Official JVC X30 / RS45 owner's thread! - Page 99

I bought my RS-45 from Mike at AV Science. I've had it about three weeks. It is calibrated via Lumagen Mini and Chromapure Auto Cal. I installed the most recent software. PQ is fantastic and I am a happy camper but getting concerned a disaster is lurking just around the corner.

I have had two episodes where the projector locked up while running. There was no indication anything was wrong until I tried to power down. All controls either on the remote or the unit itself were non-functional. I had to disconnect the power cord.

Last night it took three attempts to start it. Each time something timed out shutting off the lamp before the D-ILA logo appeared and the warning led's started blinking. I had to disconnect and reconnect the power cord each time. On the third try the projector started normally.

Has anyone else experienced anything like this? I hope I don't have a lemon.

Dennis;

Have you installed the f/w update for your PJ yet?

It lists as one of the details "Fixed projector inoperative under certain conditions."
____
Axel

You may as well pack it up and ship it back to avs or to the jvc repair center.
My unit did the same thing. Something was replaced in the unit. I'm not sure what it was. It is in transit back too me now. I've seen others post the same issue. Apparently a defective part was installed in some of these unit.

The update has nothing to do with the issue, by the way.

Thanks Joesyah. I was afraid someone would say send to JVC repair center. I'll see what happens tonight.

Dang! That's bad news I just picked up Dark Souls.

Sorry to give you the bad news Dennis. I went through the same steps as you.
The unit operated perfectly for over a month. Out of no where the remote nor key pad was responsive. The issues got worse as the unit wouldn't change from 60hz to 24hz. Small white lines began to show up on the images as well.

JVC's repair center turn around is quite good. They seem to be turning these units around with in a week of receiving them. Being you live much closer to the repair center than I. You'd be without yours for maybe a week and a half.

Being you're also a designer of projectors, you could probably fix the issue yourself. I'm kidding..but I wouldn't put it pass you.

I waited until over 100 hours of use before bringing out my ISF-certified tech. We discussed it beforehand and he felt that you really need 100 hours for things to stabilize, making the calibration of value. So if you calibrated when it was new, then noticed 'drift' at the 40-50 hour mark, that would seem normal.

And, boy oh boy did professional calibration make a difference! My buddy spent 3 hours with the projector and the improvement was immediately noticeable (yep, the wife noted it right off the bat).

I would wait until 250 hours on this projector to pay for a pro-calibration, as it continues to drift quite a bit.

I think the lag issues are understated for gaming on projectors. I run an XBox 360 and swapped in the JVC RS-45 for an old 720p Epson projector that apparently has 20msec delay. So I know there is no undue delay in my equipment chain.

Now I'm not an elite gamer. The last time I dared venture online to Xbox Live was whilst playing Fight Night. I got my ass knocked out in 30 seconds flat by some 14yo punk who then went on to make disparaging comments about my presumed sexuality.

I play FPS like MW3 and Halo on the easiest "Don't hit my mommy" difficulty levels and primarily buy them so I can watch the cut scenes and enjoy the "story."

In short I'm not a competitive gamer.

But the 80msec delay makes for a choppy, less enjoyable gaming experience. Its very very difficult to line up the cross hairs even in single player. And I'm noticing the lag despite not needing every last millisecond to even the playing field against 13yo gerbils hyped up on Red Bull. All technical measurements aside the gaming experience is not as enjoyable with high lag. This is not being fussy and is a far more noticeable problem than things like correct gamma calibration etc etc.

For my next projector upgrade lag time will be right up there with adequate brightness as two of the top priorities.

I had the 3-D problem and so I went to Roomie Remote and manage all my equipment IP now. Here is the rub, I also have an MX-5000 by URC that can do IP, but I cannot find anyone that can program it for the JVC projector over the lan due to the PJLink handshake needed. If I could get 1 command figured out I could do it. I found 1 on a post for DirecTV and have it fully running now. Seems the so-called experts really all want to add more hardware, which the MX-5000 does not need or want to do IR, which my business partner and I can do (new to the business).. Anyone got IP for JVC running on a URC remote? BTW, it is SAD how far behind their equipment list is compared to the 5000 a iOS app lready has. And they added my JVC RS in about 6 hours and put me in the beta program. I wanted to send the URC back, they would not take it, want it IP programmed, no one knows how. Pretty not happy with it.

Hmm I always want to throw my remote at the TV but the thought of replacing a remote or Samsung D8000 make me think 2x...but if I throw it at a fabric screen it should just bounce back

You couldn't be more right. I test-drove the Epson 5010 and the JVC RS45 and gaming, to me, was literally unplaybable. Rayman Origins on the XBOX 360, a fairly "casual" platform game as far as accuracy of jumps goes (especially by comparison to Mario games) was near unplayably laggy, and Battlefield 3/Modern Warfare 3 became not playable, at all. I simply could not aim fast enough and making slight adjustments to aim became a chore. In short, I was incredibly frustrated.

