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Best hdmi cable - Page 2

post #31 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwiokie View Post

I have never opened up a cable but assume it is simply made of copper strands so how does an HDMI cable pass 1's and 0's if not through an electrical charge? If it is an electrical charge, (probably low voltage, low current with short bursts of varying voltage) why would that not be subject to the same reductions of voltage due to the resistance over the length of the cable and potentially poor slew rates as any other electrical charge passing down a copper strand? I thought both issues would result in some form of algorithmic error correction by the receiving device that could very well result in reduced picture or sound quality (perhaps data sent in packets with a header specifying number of bits in the packet and a check digit?). That would be consistent with the testing process in the link provided that determines if the cable meets type 1 or type 2 standards. I would guess that this is not a case of the cable either passing the test signal or it doesn't, rather the data loss over the length of the cable due to the issues mentioned above result in an unacceptable error rate by the receiving device sufficient to meet the type 1 or 2 designation. Hence a cable of 3ft may pass type 1 and 2 whereas a 20ft cable of the same design may only pass type 1. Happy to be edumacated on this.

Except there is no video error correction in HDMI. Too many bits per second (along with the encryption requirements) when HDMI originally came out to have error correction as well. Any spare bits probably went to encryption anyway.

So any errors result in very visible artifacts - sparkles, single color rectangles, lines. It isn't subtle.

As I said, as long as there aren't any errors, the same 1s and 0s make it from one end of the cable to the other.

Even if there were error correction, then the image should still be pristine.

However, you are correct that an acceptable digital signal can start getting rounded (the square wave gets rounded edges) when impedances are unacceptable due to a longer than spec cable. However, in all cases if the cable says type II (high speed) then it is certified to work at those distances with all types of HDMI signals (actually faster than all types of current HDMI signals).

The eye test pattern is used to determine whether the cable is acceptable or not (at least one of the ways). A very short explanation of the eye test pattern is at:

http://www.hdmi.org/installers/eyediagram.aspx
post #32 of 60
Thread Starter 
So after doing some research. And also speaking with monoprice. The cheap hdmi cable I have purchased can't support the signal. Explains why i get poor pic quality from netflix and blu-ray. I should have purchased a high speed certified hdmi cable not a standard. Just to make sure, I took my cable to best buy. And they hooked it up to a 3d sony led,lcd and 3d blu-ray. And pic is garbage. So I guess not every hdmi is the same or equal. I was also told that. Standard hdmi cables are for older lcd, plasma, and older blu-ray. And high speed is for newer led,lcd,plasma's and newer blu-ray. It makes sense, I mean why make 2 different types of cable.
post #33 of 60
^^^

sigh...

you didn't learn much from this thread, did you?
post #34 of 60
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^

sigh...

you didn't learn much from this thread, did you?

Obviously not, so why don't you clue me in.
post #35 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by joe801 View Post

Obviously not, so why don't you clue me in.

Just go back through and read the whole thread. People get upset when people seem to make entire new threads asking questions that have been answered numerous times before. But in all honesty, it's almost easier to start a new thread asking your question, then digging through existing threads to find your answer. But I digress.

Basically there are different types of HDMI cables. Some support higher resolutions/bandwidths, while others support just 720p/1080i. Why are there two types? Good question. Chances are it has to do with marketing and increasing profits.

Whatever the reason, you can get good, high speed, certified HDMI cables either at Amazon or Monoprice.com. I have cables from both, but I trust Monoprice a lot more. Shouldn't be more than $5. I think I bought a 25 footer for around $11 a while back.
post #36 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by joe801 View Post

So after doing some research. And also speaking with monoprice. The cheap hdmi cable I have purchased can't support the signal. Explains why i get poor pic quality from netflix and blu-ray. I should have purchased a high speed certified hdmi cable not a standard. Just to make sure, I took my cable to best buy. And they hooked it up to a 3d sony led,lcd and 3d blu-ray. And pic is garbage. So I guess not every hdmi is the same or equal. I was also told that. Standard hdmi cables are for older lcd, plasma, and older blu-ray. And high speed is for newer led,lcd,plasma's and newer blu-ray. It makes sense, I mean why make 2 different types of cable.

Joe, can you give me an idea of your background? Do you have a technical degree? Have you been involved with A/V for long?

The reason I'm asking is that there are two pages now discussing this and apparently nothing we said sunk in. So, I have to believe we're explaining things in a way you don't understand. If you can give us an idea of your background we can then tailor our answers to that.

Also could you explain what you mean by "picture quality"? Many people use that term incorrectly.

We would like to help, but obviously we're not doing that yet.
post #37 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by alk3997 View Post

Joe, can you give me an idea of your background? Do you have a technical degree? Have you been involved with A/V for long?

