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Input Lag: A Scientific Experiment (Epson 8350, 3010, 5010 & more) - Page 7

post #181 of 329
1/23/12 at 2:19pm
Actually, to be more precise, the video signal path is:

1) XBox
2) Monoprice 4:2 matrix HDMI switch
3) Sony HT-CT550W receiver (split for audio here)
4) Monoprice 4:1 HDMI switch
5) Epson 8345 projector

The reason for the matrix switch (step 2) is because I've got more HDMI inputs (PS3, 360, PC, cable) than the Sony receiver has HDMI inputs (3), and also because the matrix switch lets me display on my Dell U2711 LCD monitor as desired.

The reason for the second switch (step 4) is because I need a 25+ foot long HDMI cable, but the best I have at the moments is two 10 foot cables; that switch is acting as an extender :P

If you want, when I get home tonight I can do the RB3 video calibration test with the 360 directly connected to the projector with absolutely nothing in between.

In my case, though, particularly for rhythm games, it's better to have ~40ms video and ~40ms audio lag, rather than ~20ms video and ~20ms audio. The fact that they're both almost the same is desirable. After doing that benchmark, I went and beat a bunch of my high scores in the game, despite having not touched the guitar in months, so I'd say that either the projector lag is A-OK, or Rockband's latency compensation works well
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post #182 of 329
1/23/12 at 3:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guspaz View Post

In my case, though, particularly for rhythm games, it's better to have ~40ms video and ~40ms audio lag, rather than ~20ms video and ~20ms audio. The fact that they're both almost the same is desirable. After doing that benchmark, I went and beat a bunch of my high scores in the game, despite having not touched the guitar in months, so I'd say that either the projector lag is A-OK, or Rockband's latency compensation works well

Rock Band's latency compensation works that well.
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post #183 of 329
1/23/12 at 5:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guspaz View Post

Actually, to be more precise, the video signal path is:

1) XBox
2) Monoprice 4:2 matrix HDMI switch
3) Sony HT-CT550W receiver (split for audio here)
4) Monoprice 4:1 HDMI switch
5) Epson 8345 projector

The reason for the matrix switch (step 2) is because I've got more HDMI inputs (PS3, 360, PC, cable) than the Sony receiver has HDMI inputs (3), and also because the matrix switch lets me display on my Dell U2711 LCD monitor as desired.

The reason for the second switch (step 4) is because I need a 25+ foot long HDMI cable, but the best I have at the moments is two 10 foot cables; that switch is acting as an extender :P

If you want, when I get home tonight I can do the RB3 video calibration test with the 360 directly connected to the projector with absolutely nothing in between.

In my case, though, particularly for rhythm games, it's better to have ~40ms video and ~40ms audio lag, rather than ~20ms video and ~20ms audio. The fact that they're both almost the same is desirable. After doing that benchmark, I went and beat a bunch of my high scores in the game, despite having not touched the guitar in months, so I'd say that either the projector lag is A-OK, or Rockband's latency compensation works well

I'm interested to see how this turns out. I'd be curious to see how much lag the switch(es) introduce into the loop
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post #184 of 329
1/24/12 at 7:09am
Ran out of time last night, will try again tonight.
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post #185 of 329
1/24/12 at 7:59am
AVSers,

I have read every post on this thread and decided to call epson and ask them about a potential firmware update to solve this issue. I explained to the rep I talked to that it is well documented about the 3010,5010,6010 input lag issues. She said she was not aware of the problem. I then asked if they were going to release any type of firmware updates in the near future. She said if they were going to it would be in the next couple of months but, she couldn't say for sure. Sounded like she was just speculating to me. I really want a 5010 but, guess I will hold off for a few months and see how this plays out.

Andy
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post #186 of 329
1/24/12 at 9:51pm
I went ahead and bought a 5010. I can use 4hours of bulb life and still return for full refund. I will use this time specificaly to see this lag for myself. I am sure the lag is there, I just want to see how bad it is going to be in my system. I will report back with my observations.