This is, in part, one of the reasons I went with the Panasonic PT-AE7000U. Of course, that projector (my copy especially) has other issues.

There's no perfect projector, but if you're even slightly serious about gaming, avoid the JVC/Epson.

I couldn't disagree with you more. That assumed latency you talk about is the same for everyone with a wireless controller. However, for the sake of argument we say it takes 15 ms for the wireless XBOX controller to transmit the button information to the console, there's STILL whatever latency remaining in the display device - whatever it is - to process!

So if my display device has 0ms input lag response, and my controller has 15ms input lag to the console, that's 15ms.

However, if my display device has 80ms input lag response, and my controller has the same 15ms input lag to the console, that's 95ms.

Either way, the display device adds the same amount of input lag, no matter what the controller -> console lag might be.

PC gaming is a real issue. But console gaming is a much, much bigger issue because more people play console games than PC games, be it on a TV or a projector.

What I meant is that many console games are written with, to use a technical term "slop". They are not so critical in timing because there are multiple delay factors in a typical home environment. A head shot is given even if you are slightly off allowing for the fact the character may have moved in reality but not to that persons view. My Panasonic TV seems to have about 40ms of lag in it. Many modern TVs have latencies of between 20-60ms. A console gamer can never play a PC one in multi-player environment, not just because of the mouse vs controller, but because a PC monitor is typically faster response than almost any modern TV. Even with a mouse connected to an Xbox, the console player would lose if both had equal skill level.

The fact is, I have completed so many console games and done well in multiplayer, that it really has not obviously hindered me playing on the JVC. That being said, I have to be sharper in "my" response on the controller than when I play on the Panasonic TV because more of that "slop" is used up.

Also, it is very weird using a PC for gaming on the JVC because you don't feel the mouse and image are coordinated due to the delay. That same sensation doesn't happen with a console controller.

This is exactly why everyone needs to try it out for themselves. My experience (which I explained in my last post or so) is just the opposite of yours on my 40/45. I have never noticed or had any issues with lag on my 360/PS3.

What is the lag on the Panny7000 by the way? I am guessing ~40ms? If so, there is a 40ms difference between the 7000 and the JVCs........that is 1/25 of a second! I just dont see how this could be close to significant for the average/non competitive gamer.........

This whole lag thing is being blown WAY out of proportion IMHO for the average console gamer. To call the JVC unplayable with the 360/PS3 is a stretch to say the least. Just my opinion and I know some of you dont agree, but I just dont understand how ~1/25 of a second can change something from playable to "unplayable".

I understand the mouse vs controller issue, since a mouse is far more accurate in its "range of motion" (if one can even call it that - but you know what I mean). Controllers are more abstract. That said, you're not alone in being able to play games on the JVC. A lot of people won't notice/care. That said, "I" cannot play on it. In fact, I'd not bother having my consoles in the projector room if I had to own an RS45. Harsh? Perhaps, but this sort of thing bothers some more than others, and to "me" gaming on anything above ~30ms is a total waste of time. I don't enjoy it, and I feel too "proactive" in my movements in e.g. first-person-shooters. I like my gaming to be organic, not constantly have to pre-empt myself.

Of course, let me reiterate this is very subjective. Like most things.

Let me get this straight.............30ms is OK, but if it went to lets say 50ms, it is a waste of time? You are talking about 1/50 of a second difference..........can that even be noticed in real world viewing? Just trying to put this in perspective.........we are talking fractions of a second.

First, I do believe 50ms is 1/20 of a second, if my math serves correct. And yes, 50ms is outside my realm of comfort, for sure! Yes, I can notice it. Maybe some can and maybe some can't. I know I can, and I know plenty others who can, too.

e.g. Try playing Hot Shots Golf on the PS3 on the JVC/Epson (heck, even on the Panasonic). This game involves having to stop a moving bar at a specific place by pressing the X button. If you're off by any amount it hooks/slices the ball. It's unplayable on ALL those projectors if you go by eye alone. The Panasonic is manageable, since the lag is vey small. The JVC/Epson you literally have to press X WELL before the intended mark of the input lag. Now what you CAN do on these projectors is "learn" where you need to press the X button so you can mitigate the issue, but what's the fun in that? In an ideal world you have a bar where you need to stop the ball, and you press the X button when the bar is at the right point.

