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Affordable & reliable signal generator PC?

post #1 of 69
11/29/11 at 1:17am
Thread Starter 
While I thought I could effectively use my notebook as a a signal generator via HDMI, I was trapped in these thoughts

So the question is:
- Is there a chance to get proper signal output from a computer via HDMI, without colour drifts?
- If not, what valid & reliable alternatives are there?
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post #2 of 69
11/29/11 at 4:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by blutarsky View Post

While I thought I could effectively use my notebook as a a signal generator via HDMI, I was trapped in these thoughts

So the question is:
- Is there a chance to get proper signal output from a computer via HDMI, without colour drifts?
- If not, what valid & reliable alternatives are there?

Software PC Signal Generators are accurate, the problem is that the graphic card's at their output produces the color shift problems.

You have to compare your PC Output with a Reference External Pattern Generator to see if your PC output is accurate.

Are you using your PC as a Source for Blu-Ray Playback?
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post #3 of 69
11/29/11 at 6:08am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Are you using your PC as a Source for Blu-Ray Playback?

No, I'm using a PS3.

That shouldn't be a major issue, assuming the PS3 shifts could be compensated by a proper calibration. Correct? The drawback would be that "compensated" settings wouldn't be usable for all the other TV inputs...

That said, also a proper calibration done with a error-free signal generator wouldn't cope well with unbalanced devices attached to the calibrated inputs... for example, an HD Sat decoder will probably introduce some color shifts...

Your thoughts?
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post #4 of 69
11/29/11 at 7:00am
Forget any other device. Calibration is valid only for BluRay Player since there some standarts in the mastering of the BluRay Movies we are targeting.

Satelite Signal, TV Signal, Games. nonone is following well any standard. (Exept the Signal Standatd) Multiple conversion are made by the channels when you are getting the singal.

For example, watch the same TV Channel all day (with your calibrated tv using a Blu-Ray Source), do you see the same skintones during the day? It's imposible to have the same skintones.

If you are watching NTSC DVD Movies, the color primaries are different from the HD Rec. 709 Blu-Ray Movies, you need different settings for that also.
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post #5 of 69
11/29/11 at 7:08am
Thread Starter 
Well that is what I was aiming to.

- Do you think that a colour-shifted but properly calibrated PS3 will do the job?
- What about the other Inputs? Once you have calibrated the BR input, what will you do with the SAT input? My SAT provider is broadcasting HD. I believe they stick to REC-709.
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post #6 of 69
11/29/11 at 7:43am
HD Channels have Rec. 709 color space but program is not following that specs. You don't know if your TV decoder is accurate also.

PS3 has unknown performance, generally Sony Blu-Ray Players have the most teribble performance from all other brands, check the test that Secrets of Home Theater Mag has post.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post20898530

Check also the Jeff Maier's article about the ''Analysis of Secrets Blu-Ray Player HDMI Benchmark Data Colorspace Tests''

http://homecinemaguru.com/?p=1335
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post #7 of 69
11/29/11 at 7:44am
Thread Starter 
What can we do? Seems all useless, at this point!
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post #8 of 69
11/29/11 at 7:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by blutarsky View Post

What can we do? Seems all useless, at this point!

What can we do..... Care about only your Blu-Ray Player Calibration and later apply these setttings to all your sources.
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post #9 of 69
11/29/11 at 7:55am
Thread Starter 
Well, you need a proper BR player or signal generator!!! Using a colour shifted player would lead in a compansated calibration, just good for that input!

2 options here:
- get a proper BR player
- use another source for signal generator.... In the other thread, Farenheit was talking about the WD TV Live.....can't undesrtand how this box would be set as a signal generator..... what do you think?
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post #10 of 69
11/29/11 at 8:00am
Do your calibration using AVSHD (Free) Calibration Disk & Find the best colorspace output using Spears & Munsil High Definition Benchmark Blu-Ray Disk.
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post #11 of 69
11/29/11 at 8:01am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by blutarsky View Post

Well, you need a proper BR player or signal generator!!! Using a colour shifted player would lead in a compansated calibration, just good for that input!

Correct?
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post #12 of 69
11/29/11 at 8:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Do your calibration using AVSHD (Free) Calibration Disk & Find the best colorspace output using Spears & Munsil High Definition Benchmark Blu-Ray Disk.

