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Input Lag: A Scientific Experiment (Epson 8350, 3010, 5010 & more) - Page 2

post #31 of 330
Looking like the 7000, then.

I can't post links yet (long time lurker here), but here's a good indication of what 80ms lag is like:

w w w.themolehole.eclipse.co.uk/mouselaggn6.swf
post #32 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by vincentfox View Post

I contacted Epson early on about my 3010 input lag, and was told

"It is working as designed".

The 3010 doesn't even DO the CFI stuff. I'm directly hooked up by HDMI from a PC running it 1080@60Hz. Turned off dynamic iris and noise reduction. AFAICT this should not be a situation where there's additional massaging of the image going on.

So what else could going on in there "by design" leading to this delay?

When they designed it and the engineering specs stated: "Latency must be less than 200ms", they have achieved their specifications.

The gaming crowd is not their biggest audience for these projectors even though they mention gaming on their website.
post #33 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by vincentfox View Post

I contacted Epson early on about my 3010 input lag, and was told

"It is working as designed".

The 3010 doesn't even DO the CFI stuff. I'm directly hooked up by HDMI from a PC running it 1080@60Hz. Turned off dynamic iris and noise reduction. AFAICT this should not be a situation where there's additional massaging of the image going on.

So what else could going on in there "by design" leading to this delay?

My wallet is working as designed as well... off to the Benq w7000.
post #34 of 330
as having an 8500ub seeing the 3010 and 5010 lag is just like....
post #35 of 330
I just got my Sony HW20 last night. Gamed on it all night, lots of 2D stuff. It's absolutely amazing for input lag. Epson, you just lost another customer! I don't have the CRT means to give it a scientific test, but damn it's good. The motion handling of Sony's LCoS is superior to LCD. I feel ashamed that I didn't go this route sooner!
post #36 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by kthejoker20 View Post

My wallet is working as designed as well... off to the Benq w7000.

Are there any numbers on the lag for the benq w7000? I haven't been able to find any, although I've seen many make the decision to go to it for its minimal lag.
post #37 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by ka[]e[] View Post

Are there any numbers on the lag for the benq w7000? I haven't been able to find any, although I've seen many make the decision to go to it for its minimal lag.

The W7000 hasn't hit the streets yet.
Considering it's a DLP, the lag should be minimal.

If RBE reports are good(meaning no RBE), it will be a great projector if the PQ looks anything like the W6000.
post #38 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by tommyv2 View Post

I just got my Sony HW20 last night. Gamed on it all night, lots of 2D stuff. It's absolutely amazing for input lag. Epson, you just lost another customer! I don't have the CRT means to give it a scientific test, but damn it's good. The motion handling of Sony's LCoS is superior to LCD. I feel ashamed that I didn't go this route sooner!

Did you mean hw30?

... Altan
post #39 of 330
Nope, I mean the HW20. Not interested in 3D at this time, and the price difference between the two is steep!

The input lag on the HW20 put a dumb grin on my face. Satisfied doesn't begin to describe it. I can't actually find a single flaw on this projector - low lag, quiet, no overscan, lens shift, no motion blur, manual convergence alignment, bright, manual screen border cropping, great remote, silent iris, deep blacks, blah blah blah.
post #40 of 330
I thought defiancecp said that the HD33 was 30 ms faster than the 3010, but I guess I'm remembering incorrectly.

Also:
Quote:
Originally Posted by xhonzi View Post

http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/mon...of-overdrive/1

As far as I understand this article... the "Overdriven" LCD panels that make time travel... er... fast LCD response times (and therefore 3D) possible are to blame for the high input lag. It looks like NEC might have a solution, though... whatever it is.

The bad news is that this is probably what we can come to expect from 3D LCD Projectors. The good news is that it only really affects gaming. The better news: there's always DLP. The worst news: unless you're as RBE sensitive as me.

sad face

Quote:
Originally Posted by charliefaber View Post

UPDATE!: I got around to calling customer support about the latency issue when console gaming, and I had a bit more luck than others who have tried to contact Epson about it. I had to force my way past several customer service associates who tried to tell me to try a different HDMI cable or game console, but I finally got high enough in the ranks that I got to talk to someone who actually knew what they were talking about.
They assured me that they are very aware of the problem and are working to fix it as quickly as possible through a firmware update. They didn't have any sort of estimate or details on a release, but they promised a fix and would contact me with any information that came up.
If Epson comes through with this, I will be a very happy camper.
post #41 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by vullcan View Post

-----------
Epson 3010 - Constant 100ms lag

Vullcan,
What do you think? Do you think that all 3010s lag the same, or did you and I get some laggy lemons? Hows the ghosting and the iris noise on your 3010?
post #42 of 330
Based on epson's responses to questions about lag, I'd assume it's a universal thing- and thus far, while some users that have been unable to notice the lag in subjective playing, not one objective *test* has seen less than 60 (at least not that I've seen).