Anyway, I have a 2009 iMac 27", with an Atlona HD-720 connected to it, with a second XBOX 360/PS3 hooked up to it. It offers 0.01ms input lag according to Atlona, and you can tell. Even by comparison to the excellent gaming capabilities of the Panasonic PT-AE7000U, the Atlona +iMac combo blows it away. Hot Shots PS3 is what you see is what you get - perfect! Of course, I'm playing games on a 27" screen instead of a 100" screen, at that point. Boo!

Subjectivity is everything here. 50+ms is a waste of time to me, yes. Playing twitch shooters at 50+ms is plain heresy!

Yeah, I would never use a vacuum cleaner on a PJ. There's the potential for static electricity (though I'm not sure the odds), plus you can partially dislodge a lot of the dust/dirt and 100% of that does not get sucked up, so that when you turn on the PJ and the fans suck 'in', it can suck some dirt in then or later on.

Strangely enough filters can filter better when dirty, assuming most of the dirt is on the outside of the filter. The dirt acts as another filter layer. Airflow is reduced, hence the reason you change dirty filters on a car, etc.

If it were me (I don't have a PJ with a filter), I would just replace the filter with a new filter.

I was talking the difference between 30ms (playable IYO) to 50ms (unplayable IYO) which is a difference of 20ms which is 1/50 (!) of a second.........I dont see how 1/50 of a second difference takes something from playable to unplayable in all due respect.

Apparently I have "learned" how to deal with lag then since I own Hot Shots Golf Out of Bounds and have played the hell out of it (and am quite good) on my RS40. We can just agree to disagree because to me there is no issue.

I have plenty of complaints with the 40/45, but lag has never been one of them. Not saying they should not improve it for those who are sensitive to this, but when you actually break it down, we are talking a fraction of a second difference between all these projectors which I cant see being even noticeable in real world console playing to most people.

On a different topic, is anyone else noticing your image will shift from one power down to power up? My image will commonly be slightly shifted (1/4-1/2" approx) in one of the 4 directions from one power down to the next power up on the 45. It is not consistent either as sometimes it will be up, sometimes down, sometimes left, sometimes right (my 1.78 actually stays put in the horizontal it seems, but the vertical is usually slightly out of whack either up or down). My 40 did not do this and I am thinking this is a side effect of the new lens memory function since I have talked to one 55 owner and another 45 owner who have both noticed the same thing. I would be curious for others to keep an eye on this for a while and let me know what you find. Thanks!

I see what you're saying. But by your logic then if it's 50ms, why not 60ms? After all that's 1/100 second differences? And then why not 80ms? Because that's only 1/50 second difference again!

Like I said, we all have different tolerances to these things. If you came and checked out my Panasonic or my iMac setup, you'd go back to your JVC and say to yourself - "holy crap!" Until you know what you're missing you, you're not missing it.

And sure, maybe the lag isn't noticeable to "most people," but is that an argument? I don't consider many of us on here to be "most people." We talk about DI, and color shift, and moire and EE and DNR among other things.

This is part of the reason people should take projector reviews with a healthy, healthy grain of salt, because so many of the issues I have with projectors today aren't even addressed, and to me these issues are GLARING!

The further you go out, of course the better the chance of being noticeable. But 1/50 of a second which would be the difference from 30ms to 50ms...........I just dont see how this could be an issue, sorry.

I understand what you are saying and you are right in a sense. We are on AVS forum and this is what we do here. I am as guilty as anyone since I obsess over certain things as well What some people on here would call unnoticeable or minor as far as ghosting/flicker goes, I would consider severe!

I guess what I would like to know at this point though is at what fraction of a second does the difference become even noticeable to the average person? I know there is going to be some variance due to individual sensitivities, but I would love to see some sort of study on this just out of curiosity.

T'is a good question. I don't even know. When I met my wife she couldn't have cared less about this sort of thing, but now she really, really notices, too. I suppose, like with anything, a trained eye is a trained eye.

I'm guessing the "average person" might not be bothered up to 100ms? Maybe?

I think the bottom line here is that this is the JVC RS45 thread, and that anyone considering buying one for gaming should be aware that there are plenty of people out there who cant tolerate 80ms of lag for gaming.

It blows my mind that JVC couldnt include some kind of a game mode like other manufactures do; when were dropping $3000 on a display device.

I know when the new projectors come out next year I'll be looking to sell my 45 and (hopefully) upgrade to the new JVC if they have reduced the lag, otherwise I'll be looking elsewhere.

Meanwhile it isnt so bad, because the '45's inky blacks blow me away everytime I pop in a movie that it makes it all worth it!

Who knows.........it would be an interesting study.