The reason I'm asking is that there are two pages now discussing this and apparently nothing we said sunk in. So, I have to believe we're explaining things in a way you don't understand. If you can give us an idea of your background we can then tailor our answers to that.

Also could you explain what you mean by "picture quality"? Many people use that term incorrectly.

We would like to help, but obviously we're not doing that yet.

Chances are he's just logging on after all the helpful posts were made, and simply didn't read them.
post #38 of 60
Oy Vay! Just buy a Certified High Speed HDMI cable at the length you want from a reputable dealer and be done with it.
post #39 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post

Oy Vay! Just buy a Certified High Speed HDMI cable at the length you want from a reputable dealer and be done with it.

Except his real problem is with his internet link which the HDMI cables does nothing. Of course that depends upon what he really means by "picture quality".

I think he believes that just because someone tells him his internet connection is 15 mbps, it will always be 15 mbps.
post #40 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by joe801 View Post

... So I guess not every hdmi is the same or equal. I was also told that. Standard hdmi cables are for older lcd, plasma, and older blu-ray. And high speed is for newer led,lcd,plasma's and newer blu-ray. It makes sense, I mean why make 2 different types of cable.

You realize this is wrong? They were just trying to sell you a more expensive cable.

You may have had a bad cable - always a possibility. However, the explanation provided by those nifty blue shirts at BB was wrong.
post #41 of 60
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by alk3997 View Post

You realize this is wrong? They were just trying to sell you a more expensive cable.

You may have had a bad cable - always a possibility. However, the explanation provided by those nifty blue shirts at BB was wrong.

Monoprice told me this. And I purchased 2 of them for $12.00. They didn't try to sale me anything. Nor did best buy try to sell me anything.And my last post, I was just being sarcastic.
post #42 of 60
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterofBlasting View Post

Chances are he's just logging on after all the helpful posts were made, and simply didn't read them.

Exactly thank you!
post #43 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by joe801 View Post

Monoprice told me this. And I purchased 2 of them for $12.00. They didn't try to sale me anything. Nor did best buy try to sell me anything.And my last post, I was just being sarcastic.

So the Monoprice cables didn't work? Or have you not tested them yet on your setup.
post #44 of 60
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by alk3997 View Post

Joe, can you give me an idea of your background? Do you have a technical degree? Have you been involved with A/V for long?

The reason I'm asking is that there are two pages now discussing this and apparently nothing we said sunk in. So, I have to believe we're explaining things in a way you don't understand. If you can give us an idea of your background we can then tailor our answers to that.

Also could you explain what you mean by "picture quality"? Many people use that term incorrectly.

We would like to help, but obviously we're not doing that yet.

You want my backround? Oh god, obviously if I had any hands on a/v experience. I wouldn't have made this thread. When i say my pic quality is garbage. Let me be more elaborate. I have a lot of blur, high def channels look like standard def quality.
post #45 of 60
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterofBlasting View Post

So the Monoprice cables didn't work? Or have you not tested them yet on your setup.

I ordered it on saturday. It's suppose to be here later today.
post #46 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by joe801 View Post

I ordered it on saturday. It's suppose to be here later today.

Ok. Well I recently bought a few Monoprice cables, probably the same cables you bought, and they work great for all content and resolutions. If these cables don't cables don't show you an improvement in picture quality, then we may have other issues.

But I've order 6' HDMI cables from Amazon before, realized after purchase that they were HDMI 1.2 I believe. They played 1080p content poorly, and the audio was very choppy. So chances are the new cables should work for you.
post #47 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by joe801 View Post

You want my backround? Oh god, obviously if I had any hands on a/v experience. I wouldn't have made this thread. When i say my pic quality is garbage. Let me be more elaborate. I have a lot of blur, high def channels look like standard def quality.

OK, that helps. Let's go through the basics and you'll get a chance to prove me right or wrong later today apparently.

The Internet comes into your house by some form of cable or fibre. In the case of a cable company, the speed that is advertised is your maximum speed (not true of FIOS or other true fiber optic systems). It is the maximum speed with cable because as your neighbors use the same trunk line, the numbers of bits devoted to you goes down. So at peak times your bits per second could be much less than 15 mbps.

Why that is important is the way MPEG2 and H.264 (MPEG4) work for streaming video. The signal comes in as blocks. The faster the connection, the smaller and smaller the blocks that can come in. For high definition there are a lot of blocks getting smaller and smaller. The MPEGs also take into account if anything has changed within a block and don't resend it if it hasn't changed (except for I-frames, but that is another story).

OK, so if you starve a video signal (not enough bits per second for the resolution and the amount of changes in the video), then you start seeing a blocky picture or something that could look like a lower resolution image.

