Decent Sub, Very Low Price... - Page 3

I'm quite serious.

The very fact you state the PL-200 is smoother/flatter between 15-22hz and so it is the sub that is lower sort of sums up the whole realm of your knowledge level with subwoofers. Which is to say you are still quite green.

15-22hz is WELL below the port tune of both subs, and frankly is immaterial. As the sub system's SPL continues to climb the frequencies in that range will not climb in equity. Even if we were talking about sealed subs here, and that little difference was to be genuinely discussed the dB level at which Capricorn Kid measured do not allow for a proper comparison. That little left most tail of the graph can be heavily influenced by the noise floor of Capricorn's house. If the AC kicked on during that measurement, or a truck drove by outside either could easily account for a little dB or two difference in the high 60dB range. If you've ever used live measuring equipment you'll note that that little tail flips around quite a bit until you raise the SPL levels well above the noise floor in the room. But as I mentioned a moment ago this point is immaterial because it is below the port tune of either sub, and isn't something you can boost, or EQ, or even want to have louder because frequencies produced below port tune are loaded with distortion on a ported subwoofer.

The only reason the PL200 might be louder is that it has a wicked natural peak at 50hz and so becomes louder at one frequency -- quite the opposite of what most enthusiasts are aiming for. We do have some max SPL measurements on both subs from different sources. Sound and Vision states the Klipsch RW-12D hit 115dB at 50hz. Ricci's measurements on data-bass states the 50hz max spl was 110.4dB on the PL200. I don't know how different the SPLs would be if Ricci measured the RW-12D, but I can guess that it wouldn't be a run away spl competition in favor of the PL200. No good eh? Too different measurements so it means nothing. Okay --- I can also once again use data correlation in identifying that both reviewers have measured the Outlaw LFM-1-EX. Let's use that as common data point. The Sound and Vision review said the max output they measured was 109dB at 32hz on the Klipsch RW-12D, while Rici states that the max SPL he reached was 110.7dB at 32hz on the PL200. So I'm going to go ahead and make another educated guess based on correlated data set to say the PL200 is a few dB less powerful than the RW-12D at it's peak. This fact matters more than just the few dB it represents because the pl200 peak clearly stands alone while the Rw-12d peak is more in line with the rest of its frequency response capability. Let's put this in perspective. Compare the PL200 to the Outlaw LFM-1-EX sub on the data-bass site. The RW-12D isn't as good as the outlaw, but its in the same generic class, and the RW-12D didn't finish last place in the $700 mid priced shootout against the likes of well respected brands like SVS, Velodyne, HSU, and Outlaw (all about $700 well respected internet direct subs). That should pretty much close this discussion.

You said we have data on hand to see on which we can base advice. I've done so accurately. You are misinterrpreting the data. Since we are at a point that data has been posted that clearly proves which sub is easily the stronger candidate for the $300 budget buyer and you still dismiss the data, or are misinterpreting it, I'll now drop out of this conversation. There really is not much more I can say. The data is clear, and it's not pointing towards the conclusions you have reached.
Edited by Archaea - 8/2/12 at 4:00pm

There are two threads going on with this same topic. I'm not sure how that happened, but here is the second. I think audiophile2k and I've crossed wires to some degree and posted rebuttals in one or the other of these two threads that have relevance to discussions held in the other thread, but for my part I'm going to try to walk away from this discussion at this point. I feel I've said all I can on this matter. I'm truly glad you are enjoying your setup Audiophile2k and that you feel enough satisfaction with it to provide it a recommendation.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1364182/list-of-budget-subwoofers-300-and-less/300_20

Man, I got confused with the two threads and I posted this response in the other one which came out of nowhere.

OK, I guess you missed what I said. I will make it simple based only on the two in room graphs. The Klipsch -6 dB point is around(SMS does not have good resolution) 21-22 dBs and the PL-200 is around 28-30dBs. This alone makes the Klipsch go lower in his room. I know you are looking at that pretty nice flatter graph from 15-20hz but that is way down compared to 30hz. It won't be felt at all unless you crank the sub and at that point it will be all distortion. Over 10% distortion sounds awful and one would notice. The PL-200 has over 10% THD under 25hz with a 95 dB sweep outside so inside it will get a little better. When I said the Klipsch plays louder what I meant is that with those graphs the Klipsch at 20hz was louder than the PL-200 with the same sweep.

