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How can I get my bass balanced?

post #1 of 20
11/29/11 at 7:04pm
Thread Starter 
I had some time off for the past few days so I decided to play around with my subs. I have 2 Klipsch RW-12 Ds and two PL-200s. I was not using the PL-200s for a while so I decided to blend them into my system. I have the Klipsch subs up front and the PL-200s in the rear of the room. I use an SMS-1 to even out the bass. I put the mic in my main seating position and used the parametric equalizer to remove the reaks and bring up a dip in ther lower range. I have a good clean flat response from the back row where I sit but when I moved the mic to the front row of seats, there is a big peak around 23hz and some dips from the 40 to 60 hz range. I adjusted the phase on the Klipsch subs in the front and it helped a little with the dips but not that much. Plus the spike at 23hz is still there. If I adjust the phase on the Klipsch to high it messes up my response with the back row. I have done everything I can do with the controls on both subs and in the SMS-1. The only thing I have not done is move the subs out of there current positions. I know Velodyne has a 5 microphone kit to go with the SMS-1 but I don't want to invest in that if I don't need to. Is there anything I can do to get more balance so people sitting in the front row on movie night are getting the same amount of bass as the back row?
The room is about 2400 cu. ft.
Attachment 229275
my Klipschs up front
Attachment 229276
my PL-200s in the rear
Attachment 229277
my seating area
Attachment 229278
back row response
Attachment 229281
front row response
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post #2 of 20
11/30/11 at 2:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by capricorn kid View Post

The only thing I have not done is move the subs out of there current positions.


I'd start there.

Check this out,...it's a well done, well illustrated paper on getting good bass in rooms by Toole. It will help significantly.


Good luck
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post #3 of 20
11/30/11 at 3:12pm
Thread Starter 
I think I read most of this info a long time ago.....I need to read it in full this time. Thanks
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post #4 of 20
11/30/11 at 3:52pm
Unfortunately, you are never going to get the two rows to sound the same. It's impossible because the acoustic conditions are so different. The proximity of the seats in the back row to the back wall makes it impossible. If you fix one area buy eq'ing, it will affect the other area, and typically not in a good way. You can either optimize one area or the other, or kind of compromise and split the difference. Personally, I'd optimize the front row and simply accept that the back row will be less than perfect.
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post #5 of 20
11/30/11 at 4:12pm
Thread Starter 
That is about along the lines I was thinking but my main seat is the middle seat of the second row. That is where I eq'd the subs from. If you look at the response in the picture I posted of the front row, it was worse than that before I changed the phase on the front two Klipsch subs. It does not sound bad at the first row just not as good as the back. If I change the phase anymore it begins to affect the response at the back seats.
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post #6 of 20
11/30/11 at 4:27pm
Eq mainly for your own sweet spot since it's likely you will be doing the most listening and will be the most critical listener as well. Even eq systems like Audyssey attempt to improve several areas simultaneously, but are nevertheless weighted toward the primary viewing seat where the first set of several measurements are taken.
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post #7 of 20
12/1/11 at 11:06am
Have you tried putting a subwoofer at the center of each wall? Like the Klipsch on the front and rear and the PLs on the sides, centered?

Also is bass traps in the corners and option? I've had great success with superchunk style in the corners. Helps mostly in the midbass area, 60-100hr range.
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post #8 of 20
12/1/11 at 11:48am
How far away from the wall are the PL-200s? They look really close in that picture. I would try to keep 1-2 feet of space between them and the rear wall as they are rear ported. They need room to breath.

Also as gtpsuper24 mentioned you could try 1 sub in the middle of each of the 4 walls. Or you could give this a try. Keep the subs in the same place they are now but set them up like this. Front left sub Klipsch, Front right sub PL-200, Rear left sub PL-200, and Rear right sub Klipsch.
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post #9 of 20
12/1/11 at 1:46pm
You need the Bass Balancer 9000.
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post #10 of 20
12/1/11 at 2:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by capricorn kid View Post

That is about along the lines I was thinking but my main seat is the middle seat of the second row. That is where I eq'd the subs from. If you look at the response in the picture I posted of the front row, it was worse than that before I changed the phase on the front two Klipsch subs. It does not sound bad at the first row just not as good as the back. If I change the phase anymore it begins to affect the response at the back seats.