On top of that some streaming companies automatically decrease the resolution if your link isn't keeping up.

Notice that none of this has anything to do with HDMI. It is purely the Internet signal coming into your house. The box that decodes the streaming video then converts those bits into a picture and audio. It is only after this decoding that the HDMI cable gets involved to send it to your receiver (if you use one) and your TV.

Unless you have set your streaming device or TV to a lower resolution, the HDMI connection will not change the resolution. Any HDMI errors will show up as sparkles or lines or solid single colors or not picture at all. They will not show up as a blury picture or lower resolution.

I think what may have confused you was the BB blue shirt talking about resolutions with HDMI cables. Basically a 1080i/720p picture uses lots less bits than a 1080p picture when it sends the picture from the video device to the TV. If you think of the cable as a water pipe and the bits as water, some cables (pipes) are designed to send a medium amount of water and other are designed to send a large amount of water at the same time. If you try to send a large amount of water through a pipe that is designed for a medium amount of water, you'll still only get a medium amount of water. That's what kind-of happens with a long standard speed cable trying to send high speed data. Notice I said "long standard speed" cable because even a small standard speed HDMI cable can send 1080p/60 reliably.

So when your high speed cable arrives tonight, you should see the same picture you would have seen with your old HDMI cable. If you see a better picture, I'll bet it is just because less of your neighbors are using the internet at the same time.

Hope this helps.
post #48 of 60
I thought I'd share this link for some comic relief. It seems as if some of the gang in the "HDTV Technical" subforum MAY have logged in and posted some glowing reviews for this magical $1100 HDMI cable on the Best Buy website...

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/AudioQue...ustomerreviews
post #49 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by holt7153 View Post

I thought I'd share this link for some comic relief. It seems as if some of the gang in the "HDTV Technical" subforum MAY have logged in and posted some glowing reviews for this magical $1100 HDMI cable on the Best Buy website...

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/AudioQue...ustomerreviews

That's great - glad the Blue Shirts don't read their reviews (or maybe don't understand their reviews).
post #50 of 60
So, how's the new cable joe801?
post #51 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by alk3997 View Post


The Internet comes into your house by some form of cable or fibre. In the case of a cable company, the speed that is advertised is your maximum speed (not true of FIOS or other true fiber optic systems). It is the maximum speed with cable because as your neighbors use the same trunk line, the numbers of bits devoted to you goes down. So at peak times your bits per second could be much less than 15 mbps.

That's why I like my ADSL2+. I always have a consistent 19-20Mbps download. I can easily stream a 1080p movie from Vudu with no problems. BTW, your internet explanation should be saved right along with your HDMI lesson for easier future posting
post #52 of 60
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterofBlasting View Post

So, how's the new cable joe801?

It's good, but what do I know. Since i didn't learn anything. Just saying, not being a smart a**.
post #53 of 60
I called some time back wirelogic support team. He mentioned that good hdmi cables do not drop audio signal. Also, At very peak dyanamic rates(high video/audio data bits per second), good hdmi cables handle data properly. They also individually test cables.

Surprisingly, it is hard to find long high speed hdmi cables even from monoprice. They say standard cables as well handle 3d quality, but I am not sure.

Fortunately, I bought 40 feet wirelogic hdmi cable from costco for $30 last week. It is as expensive as monoprice for this price.

Wirelogic did not specify if it is certified for high speed, but says supports 3d and 4k resolution. I read that none of long cables are certified for high speed.

I was also thinking hdmi cable is similar to ethernet cable where you get data or not, but not good data or bad data. It is possible for brief moments of time data may be corrupt and there is no time for display devices to request source to send data again. I could be wrong.
post #54 of 60
You're mostly right. The maximum certified length of a high speed HDMI cable these days is approximately 25 feet. However the pin-outs between a standard speed and high speed cable are the same. Also the current HDMI chipsets aren't using anywhere near the maximum bandwidth that a high speed cable allows.

All that combined means that some standard speed cables will work at high speeds. The higher gauge cable seems to have a better chance of working. The shorter the cable, the more chance of it working.

If it doesn't work you'll see sparkles, no picture, screens of a single color, lines. It won't be subtle.

There are only two types of HDMI cables - standard speed and high speed.
post #55 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by sukumar View Post

I was also thinking hdmi cable is similar to ethernet cable where you get data or not, but not good data or bad data. It is possible for brief moments of time data may be corrupt and there is no time for display devices to request source to send data again.

It is entirely possible for data to be corrupted. If it is, you will see sparkles or worse as Andy pointed out. There is no retransmission in HDMI. You get whatever you get.