Andy
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post #187 of 329
1/25/12 at 7:32am
I tested the latency last night, identical between directly connected to the xbox or going through the two switches and home theatre; 42ms. I suspect we're seeing the minimum latency path for the xbox here, since rockband can definitely measure latency down to a 1 or 2 millisecond margin of error above that point.
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post #188 of 329
1/25/12 at 11:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by falafala View Post

so yesterday i got the famous 1 ft HDMI cable and i felt it was faster than my 50ft cable. I tried the Infanous 2 again and i saw absolutely no lag and the game was smooth. I am not sure I am just experiencing a placebo effect though

Alright, I'm toying with the idea of picking up a 3010 just to test this again. Yes, I am that desperate.

Falafala, can you tell me exactly where you bought exactly which OFSO? I'd hate to do the test and then get told that I used the wrong 1 ft cable.
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post #189 of 329
1/25/12 at 12:32pm
Definitely the placebo effect. Light can travel almost a million feet in a single millisecond, and electricity moves almost as fast through copper. Your extra 49 feet of cable would make no difference.
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post #190 of 329
1/25/12 at 12:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guspaz View Post

Definitely the placebo effect. Light can travel almost a million feet in a single millisecond, and electricity moves almost as fast through copper. Your extra 49 feet of cable would make no difference.

Perhaps. I know all of the things we do know say it shouldn't work... but what about all of the things we don't know?

This is AV Science, after all... not AV The Earth is Flat, I don't care what evidence you might have brough back otherwise.
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post #191 of 329
1/25/12 at 12:59pm
Hilarious. Just watch - Epson built-in a cable length tester, and if it detects a cable less than 3 feet long, it turns off all the processing and stops the lag.
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post #192 of 329
1/25/12 at 1:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by xhonzi View Post

Perhaps. I know all of the things we do know say it shouldn't work... but what about all of the things we don't know?

This is AV Science, after all... not AV The Earth is Flat, I don't care what evidence you might have brough back otherwise.

I'm not sure how that's relevant; what we do know says there's nothing we don't know about how long electricity is going to take to go down an HDMI cable. As far as the projector's HDMI chipset is concerned, the only difference would be the attenuation...

If you want to prove it, the 3010's latency should be well over the ~42ms minimum latency that RockBand 3 can measure.
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post #193 of 329
1/25/12 at 2:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by xhonzi View Post

Alright, I'm toying with the idea of picking up a 3010 just to test this again. Yes, I am that desperate.

Falafala, can you tell me exactly where you bought exactly which OFSO? I'd hate to do the test and then get told that I used the wrong 1 ft cable.

DONT DO IT ! people will blame me for sending you on a wild goose chase

if you can wait for another week let me do basic laptop to PJ lag test with 1ft and longer cables....i may have found access to a laptop with HDMI
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post #194 of 329
1/25/12 at 2:45pm
FWIW, when I calibrate lag on my ps3 with guitar hero I am getting video lag of about 20ms. The audio is about 40-50 ms.
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post #195 of 329
1/25/12 at 3:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by stepyourgameup View Post

FWIW, when I calibrate lag on my ps3 with guitar hero I am getting video lag of about 20ms. The audio is about 40-50 ms.

That's probably a 360-versus-ps3 difference then. The controllers are both 2.4GHz, but the PS3s are, IIRC, pure bluetooth, while the 360's are something proprietary. Perhaps the 360's method has more latency.

I've got a PS3, but unfortunately I don't have RB3 for it, nor do I know anybody who has RB3 for the PS3
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post #196 of 329
1/25/12 at 4:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guspaz View Post

If you want to prove it, the 3010's latency should be well over the ~42ms minimum latency that RockBand 3 can measure.

Huh? Where are you getting 42ms for the 3010? RB3 measured 108 ms delay on my 3010 (that's no longer mine). I thought you said you had 42 ms for your 8345.
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post #197 of 329
1/25/12 at 4:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by stepyourgameup View Post

FWIW, when I calibrate lag on my ps3 with guitar hero I am getting video lag of about 20ms. The audio is about 40-50 ms.