I'm curious as to how much is cause by 2 different subs.
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post #11 of 20
12/1/11 at 3:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

You need the Bass Balancer 9000.

how about the Super Bass-o-Matic?






Oh, wrong kinda bass . . .

Never mind
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post #12 of 20
12/1/11 at 3:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sputter1 View Post

I'm curious as to how much is cause by 2 different subs.

Probably unanswerable. But my guess is relatively little. Looks like room effects to me. If you followed the sub shootout several months ago, it was clear that room effects dominated in room frequency response very strongly, making all the subs look more alike than different . . .
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post #13 of 20
12/1/11 at 4:41pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

Have you tried putting a subwoofer at the center of each wall? Like the Klipsch on the front and rear and the PLs on the sides, centered?

Also is bass traps in the corners and option? I've had great success with superchunk style in the corners. Helps mostly in the midbass area, 60-100hr range.

Placing them in the mid position of each wall is not an option for the sides. Doing this will place both subs in the path of getting to the back of the room.
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post #14 of 20
12/1/11 at 4:43pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by flickhtguru View Post

How far away from the wall are the PL-200s? They look really close in that picture. I would try to keep 1-2 feet of space between them and the rear wall as they are rear ported. They need room to breath.

Also as gtpsuper24 mentioned you could try 1 sub in the middle of each of the 4 walls. Or you could give this a try. Keep the subs in the same place they are now but set them up like this. Front left sub Klipsch, Front right sub PL-200, Rear left sub PL-200, and Rear right sub Klipsch.

The PL-200s are 6 inches from the wall.
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post #15 of 20
12/1/11 at 4:45pm
Thread Starter 
I have not thought about mixing the subs, having one Klipsch and one PL-200 up front and the same set up in the back. I might try that to see what happens.
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post #16 of 20
12/1/11 at 4:54pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by flickhtguru View Post

How far away from the wall are the PL-200s? They look really close in that picture. I would try to keep 1-2 feet of space between them and the rear wall as they are rear ported. They need room to breath.

Also as gtpsuper24 mentioned you could try 1 sub in the middle of each of the 4 walls. Or you could give this a try. Keep the subs in the same place they are now but set them up like this. Front left sub Klipsch, Front right sub PL-200, Rear left sub PL-200, and Rear right sub Klipsch.

Also, I have tried it with the PL-200 subs turned the opposite way with the ports facing out and the woofer facing the wall. The results were exactly the same. I read on the HSU web site that a rear ported sub should have at least 3 to 4 inches of space behind it that there is no need for more than that.
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post #17 of 20
12/1/11 at 5:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

Probably unanswerable. But my guess is relatively little. Looks like room effects to me. If you followed the sub shootout several months ago, it was clear that room effects dominated in room frequency response very strongly, making all the subs look more alike than different . . .

You mean like this;



Pretty clear illustration, .....it's all about the room.
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post #18 of 20
12/1/11 at 6:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

You mean like this;

Pretty clear illustration, .....it's all about the room.

Wow! That's cool! Very nice.
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post #19 of 20
12/1/11 at 6:18pm
It's hard to tell from pics but looks like your front row is close to middle I room which is one of the worst spots in a room for room anomalies.

if you have the room try moving the seating back a couple feet and split that sweet spot between the two rows of seating and use EQ to fine tune.

Are all your subs ported? Mixing ported and sealed can be a nightmare.

Subs front and back is not always the answer for every room. Mine for example had horrible response with subs front and back but flattened out with two outside screen and one in back corner. Maybe collocate them and stack up front right and left?
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post #20 of 20
12/1/11 at 7:24pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

It's hard to tell from pics but looks like your front row is close to middle I room which is one of the worst spots in a room for room anomalies.

if you have the room try moving the seating back a couple feet and split that sweet spot between the two rows of seating and use EQ to fine tune.

Are all your subs ported? Mixing ported and sealed can be a nightmare.

Subs front and back is not always the answer for every room. Mine for example had horrible response with subs front and back but flattened out with two outside screen and one in back corner. Maybe collocate them and stack up front right and left?

As many things as I read on this forum I should have figures it out myself. You are 100% correct. My first row of seats are EXACTLY at the mid point of the room. ( 11'6" ) The room is 23' long. In the next few days I will see how far back or up I need to move the front seats. Moving it back will be a challenge because the riser I built is very heavy. Thanks...
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