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Affordable & reliable signal generator PC? - Page 2

post #31 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZandarKoad View Post

I'm certain that soon, all these charts and graphs will be self explanatory to me. But as of right now, I'm still learning.

Well you'd do better to ask politely than to make demands.
post #32 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post


Hello Chris, Using Superwhite on for YPbPr and RGB Limited for RGB mode on PS3, then it passes the HDMI Benchmark Data Colorspace Tests with zero dE 94 ?

I swear I will get around to writing it up (since we aren't reviewing the PS3 again it is a lower priority) but YCbCr is perfect and RGB is correct for the spec but cuts off all data below 16 and above 235 so use YCbCr if you can. There is some dithering (where the value can be +/- 1 value off) but that comes out as perfectly acceptable. It causes virtually no dE and won't be noticeable at all, unlike major errors in some other players.

We tested a Slim PS3 and a launch PS3, different firmware versions, and both were identical. Full range RGB is really, really bad, though. I don't quite understand what it's doing in that case.
post #33 of 69
Also, what are you using to measure the PS3 vs the WD Live? Since the results look to be about identical across the board until you get down to 40% or 30%, I'd also think it could easily be something caused by measurement error from a dark reading. That's a pretty large error, but no matter what mode the PS3 was in, the tracking doesn't fall off at the bottom of the scale like that, the error from SuperWhite being disabled, or running RGB Full, would be much different.
post #34 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smackrabbit View Post

Also, what are you using to measure the PS3 vs the WD Live? Since the results look to be about identical across the board until you get down to 40% or 30%, I'd also think it could easily be something caused by measurement error from a dark reading. That's a pretty large error, but no matter what mode the PS3 was in, the tracking doesn't fall off at the bottom of the scale like that, the error from SuperWhite being disabled, or running RGB Full, would be much different.

The PS3 is playing back the AVSHD (AVCHD) disc and outputting 60Hz (24p playback disabled). The WDTV live is playing back the same m2ts files taken from the AVCHD disc.

The measurement tool is an i1 D3 PRO so I'm confident enough of its ability to read accurately at 30% stimuli.

I discovered this problem when I used my perfectly calibrated PS3 settings with my Xbox 360 and instantly noticed the blacks had a very noticeable red push.
post #35 of 69
Thread Starter 
fahrenheit, could you explain how did you measure those outputs? I have you got an electronic device that reads signals comeing out from PS3 and WDTV box?

The discussion is getting interesting and GOLD for rookies as me
post #36 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by blutarsky View Post

fahrenheit, could you explain how did you measure those outputs? I have you got an electronic device that reads signals comeing out from PS3 and WDTV box?

Just a colorimeter (as noted above).
I am merely taking measurements from the TV when it is being fed the same reference material with the exact same presets in the TV's settings.

The next thing I will try is a different TV with my PS3 to see if I can see the same problem.
post #37 of 69
Thread Starter 
You need to ensure the panel is perfectly calibrated, otherwise both the results would be misleading. Without ensuring this, you can only assume that the two devices have dissimilar signals

Do you agree?
post #38 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by blutarsky View Post

You need to ensure the panel is perfectly calibrated, otherwise both the results would be misleading. Without ensuring this, you can only assume that the two devices have dissimilar signals

Do you agree?

The variable is the playback devices. Not the input, not the HDMI cable, not the TV's presets and not the test patterns. Those things are constants and don't change between readings.

I tested more than just the WDTV against the PS3 and my other devices all tended towards the WDTV's result.

I may not be able to put this to bed until I get a more respectable pattern generator to test against.
post #39 of 69
Thread Starter 
At least WDTV seems consistent through the scale apart from minor spikes in the blu channel. How do you "play" patterns on the WDTV?
post #40 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by fahrenheit View Post

Well you'd do better to ask politely than to make demands.

Duly noted.

So, we're all talking about calibrating a PS3, but what about other game consoles? I imagine, they must be able to at least play a DVD to display a test pattern. I mean, you couldn't calibrate a SNES for example (or any other cartridge only console), unless you found a game cartridge that actually displayed color patches, correct? But if you did find such a cartridge, and knew exactly what colors it displays, then you could calibrate older consoles, correct?

Or is that futile because the games themselves follow no standard anyway, so one game's red may be like another game's orange, even on the same console/tv/input?
post #41 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by blutarsky View Post

At least WDTV seems consistent through the scale apart from minor spikes in the blu channel. How do you "play" patterns on the WDTV?

The patterns on AVSHD are video, not stills.
post #42 of 69
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fahrenheit View Post

The patterns on AVSHD are video, not stills.

Seems a bit tricky..... how do you quickly switch "patterns"
post #43 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by blutarsky View Post

Seems a bit tricky..... how do you quickly switch "patterns"

I have split each pattern into its own individual clip. I can use the chapter skip buttons and chop back and forth as I require. Its still slower than I'd like it to be though.
post #44 of 69
Thread Starter 
Can't the box be used to show pictures?
post #45 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by blutarsky View Post

Can't the box be used to show pictures?

Yes, but I prefer video clips to stills. Especially when calibrating 1080i.
post #46 of 69
Thread Starter 
Why? If the box supports skipping up and down, it would be much easier to prepare a sequence for grayscale and colors....
post #47 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by blutarsky View Post

Why? If the box supports skipping up and down, it would be much easier to prepare a sequence for grayscale and colors....