What projector? And Guitar Hero is a manual calibration, right? If so, it's less objective than Rock Band with an auto cablibration.
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post #198 of 329
1/25/12 at 7:31pm
Some bad news for those of us holding onto hope for an Epson firmware update. Here's an email I got back from Epson today.


Thank you for contacting Epson support.

At the moment we do not have a firmware update that addresses a slight lag that is only noticeable when gaming. We have been in contact with our engineers to see if anything can be done to reduce or eliminate any lag, but at this point we have been given no indication that a firmware fix is on the way any time soon or if one is even possible.

Regards,

Richard M.

Not good news at all. I was really hoping they would have been more proactive to find a fix for this, I know they would take a lot of sales away from the Panasonic. The input lag may be a deal breaker for me. Damn.
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post #199 of 329
1/25/12 at 7:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by xhonzi View Post

What projector? And Guitar Hero is a manual calibration, right? If so, it's less objective than Rock Band with an auto cablibration.

Sorry I forgot to mention that. 8700UB.
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post #200 of 329
1/26/12 at 7:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by xhonzi View Post

Huh? Where are you getting 42ms for the 3010? RB3 measured 108 ms delay on my 3010 (that's no longer mine). I thought you said you had 42 ms for your 8345.

No, I mean that Rock Band 3 on the XBox 360 seems to have a base latency of 42ms, under which it can't measure anything. Anything over 42ms it can measure, but roughly 42ms is the lowest it will ever report.

The PS3 version seems to have a lower latency path, if you have that version.
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post #201 of 329
1/26/12 at 10:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guspaz View Post

No, I mean that Rock Band 3 on the XBox 360 seems to have a base latency of 42ms, under which it can't measure anything. Anything over 42ms it can measure, but roughly 42ms is the lowest it will ever report.

That's not true either. My current PJ (Panny AE500) reports 40 ms and my father's Sanyo z2000 reports 22ms. Both of these are with RB3 on Xbox 360.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guspaz View Post

The PS3 version seems to have a lower latency path, if you have that version.

Are you basing that off of stepyourgameup's experience with Guitar Hero on his 8700UB?
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post #202 of 329
1/26/12 at 10:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by xhonzi View Post

That's not true either. My current PJ (Panny AE500) reports 40 ms and my father's Sanyo z2000 reports 22ms. Both of these are with RB3 on Xbox 360.



Are you basing that off of stepyourgameup's experience with Guitar Hero on his 8700UB?

Yeah, I think I misread and misunderstood his post. The confusing thing is that others reported much lower than 42ms for the 8350. Unless the 8345 has higher latency, which it shouldn't, since it seems to basically be the same projector.

If 42ms is the accurate measurement, though, it also means that I'm seeing no additional latency from the soundbar receiver and two HDMI switches my signal goes through, which is nice.
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post #203 of 329
1/26/12 at 10:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyPrice44 View Post

AVSers,

I have read every post on this thread and decided to call epson and ask them about a potential firmware update to solve this issue. I explained to the rep I talked to that it is well documented about the 3010,5010,6010 input lag issues. She said she was not aware of the problem. I then asked if they were going to release any type of firmware updates in the near future. She said if they were going to it would be in the next couple of months but, she couldn't say for sure. Sounded like she was just speculating to me. I really want a 5010 but, guess I will hold off for a few months and see how this plays out.

Andy

You were most likely speaking with a level 1 CS person, who knows virtually nothing about the projector and use a flowchart for troubleshooting.

If they put you on hold for several minutes, then may be, they went and asked a level 2/3 CS to see if they know. This would still be speculation.

Unless there is a huge uproar (large % of complaints) about the lag, I doubt Epson is going have their engineers spend time to satisfy probably around 1% of their base or complaints.
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post #204 of 329
1/26/12 at 5:55pm
The "lag" issue affects a VERY small number of users specifically devoted to SERIOUS online FPS competitive gaming (which is an extremely small niche). Probably affects less than 1 tenth of 1 percent of projector owners. Epson will not do anything about it, guaranteed. Those who fall in that niche should find a different projector. Everyone else (99.9%) will be just fine with the Epson the way it is.
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post #205 of 329
1/26/12 at 8:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by stepyourgameup View Post


Sorry I forgot to mention that. 8700UB.