Also, one quick clarification - at this point I think it's pretty likely that my comparison had a slow monitor, and the lag of 60ms I measured was understated, and I never tested the hd33 in my configuration. Therefore it's not really proven that the hd33 has 30ms less - it's likely that the difference is more than 30ms (but on the other hand it's also possible that the comparison monitors used in the hd33 testing were even slower).

Point being, it's a good starting point to assume the hd33 is at least 30ms faster - I just wouldn't use the word "proven" until they're both tested vs. a CRT from the same system
post #43 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by defiancecp View Post

Based on epson's responses to questions about lag, I'd assume it's a universal thing- and thus far, while some users that have been unable to notice the lag in subjective playing, not one objective *test* has seen less than 60 (at least not that I've seen).

Also, one quick clarification - at this point I think it's pretty likely that my comparison had a slow monitor, and the lag of 60ms I measured was understated, and I never tested the hd33 in my configuration. Therefore it's not really proven that the hd33 has 30ms less - it's likely that the difference is more than 30ms (but on the other hand it's also possible that the comparison monitors used in the hd33 testing were even slower).

Point being, it's a good starting point to assume the hd33 is at least 30ms faster - I just wouldn't use the word "proven" until they're both tested vs. a CRT from the same system

My bad, I thought you had done the testing on both. I changed my post.

My question about the lemons- I'm sure that there's not a 100 ms version and a 20 ms verison, but I'd be happy (enough) with a 60 ms version, probably. I'm just wondering if some of the other issues which mine had might have gone along with some high lag. Unfortunately, I think only about 3 or 4 people have done any lag testing with the 3010 that could be considered "objective" at all, and there's not really enough clear data yet to create a set.
post #44 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by xhonzi View Post

My bad, I thought you had done the testing on both. I changed my post.

My question about the lemons- I'm sure that there's not a 100 ms version and a 20 ms verison, but I'd be happy (enough) with a 60 ms version, probably. I'm just wondering if some of the other issues which mine had might have gone along with some high lag. Unfortunately, I think only about 3 or 4 people have done any lag testing with the 3010 that could be considered "objective" at all, and there's not really enough clear data yet to create a set.

Also keep in mind that some are not going direct from source to projector.
They are going from source to AV receiver to projector or maybe even more components in between.

When you have lag issues, first thing to do is go direct from source to projector to see if the lag is reduced.
post #45 of 330
Question about lag... you guys keep referring to this as a 'gaming only' issue. Wouldn't this be ALSO an issue for regular movie watching, where the video would lag behind the audio? You'd essentially see people moving their lips *before* the speech audio came through. I would find that impossible to adjust to. I realize that many modern receivers have the ability to 'lip sync' audio, but just wanted to point this out.

Problem, or not?
post #46 of 330
Thread Starter 
Yes it is a problem but fortunately almost any AV receiver worth its salt has an option to delay the audio by however many ms you specify so once you know the lag you can compensate for it by making your audio lag too.
post #47 of 330
Just curious if you attempted using VGA connection lag testing? At least for Xbox 360 this is an option and it may greatly improve lag since usually there is little to no processing on that input. I just got 8700UB and I may give it a test.
post #48 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by gnolivos View Post

You'd essentially see people moving their lips *before* the speech audio came through.

Yep, except you have it backwards. The image will be delayed, so you'll hear it first and see it next.

And, as vullcan said, this is easily accounted for in most receivers.
post #49 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoyty View Post

Just curious if you attempted using VGA connection lag testing? At least for Xbox 360 this is an option and it may greatly improve lag since usually there is little to no processing on that input. I just got 8700UB and I may give it a test.

I used an Xbox VGA cable when I did my Rock Band 3 tests. It didn't change anything. I also tried component (and HDMI) and they were all the same.
post #50 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by gnolivos View Post

Question about lag... you guys keep referring to this as a 'gaming only' issue. Wouldn't this be ALSO an issue for regular movie watching, where the video would lag behind the audio?

That's easily corrected by delaying the audio to match. BUT a fast projector could actually be a problem. Most AVRs don't add any appreciable extra video delay, but some have 40ms or more *minimum* audio delay (for DSP processing). So the ultra low-lag display that some people want might not be any good when used with certain AVRs (no way to get the sound in sync with the video).
post #51 of 330
Minor audio latency isn't so bad - in fact, the human brain sort of expects it, being that the speed of sound is pretty slow and all that, and we're used to that synchronization disconnect. In fact, I wish movie and game directors would know that - an explosion far-off in the distance with simultaneous noise is so, so wrong!
post #52 of 330
Just purchased the epson tw6000 here in the uk. (3010)

Had it for demo at home, to test lag with xbox 360 due to the negative posts here and i don't see any what-so-ever!