FWIW the same type of cable may be rated standard or high speed depending on length, e.g. BJC Series 1 is certified high speed at 25', standard at 45'. For any type of cable, the longer it is, the lower the bit rate it will be able to support.
post #56 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colm View Post

It is entirely possible for data to be corrupted. If it is, you will see sparkles or worse as Andy pointed out. There is no retransmission in HDMI. You get whatever you get.

FWIW the same type of cable may be rated standard or high speed depending on length, e.g. BJC Series 1 is certified high speed at 25', standard at 45'. For any type of cable, the longer it is, the lower the bit rate it will be able to support.

Good to know how rating changes based on length.

Does long cable (40 feet etc) causes any delay in video signal? Also, the cable I bought from wirelogic is rated as 4k resolution. I believe 1080 p is 1.9k (1920x1080p). What resolution does wire has to support for 3d? Not sure if 3d transmission needs 4k resolution or 4k resolution is meant for future.

Appreciate for your help.
post #57 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by sukumar View Post

Good to know how rating changes based on length.

Does long cable (40 feet etc) causes any delay in video signal? Also, the cable I bought from wirelogic is rated as 4k resolution. I believe 1080 p is 1.9k (1920x1080p). What resolution does wire has to support for 3d? Not sure if 3d transmission needs 4k resolution or 4k resolution is meant for future.

Appreciate for your help.

Certified High Speed HDMI cables have ratings that exceed current consumer technology, of which 4k is one of them (another is ethernet). So, in a sense, you're buying for the future which is not necessarily a bad thing.
post #58 of 60
I know it may be hard to believe but there really are only two types of HDMI cables. Resolution is irrelevent to the cable since it just sends 1s and 0s. Bandwidth is relevent and all of the specs you listed fit within the high speed bandwidth.

The electric field moves at close to the speed of light so 40 feet of cable isn't going to make much difference.
post #59 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by alk3997 View Post

Resolution is irrelevent to the cable since it just sends 1s and 0s.

It is beginning to be relevant if you cannot get a high speed cable in the length your need, anything over about 25'. The maximum usable bit rate, and therefore the maximum usable resolution, goes down as the length of the cable increases. Until the advent of 3D, it wasn't a significant problem. 1080p60 at 100' was not unheard of with a good cable. Increase the bit rate 50% by running deep color at 48 bits and you will be lucky to go 45'. Double the bit rate by going to 3D with standard color and the limit will be around 25'. Something has to give on a long run, resolution, color depth, frame rate, or 2D/3D.

Of course, for long distances we now have HDBaseT solutions from several manufacturers.
post #60 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by joe801 View Post

It's good, but what do I know. Since i didn't learn anything. Just saying, not being a smart a**.

Hopefully this explanation will help.


HDMI is a digital signal. This means all data is sent using bits. In other words, there's only two values (for example: 0 or 1). Imagine communicating with someone over a distance by turning a flashlight on and off in a specific pattern.

By contrast, an analog signal has a "range" of values. So, instead of using an on/off switch on your flashlight, an analog signal would be like using a brightness dial. The flashlight is always on, but the message changes based on how bright the flashlight is.

The reason picture quality degrades with analog cables (not HDMI) is due to the effects of interference. For my example, interference could be represented by fog.

So, imagine now that it's a foggy day and you're still trying to communicate with a flashlight. Obviously, the brightness is not the same anymore and you can't see the full "range" of brightness (because the dim settings are no longer visible). Therefore, the analog message is different! However, even on a foggy day while the light may be weak, you can still recognize when it's turned on and off. Therefore, the digital message is exactly the same even with some interference!

Now, obviously if there's too much fog, you can't see the flashlight at all. This is why an HDMI signal is typically either perfect or blank.

There is a borderline when the fog is "just right" that it's hard to see every flash of the flashlight. This will cause your picture to show "sparkles" or lines because not every pixel was read properly.

The short explanation is this: if you have a bad HDMI cable or a bad signal, the problem is very obvious. You either have no picture at all, or you will get dots/lines. A problem with your HDMI connection does not cause a blurry picture.


Also, to answer your other question, the reason there are two types of HDMI cables is because the features of HDMI have evolved. "Standard" cables are certified for the original tests which support a bandwidth of up to 2.25Gb/s. "High speed" was introduced in October of 2008 and supports a bandwidth up to 10.2 Gb/s. You may or may not need the extra bandwidth of "high speed" depending on your source/equipment.


The problem you describe is not a cable problem though; it's a network problem. Besides considering your internet connection, you also have to consider the quality of your home network. Network interference will cause corrupted messages which have to be dropped and resent (this slows everything down). This is especially true if you're using a wireless network which is prone to all sorts of possible interference.


I hope that helps.
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