So, lets say you're using Spectracal's CalMAN software to do your calibration, and you're using the Spears & Munsil High Definition Benchmarck Blue-Ray Disk. You won't be able to allow the software to control the color patches, right? You'll have to somehow manually flip through the colors, and manually tell CalMAN to take readings with each color... Correct?
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post #13 of 69
11/29/11 at 8:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZandarKoad View Post

So, lets say you're using Spectracal's CalMAN software to do your calibration, and you're using the Spears & Munsil High Definition Benchmarck Blue-Ray Disk. You won't be able to allow the software to control the color patches, right? You'll have to somehow manually flip through the colors, and manually tell CalMAN to take readings with each color... Correct?

I don't think the Musil disc has all the swatches we need.

We have 3 different modes of automation for discs.
We can do pop up prompts for you to change the chapter.
We can do a pattern autosense where we change the point we are reading when we see the level we are reading change.
The third option is IR automation, which requires the USB UIRT, but then CalMAN can take control of the disc player.
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post #14 of 69
11/29/11 at 9:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

I don't think the Musil disc has all the swatches we need.

We have 3 different modes of automation for discs.
We can do pop up prompts for you to change the chapter.
We can do a pattern autosense where we change the point we are reading when we see the level we are reading change.
The third option is IR automation, which requires the USB UIRT, but then CalMAN can take control of the disc player.

THAT is sweet. I must get that IR USB thingymabopper.
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post #15 of 69
11/29/11 at 9:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZandarKoad View Post

So, lets say you're using Spectracal's CalMAN software to do your calibration, and you're using the Spears & Munsil High Definition Benchmarck Blue-Ray Disk. You won't be able to allow the software to control the color patches, right? You'll have to somehow manually flip through the colors, and manually tell CalMAN to take readings with each color... Correct?

Yes, manually select each pattern from your blu-ray remote control.

AVSHD has patterns to measure using a meter.
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post #16 of 69
11/29/11 at 11:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZandarKoad View Post

THAT is sweet. I must get that IR USB thingymabopper.

PS3 uses 2.4GHz wireless for controllers, i don't think that IR USB will work for PS3.

For Sony Blu-Ray or other brands it will work great for sure.
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post #17 of 69
11/29/11 at 11:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

PS3 uses 2.4GHz wireless for controllers, i don't think that IR USB will work for PS3.

For Sony Blu-Ray or other brands it will work great for sure.

There are IR adapters the either connect via USB or relay the signal to the Bluetooth interface, but you're correct that out of the box there is no IR receiver on the PS3.
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post #18 of 69
11/29/11 at 12:16pm
Does Calman DIY have a built in workflow to control the Oppo BDP-93 using this USB UIRT interface and auto cal with a JVC RS40 projector?

Is it plug and play or do I need to program the USB UIRT with all the commands from the OPPO remote?
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post #19 of 69
11/29/11 at 12:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by npc2396 View Post

Does Calman DIY have a built in workflow to control the Oppo BDP-93 using this USB UIRT interface and auto cal with a JVC RS40 projector?

Is it plug and play or do I need to program the USB UIRT with all the commands from the OPPO remote?

I believe the OPPO is supported out of the box, but if need be you can "program" CalMAN with the IR commands.

You don't need a specific workflow, it's just a pattern source you select.
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post #20 of 69
11/29/11 at 1:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

There are IR adapters the either connect via USB or relay the signal to the Bluetooth interface, but you're correct that out of the box there is no IR receiver on the PS3.

You are right, you'll need a PSX/PS2 Controller-to-USB adapter as well as an original Sony DVD remote for the PS2 (model SCPH-10172) with external IR receiver (model SCPH-10160).
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post #21 of 69
11/29/11 at 1:42pm
Have not seen anyone mention media players.. something like the dune or tvix?
http://dune-hd.com/
http://www.tvix.co.kr/eng/productList.aspx
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post #22 of 69
11/29/11 at 1:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

I believe the OPPO is supported out of the box, but if need be you can "program" CalMAN with the IR commands.

You don't need a specific workflow, it's just a pattern source you select.

Yes we do support the Oppo with the USB-UIRT controller and the AVS disk.
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post #23 of 69
11/29/11 at 1:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

Have not seen anyone mention media players.. something like the dune or tvix?
http://dune-hd.com/
http://www.tvix.co.kr/eng/productList.aspx

The problem with most media players is we don't get a reference output from them. Yes they can display an image but it may not be right. So far the WD players with the correct firmware do.
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post #24 of 69
11/29/11 at 1:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by blutarsky View Post

Well, you need a proper BR player or signal generator!!! Using a colour shifted player would lead in a compansated calibration, just good for that input!