I tested it with: Time Splitters (first person shooter), Ninja Gaiden 2 (fighting), Dead or Alive 4 (fighting) and Project Gotham Racing 3 (racing).

No matter how quick or slow a movement i make on the controller pad, it shows the same on screen. I compared the same scenes on several games between my Barco CRT projector, by unplugging and reconnecting the same Hdmi cable between projectors and no obvious difference.

I'm using out of box pj settings and connected straight from the console to the projector with a 15 ft Hdmi cable.

Why the different results from some users here? European models (pj/xbox)different?

Interesting! Am i looking at 'lag' wrongly?
post #53 of 330
It's not different results; no user that has ever tested it objectively has had less than 60ms (and the lowest results have always been tied to slower 'comparison' monitors, so the results above are the most accurate). The only differences have been in the subjective testing, and subjective testing is always going to depend on the user's perception of lag. Some users won't be able to pick out 60-80ms lag, some will. The objective tests show that it's there, though.
post #54 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by defiancecp View Post

It's not different results; no user that has ever tested it objectively has had less than 60ms (and the lowest results have always been tied to slower 'comparison' monitors, so the results above are the most accurate). The only differences have been in the subjective testing, and subjective testing is always going to depend on the user's perception of lag. Some users won't be able to pick out 60-80ms lag, some will. The objective tests show that it's there, though.

Though, dreameruk, we'd love to see you do some objective tests and let us know if your objectivity is any different. I'm still wondering if lag isn't the same across the board. But that might be skewed by my hoping that it's not the same.
post #55 of 330
some one posted edid data for one of the epsons and it had lag 130ms(if i remember right)-just what does it mean?epson tested?
post #56 of 330
I keep checking these 3010 threads hoping that someone will post that there's a fix for the lag. Come on, Epson! I want a 3010 (again) for Christmas!
post #57 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreameruk View Post

Just purchased the epson tw6000 here in the uk. (3010)

Had it for demo at home, to test lag with xbox 360 due to the negative posts here and i don't see any what-so-ever!

I tested it with: Time Splitters (first person shooter), Ninja Gaiden 2 (fighting), Dead or Alive 4 (fighting) and Project Gotham Racing 3 (racing).

No matter how quick or slow a movement i make on the controller pad, it shows the same on screen. I compared the same scenes on several games between my Barco CRT projector, by unplugging and reconnecting the same Hdmi cable between projectors and no obvious difference.

I'm using out of box pj settings and connected straight from the console to the projector with a 15 ft Hdmi cable.

Why the different results from some users here? European models (pj/xbox)different?

Interesting! Am i looking at 'lag' wrongly?

Well, for one, HDMI into a CRT may have lag. You are introducing a D-> A conversion there. Also, it is just a factor of perception - some people will see smaller deltas in lag than others do.
post #58 of 330
It seems then there is only one way to find out if you can see 'lag' on the Epson (or other) and that is to see it in operation yourself. If i was going by what people have been saying i would not have bought this projector and missed out on a very good value machine. I was expecting to be unable to play console games with this projector but have found the opposite to be true. There are some people that have been put off buying this pj by measurements taken by others but i think, from my experience, this is a mistake and you should only decide, as i did, from an actual demo yourself.

I play the xbox 360 on my JVC Dila tv also and do not see lag either.

I have other games here and will post any findings when i play them but for now i'm very happy with my 3D projector, for games and movies.

If there is lag into the CRT from Hdmi then it has to be so small that it is not perceivable to be of any distraction and it appears there is no difference between it and the Epson, which has to make it equal to CRT.

Also when i mentioned the issue of lag to the place who was selling the projector they thought it strange as they hadn't noticed any. Hence the reason for my demo.
post #59 of 330
Very interesting thread. I play a lot of guitar hero / rock band so input lag is essential to me. My current projector, the Panasonic ax100 is perfect in this regard and I have never noticed any lag when playing.

Seams the 8350 could be my new 1080p projector after reading this!

I, also, would love if someone had any values for the 8500? If it performs similar to the 8350 it would be my choice I think.

Anyone here how plays rhythm games on the 8500ub and don't have to calibrate the audio/video in-game, or have measured input lag values?

Update: I have read in other threads of input lag values between 45-75 ms for the 8500.
post #60 of 330
So I hear people talking about the Epson 8350 as having low lag. Is the 8700UB a close enough design that one could expect similar good response? Or is it a different animal altogether? I cannot find any data on 8700UB lag.
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