft from your screen so that you can't cross it.

Should help with your convergence OCD issues

Just a look at the various sizes of Xpand 104 coming soon

http://www.avforums.com/forums/3d-tv...glasses-5.html

As an ex CRT guy I can assure you that LCoS projection is VERY easy on the eyes and non fatiguing, much more so than CRT as there is no line scanning or flicker to contend with, motion is also very good and less jittery even without FI.

The JVC's have beautiful color and dont need a CMS, after calibrating grey scale and gamma I dont see how you will be disappointed coming from CRT.
I have a old Sony with 5000 hours on the lamp and color still looks great without a CMS.

Cinema film cameras run low shutter speeds so any motion is blurred and fast motion is blurred a lot. Just pause during a panning shot and see how terrible the blur is, any blur introduced by the projector is tinny in comparison.

You used to be critical of motion on JVC projectors and with older generation models that concern was justified, however how that you own a JVC you can see that motion is not a problem at all with the current generation light engine (now in its second year). Film looks like film but with a lot less jitter than a film projector.
For those who want film to look like video the JVC's are not for them.

I do not have the HTTYD 3D (I really hate those dealer-only thing...), but I turned on 2D-3D conversion, and it is actually quite good! The depth is nice, and I do not see any ghosting. I do completely agree that your point in lack of FI in 3D. Personally, in 2D, I do not turn on CMD, because I do not like the soap-opera effect... even if it is almost artifect free. However, in 3D, it will certainly help the judder which is quite apparent in a lot of cases... Well, I am pretty sure next gen. of JVC will have that much improved. Another year!

Zombie.. I have the RS55 with the MV3D+Optoma. I do not have the Xpand 103 or JVC glasses. I really like those (actually, thanks for your suggestion in the Sony thread!). Since I do not have JVC glasses to compare (and they are too expensive. Almost $900 for 4 glass + emitter), I cannot tell if JVC/Xpand will be brighter or not though.

I believe you, but I can see a little blur in gaming, it's not a big deal though to be honest.
Your right though, I don't think I see any blur in movies that's not already there, looks great.
Not once yet have I thought, oh that darn JVC motion, it's been fine.


Was trying to get a comparison photo at its optimal point, that's why I was being OCD now, the convergence is fine though.

I think what you are calling judder here most people would call stutter.



The most likely reason why you are seeing judder with 24p material is because you are playing it at 60hz from your HTPC (or bluray player, but I think you said you were using an HTPC). This is why the 24p mode was invented: to get rid of the judder you get with 24p material when you watch it at 60p.

Set the playback on your HTPC to 23p (to get 23.976hz) and provided you graphics driver and software player works as it should, you'll see absolutely no judder when playing 24p blurays. You can even use ANYDVDHD to switch the refresh rate automatically depending on the content of the disc you load (50p for PAL, 60P for NTSC, 24P for bluray).

This is OT here, but there shouldn't be ANY judder when playing 24p material at 24p (23.976hz) on the JVC. If you have a bluray player, try to play a bluray at 24p and you'll see: no judder.

This is not to say that there are no motion issues with the JVC, but judder with 24p material isn't one of them IMO.