2 options here:
- get a proper BR player
- use another source for signal generator.... In the other thread, Farenheit was talking about the WD TV Live.....can't undesrtand how this box would be set as a signal generator..... what do you think?

This example highlights the problem.



If you were to use the PS3 to calibrate for other sources, then that dip in red and rise in blue at the 30% point would wreck the grayscale.
Likewise, if you used another source device to calibrate the PS3's input, the result would also be incorrect. Neither option is suitable.

In this example, only the PS3 can be used to calibrate its own input and isn't suitable to calibrating any other source unless it too behaves the same way at that point in the white balance.
This may not be the behaviour of every PS3 out there. It certainly is with my 40Gb and my Panasonic plasma. YMMV.

The WDTV Live is just a fast booting playback device that is capable of dishing-out 1080p in all the refresh rates that you would want in a nice small package. Its a piece of crap imho, but there really isn't much available at that price-point sadly.
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post #25 of 69
11/29/11 at 4:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by fahrenheit View Post


This example highlights the problem.

If you were to use the PS3 to calibrate for other sources, then that dip in red and rise in blue at the 30% point would wreck the grayscale.
Likewise, if you used another source device to calibrate the PS3's input, the result would also be incorrect. Neither option is suitable.

In this example, only the PS3 can be used to calibrate its own input and isn't suitable to calibrating any other source unless it too behaves the same way at that point in the white balance.
This may not be the behaviour of every PS3 out there. It certainly is with my 40Gb and my Panasonic plasma. YMMV.

The WDTV Live is just a fast booting playback device that is capable of dishing-out 1080p in all the refresh rates that you would want in a nice small package. Its a piece of crap imho, but there really isn't much available at that price-point sadly.

If the PS3 is setup to output correctly (Superwhite on for YPbPr and RGB Limited for RGB mode) then the PS3 output over HDMI is bit perfect. If you are seeing issues with another source when the input was calibrated using the PS3 then the other device is wrong. All output from the PS3 would be correct if the settings in the menu are correct. If they aren't correct then the PS3 output can be off.
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post #26 of 69
11/29/11 at 4:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smackrabbit View Post

If the PS3 is setup to output correctly (Superwhite on for YPbPr and RGB Limited for RGB mode) then the PS3 output over HDMI is bit perfect. If you are seeing issues with another source when the input was calibrated using the PS3 then the other device is wrong. All output from the PS3 would be correct if the settings in the menu are correct. If they aren't correct then the PS3 output can be off.

Hello Chris, Using Superwhite on for YPbPr and RGB Limited for RGB mode on PS3, then it passes the HDMI Benchmark Data Colorspace Tests with zero dE 94 ?
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post #27 of 69
11/29/11 at 5:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smackrabbit View Post

If the PS3 is setup to output correctly (Superwhite on for YPbPr and RGB Limited for RGB mode) then the PS3 output over HDMI is bit perfect. If you are seeing issues with another source when the input was calibrated using the PS3 then the other device is wrong. All output from the PS3 would be correct if the settings in the menu are correct. If they aren't correct then the PS3 output can be off.

Those are precisely the settings I use.

I find it difficult to accept that all my other sources are incorrect. None show the same grayscale tracking as the PS3. Two of those other devices are also WDTV Live boxes which SpectraCal see fit to sell as reference pattern generators.

The PS3's firmware and hardware revision may factor into the result but that is more difficult for me to test against.
I guess I need to aquire some other reference hardware to test against, but if other PS3 owners could post their findings, then it would be much appreciated. I can't be the only one.
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post #28 of 69
11/29/11 at 5:40pm
And if you're going to post graphs or charts, please in the name of everything holy LABEL YOUR AXES.
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post #29 of 69
11/29/11 at 5:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZandarKoad View Post

LABEL YOUR AXES.

Can you clarify please?

This is 10 point grayscale with 'X' representing the stimulas and 'Y' the result.
Could it really be anything else?
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post #30 of 69
11/29/11 at 6:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by fahrenheit View Post

Can you clarify please?

This is 10 point grayscale with 'X' representing the stimulas and 'Y' the result.
Could it really be anything else?

I'm certain that soon, all these charts and graphs will be self explanatory to me. But as of right now, I'm still learning.
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