Do you game online any? What's your experience with the 8700ub with games? Now I've seen numbers between yours and as high as 50s.
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post #206 of 329
1/26/12 at 9:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ka[]e[] View Post

Do you game online any? What's your experience with the 8700ub with games? Now I've seen numbers between yours and as high as 50s.

The only game I have played online so far is NBA Jam On Fire Edition. It kinda feels laggy but I get the same response when I play it on my 42" Vizio LCD so I think it has more to do with my internet speed.

I have played a few games now since I got my 8700 hooked up and I am currently playing Gears of War 3 (XBOX 360), and Resistance 3 on PS3. I don't really feel much lag at all playing the story mode. When I game I have the FI set to low and the auto iris turned off, not that it matters anyway. Also, with Guitar Hero I have done the calibration many times with many different versions, Metallica, Van Halen, Warriors of Rock, etc. and it always comes in at about 20ms give or take.
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post #207 of 329
1/26/12 at 11:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ricwhite View Post

The "lag" issue affects a VERY small number of users specifically devoted to SERIOUS online FPS competitive gaming (which is an extremely small niche). Probably affects less than 1 tenth of 1 percent of projector owners. Epson will not do anything about it, guaranteed. Those who fall in that niche should find a different projector. Everyone else (99.9%) will be just fine with the Epson the way it is.

Your assumptions about impacts to gamers, and number of gamers impacted, I believe are way off base.

I've repeatedly stated that the majority of gaming users will not be bothered much by the lag, but 99.9%??? That's ridiculous. This issue affects not just FPS games, but any game requiring precise response. That includes platforming, racing, action, fps, etc.etc.etc.- all are impacted. For many the impact is still tolerable, but that certainly doesn't mean unnoticeable. FPS - especially online ones - highlights the problem, since your response times are directly pitted against other human players - but the impacts are everywhere. And face it- this projector has, honestly, one of the worst measured lag specs out there.

Honestly, I'd guess at least 1 in 10 people who game on this projector will notice it. I think the commentary on this forum bears that out as a conservative estimate.

And keep in mind when I say this, I love this projector and it will stay in my room for quite some time -- but I most certainly notice it.
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post #208 of 329
1/27/12 at 5:42am
Just to skew some imaginary numbers, every single one of my friends knows what input lag is and goes out of their way to buy equipment that is tested and benchmarked for good results. In fact, everything else stops existing. It's definitely not that uncommon - here's an Internet thread about it, and there's been many threads chomping at the bit for results on these Epsons before they were widely available.

Someone cares. Someone's buying other units right now. I'm sure Epson might not care, but they are making less money than they could because they are lazy, and that's the bottom line.
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post #209 of 329
1/27/12 at 6:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ricwhite View Post

The "lag" issue affects a VERY small number of users specifically devoted to SERIOUS online FPS competitive gaming (which is an extremely small niche). Probably affects less than 1 tenth of 1 percent of projector owners. Epson will not do anything about it, guaranteed. Those who fall in that niche should find a different projector. Everyone else (99.9%) will be just fine with the Epson the way it is.

I'm not sure about this...I've seen quite a few people on this forum in multiple threads having lengthy discussions about it. I doubt that people only on THIS site are the only ones who are concerned.

I do know this much. For the people it does matter to, it's an absolute deal breaker. It kills me that I can't get the 3010 or 5010 because of the latency issues.

It probably wouldn't be a bad idea to poll this site just to see how many users are "affected".
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post #210 of 329
1/27/12 at 7:44am
Both of the highest rated reviews for the 3010, the "good" one and the "bad" one, on Amazon mention the lag. It has to be affecting sales to some degree.

http://www.amazon.com/Epson-PowerLit...DateDescending
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