MK, the subs were NOT volume leveled at the same spot, as is evident in the 12D have greater output across the board, therefor you cannot use arbitrary -Xdb compared to a reference which does exist. All you can do is what I did, and compare -Xdb in reference to each subs own peaks.

First of all the graphs show if either sub has a HPF it is more likely the 12D because of its steep drop off compared to the relative smooth roll off in the deep bass of the 200. Second, you are quoting Archea in one of his attempt to contradict everything everyone but him says, NOT Capricorn Kid. here are some of Capricorn Kid's quotes on the subject.

"It made me think that maybe the PL-200s are able to handle stronger deeper effects than the Klipsch."

"I played the scene over and over again and I seemed the PL-200 was not working as hard as the Klipsch. "

"There is a difference in the lower end response. The mic was at the main listening seat during these measurments. The PL-200s seem to have a smoother roll off than the RW12ds. Could this be the reason the Klipsch were spitting out port noise during that scene in War Horse and the PL-200s showed no signs of stress?"

Please refer to the in room graphs from Capricorn Kid. They give you an apple to apple comparison of the two speakers in question. They more accurately represent what a typical user will see compared to the outdoor ground plane charts from Ricci you keep referring to. (and using to jump to some incorrect conclusions) It is NOT tuned to 45hz, it is more likely 30hz. Even Ricci's data showed it capable of CLEAN output up to 96.2db @ 25hz in their sub database, which is a direct contradiction of what you keep posting. That number is greater than several of the subs they have tested which cost several times as much, so lets keep this in the perspective of a sub that cost $280. He even complimented the sub on its low distortion. Of course it can't play at reference level at 20hz, but neither can any of the subs that cost $600 or less. You should just go to that database comparison chart between all the subs they have measured to get a true view of how it performs. Individual measurements can be useful, but certainly don't present the whole picture. http://www.audioholics.com/education/loudspeaker-basics/subwoofer-measurement-data

The Klipsch RW-12D $299.99 sale is back on Newegg today and tomorrow only (ends 8/12).

I might pull the trigger, haven't decided yet though.

ah! do i really need two of these or just stick with one?

depending on your room and seating position you might get by with one, but for most rooms two will be an improvement. Two will also give you more volume capability and smoother frequency response across the room.

i think ill just stick with one for now. the pioneers i have will add to the bass and this sale comes around often enough

what pioneers?

fs-51s, they wont add a lot but a little i would think, obviously nothing too low though

for those who owns Klipsch RW-12D, does it support 220-240 voltage? If not, is there an easy way to modify it to enable 220v? I know that some BIC subwoofers allow you to enable 220v input.

The product info lists "EXPORT VOLTAGE: 220 VAC 50/60H", not sure if it is only available on export version, or there is a simple switch inside the sub that allows us to modify it to 220v.

thanks!

I am not an audiophile but do like good sound. I do have a few extra bucks to spend on some higher quality things but am always looking for the best bang for the buck. I am running a Denon AVR2112CI, Pioneer FS-51 LR, up front, SP-C21 center, BS-21 LR for the rears and a BIC PL-200 subwoofer and i am very happy with my set up every time I play a movie.( It does put a smile on my face) Down stairs I am Putting the Almost the same set up together. I am using the new updated Pioneers and i just purchased the Klipsch RW-12D for the sub. ($300.00 at new egg) and a Denon AVR 1612. This set up is costing me $800.00. In my opinion you can get some very good equipment for a very good price. I will chime in and let you know how the BIC PL-200 compares with the Klipsch RW-12D.

Rw12d on sale at new egg for 280$ for 2 days!!!

Best deal on this sub, and best sub for the $.

So $280 is the historical low for this sub? I wasn debating between the RW-12D or Jamo SUB 650 but seems the klipsch is the better one?

from my research, jamo 650 is a tad flatter but the klipsch will play louder. the lowest i have ever seen the 12d before this is 300, 280 is a steal imo. i am so close to buying a second one.