The only thing that is nearly unplayable to me as far as gaming and the JVC goes is when we get into 3d games. The ghosting in general is horrendous IMO. I have been playing the God of War Origins collection the past week and the 3d is excellent, EXCEPT for the ghosting on my 45 Because of the ghosting, I have now abandoned 3d altogether on these 2 games and just stick to 2d on the 45. Bummer.........I am already looking forward to the day when I can revisit not only these games, but quite a few others that have turned me off in 3d due to ghosting alone on a projector that can provide truly ghost free game play which it seems only DLP is capable of at this time unfortunately.

3D gaming is broken, honestly. The only game I can play on my Panasonic PT-AE7000U is Super Stardust HD on the PS3, which looks and runs fabulously in 3D. Uncharted 3? Ghastly. Motorstorm Apocalypse? My eyes bleed. I have no idea how people play these games in 3D, to be honest. I suspect we'll be waiting till the next generation of game consoles for 3D games to work properly.

Then again, some people love to play these titles in 3D. I cannot stand the ghosting and aliasing and general sense of yuck.

Subjectively I was really surprised by the impact of the input lag on the enjoyment of gaming. I don't post much but as way of background I'm a fairly casual viewer who just wants to enjoy the picture/game and I'm not fussy.

I almost never see the technical flaws this forum delights in going over. I've never seen the RBE even on a 2x speed colour wheel data projector. I confess to having never seen a ghost in 3D on the RS45 though the flicker is bothersome. SDE is something that happens when I walk into the door and have to buy a new one. I fail miserably at the How well do "you" see color test over in the $20,000+ projectors for columbian drug lords forum.

I've briefly thought about calibrating the grey scale and gamma levels of my JVC, got sleepy after reading the 1st paragraph of the DIY calibration thread, and went back to sitting on my tail and watching movies.

In short I used to be the sorta guy who strolled into the local electronics store and thought the supersaturated, super-bright, really thin TV was the display nirvana.

I'm 35yo and if I'm honest the reflexes just aren't what they used to be. I'm one of those disosaurs that buys the FPS shooters for the awesome cut scenes and "story" as I think the emotional investment in the A-grade games (ME1,2 and 3!) nowadays is superior to most action movies.

But, honestly the gaming lag is one of the most noticeable flaws I've seen in any projector. And I've had some of the cheapest, nastiest projectors ever made. Its probably the ONLY technical flaw I've ever picked up in a projector (Re: SDE/RBE/Ghosting/Ovesaturation) and it is trully impacting on my enjoyment of gaming (about 30% of my usage).

The RS-45 is great for 2D and its very enjoyable for 3D.

But for me gaming the lag is a deal breaker. I wish I had got the Sony HW30. I could've easily lived with the slightly inferior blacks my crappy eyes never notice anyway.

I suspect the 50msec difference between the JVC and other projectors (80msec vs 30msec lag) is just enough to tip me over the edge and make the whole experience feel less organic. Sniping at long range which is usually a pleasure on huge 100+ inch screens (I can finally see that head with my myopic eyes) is a pain in the ass. I just cannot line up the cross hairs - presumably because of the 3-5 frame delay (FPS usually run at 60FPS).

The sports games seem to be less problematic. But for FPS shooters its not so much the opponet has a 60msec drop on you and will shoot first but the difficulty in lining up targets with a 1/10th second delay (average) between input and firing. The cross hairs can drift a long long way in 1/10th of a second.

Anyway this is my honest and subjective experience and for anyone who uses their projector for both gaming and movies and TV I suggest you trial the projector with a FPS shooter you know well. I am trully amazed the slight increase in delay (50msec) made such a drastic difference to my single player FPS experience ......

but at least the cut scenes look damn amazing when I finally get to them!

Just received my unit back from the repair center. Part no. replaced was PC0210303U9 (Proc.PWB Assy)

JVCs turn around is good. However the way they handle the merchandise is TERRIBLE!
My unit returned with one foot missing and the lens cover not installed. I had to dig around the bottom of the box to find the missing pieces. There are also visible hairline scratches on the cover. Where as there weren't any when I shipped this unit to them.
I'll measure the lumen output tonight. I don't even think they changed the lamp.However the timer was reset.
I love the image this unit throws, but doubt I'll ever buy a JVC again!
I called the repair center and chewed out who ever answered the phone. I'm extremely disappointed in the service as a whole.

Need less to say I'M PISSED!!!

I'll measure tonight and probably contact them tomorrow. So they can pick this MOFO up and send me another!

Are they going to do anything for you?

The woman who answered the phone didn't seem to give a rat's ass.
She said I can ship it back too them, so they can evaluate it. So they can decide if another unit is warranted. Keep in mind this unit was only a month old with roughly 200 hours on the lamp.

I believe the lamp should have been replaced. Since I had to unplug the unit several times in order to turn it off. We all know what happens to lamps when they aren't allowed to cool down properly.

Whom ever worked on my unit took the projector cover and carelessly laid it around.