I'm not calibrating carousel picture frames.

How are you supposed to calibrate for 24p if you can't get the display/playback device to output it? Using video, in the desired refresh rate ensures that the display behaves as you expect it to.

If the playback device or TV thinks it is smarter than you are, then there is no telling what it might do if you feed it a static source.
post #48 of 69
Thread Starter 
So the WDTV box outputs different modes depending on content?
post #49 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by blutarsky View Post

So the WDTV box outputs different modes depending on content?

You're looking at this the wrong way. Try and get a PS3 to output 24p when playing back stills from the XMB. It won't.
Its about having standardised testing material and eliminating variables when doing an A/B comparison.

If I had used AVSHD on the PS3 and then static jpgs on the WDTV and posted the results, you would have (rightly) called me up on it.
post #50 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by fahrenheit View Post

You're looking at this the wrong way. Try and get a PS3 to output 24p when playing back stills from the XMB. It won't.
Its about having standardised testing material and eliminating variables when doing an A/B comparison.

If I had used AVSHD on the PS3 and then static jpgs on the WDTV and posted the results, you would have (rightly) called me up on it.

That depends if you are trying to represent the content that comes from the device or if you are trying to use the device as a reference pattern generator.

If you are trying to find out if the content coming from a device is correct, you definitely need to compare like for like.

If you are just trying to use something as a reference source it doesn't really matter if it's a moving image or a still as a source. The HDMI cable doesn't know, the TV doesn't know it's all just encoded as a frame once it leaves the device.

Many devices do treat pictures different than video, and that's because pictures are typically have full range content and videos use video range. So compressing the jpg to video range would be the correct thing to do, from a consumer standpoint.
post #51 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

If you are just trying to use something as a reference source it doesn't really matter if it's a moving image or a still as a source. The HDMI cable doesn't know, the TV doesn't know it's all just encoded as a frame once it leaves the device.

Many devices do treat pictures different than video, and that's because pictures are typically have full range content and videos use video range. So compressing the jpg to video range would be the correct thing to do, from a consumer standpoint.

Its only really useful if the playback device can force its output to the desired resolution and refresh rate. Many devices (like the PS3) won't output 24p or 50Hz without an appropriately flagged source file.
post #52 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by fahrenheit View Post

Its only really useful if the playback device can force its output to the desired resolution and refresh rate. Many devices (like the PS3) won't output 24p or 50Hz without an appropriately flagged source file.

Entirely true.
You do need to have control of the refresh rate. Different displays do sometimes calibrate differently with different refresh rates.
post #53 of 69
Thread Starter 
So we need a "neutral" device for the reference.... I bet there's nothing cheaper than the WD box solution?
post #54 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by blutarsky View Post

So we need a "neutral" device for the reference.... I bet there's nothing cheaper than the WD box solution?

Use your player for displaying the patterns.

Any WD 'like' product must be checked versus a reference to see if it's accurate.

If for example you calibrate with a reference pattern generator and your playback device has a chroma shifting problem then all your reproductions will have that problem if you calibrate your set using the pattern generator only.

You need to be accurate from the player you are using for playback.
post #55 of 69
Thread Starter 
I would use a "neutral" generator to obtaining general purpose settings (for example for the sat receiver, as a starting base) and do another calibration for the BR.... at the moment my PS3 is broken.

As Farhenhiet's articles points out, there are many BR players that have a "neutral" signal. I could trash the PS3, buy one of those "neutral" BR and calibrate once for all....

Your thoughts?
post #56 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by blutarsky View Post

I would use a "neutral" generator to obtaining general purpose settings (for example for the sat receiver, as a starting base) and do another calibration for the BR.... at the moment my PS3 is broken.

As Farhenhiet's articles points out, there are many BR players that have a "neutral" signal. I could trash the PS3, buy one of those "neutral" BR and calibrate once for all....

Your thoughts?

The PS3 has a neutral signal, as would the Oppo players, or the Panasonic x10 series of players. Any of those models would be recommended by us, and are what most of us run in our systems. If your PS3 is configured correctly (Superwhite On, RGB Limited selected) then your calibration with it versus the Oppo or Panasonic would show no difference. The only possible variable I can come up with is if your display does something very strange with YCbCr 422 content, as the PS3 only does 444 and RGB.

So PS3, Oppo, Panasonic, if setup correctly, will all spit out the exact same thing over HDMI, which we've verified.
post #57 of 69
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smackrabbit View Post

The PS3 has a neutral signal

According to this thread contents, it doesn't :-/

See this
post #58 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by blutarsky View Post

According to this thread contents, it doesn't :-/

See this

Who Tells you that the WD is accurate ? Because the greyscale results is more linear doesn't mean that it's more accurate. You have to compare with a reference to see that.

BTW Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity used a Quantum Data ~6.000$ HDMI Analyser Instrument to tell us that PS3 is accurate with the correct output settings.
post #59 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by blutarsky View Post

According to this thread contents, it doesn't :-/

See this

All that shows is that the display wasn't calibrated for the PS3.
post #60 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by blutarsky View Post

According to this thread contents, it doesn't :-/

See this

I've got the HDMI analysis to show that the PS3 is correct. I haven't tested the WD so I can't comment on that. I also think the QuantumData runs closer to $16,000 but I didn't write that check.
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