or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › HDTV › Local HDTV Info and Reception › Greensboro, NC - HDTV
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Greensboro, NC - HDTV - Page 359

post #10741 of 11118
Quote:
Originally Posted by tylerSC View Post

It was into the 80s in Charlotte before UHF Channel 36 increased power and was able to have a signal more equal to WBTV-3 and WSOC-9. They built a 2000ft tower and increased to 5 million watts. Prior to that UHF reception was bad. Folks watched WYFF-4, WIS-10, or WXII-12 for NBC instead. WCCB-18 had a better UHF signal, but decreased theirs because it reached all the way to Florence, SC. Also around 87, WJZY-46 signed on with a strong 5 million watt UHF signal and a 2000ft tower. Those Dallas towers today now provide strong UHF digital signals for WCNC, WJZY, and WBTV. Ironic now that UHF is working better for digital than VHF in the analog days.
In the mid-60's I watched WCCB when it was on channel 36 in Guilford County. Not great reception, but viewable. .
post #10742 of 11118
Quote:
Originally Posted by difuse View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by veedon View Post

There was a blurb in today's N&O about WNAO signing on in July of 1953 as Raleigh's first TV station, a CBS affiliate, on UHF channel 28.
That's four years after WFMY went on the air in Greensboro. WNAO didn't last long. It went off the air in 1957.

WNAO TV was the Triangle's first TV station. WNAO ( News and Observer) didn't have a chance. Few viewers had UHF tuners, or converters, and, unless one lived within a very few miles of a UHF transmitter in those days, the best one could hope for was sound and snow.. UHF receiver technology was primitive.
WNAO TV survived a couple of years up against WTVD, but shut down a year after WRAL lit-up.
There was a jump to get into TV in the 50's, but UHF failed, with few exceptions, until the FCC mandated UHF tuners in all sets in 1964.
WTOB TV (channel 26) in Winston Salem was another victim of UHF in the 50's.
There is probably no telling how many millions sank with UHF in the 50's, but it was plenty. I'm sure it was a lot more than was lost by TV stations that tried to go to color in the mid 50's, and found out almost nobody cared.

 

Why wasn't the N&O able to get a VHF channel assignment for WNAO?

Or was it cheaper to run a UHF transmitter?

 

Regarding color TV, wasn't there a false start in the very early 1950's when a system of color broadcasting was developed that would not have been backward compatible with existing B&W sets, so the FCC would not grant licenses to broadcast using that technology?

post #10743 of 11118
Quote:
Originally Posted by tylerSC View Post

WBTV in Charlotte was the first television station to sign on in the Carolinas on VHF Channel 3 in 1949. Originally owned by Jefferson-Pilot and to this day remains a long time CBS affiliate.

And WFMY Channel 2 in Greensboro is the second oldest station in the Carolinas, going on the air just a few short months after WBTV. It was also formerly owned by Jefferson-Pilot and has always been a CBS affiliate. And back in those early years, the Greensboro/High Point/Winston-Salem market was not much smaller than Charlotte. Of course, times do change especially since Charlotte has became the 'baby Atlanta' of the south while the Triad market has been more negatively impacted by the collapse of the textile and furniture markets.
post #10744 of 11118
Quote:
Originally Posted by veedon View Post

Why wasn't the N&O able to get a VHF channel assignment for WNAO?
Or was it cheaper to run a UHF transmitter?

Regarding color TV, wasn't there a false start in the very early 1950's when a system of color broadcasting was developed that would not have been backward compatible with existing B&W sets, so the FCC would not grant licenses to broadcast using that technology?
Everything tied together. The question of technical specs, mostly related to color, caused the FCC to suspend new construction for a period. And there was a large issue of assignment of channels, an issue that hasn't been settled yet. I don't know the details of channel assignment in the Triangle, but I cannot imagine UHF was first choice for the N and O. VHF assignments were rearranged to accommodate markets. The Triad, and Greenville-Washington-New Bern eventually got 3 VHF assignments and so did the Triangle, one being the University station. Charlotte never got but 2.
Water over the dam, now.
My reference to color was actually about the post 1954 era, after NTSC color was approved. There had been a LOT of hype about color for years. When standards compatible with monochrome were set, things looked good to go. The problem was that NTSC color was not really ready.. It was ok in a closed circuit, but suffered greatly being broadcast..
And, the sets were really expensive.
WFMY jumped in with a color slide-film chain in the mid-50's. then jumped back for 10 years. Sorta like UHF, color needed some time to get working..............
post #10745 of 11118
Actually, color had nothing to with the freeze in issuing construction permits for new TV stations in the late 40s and early 50s. It had to do with channel allocations.

When TV started in 1939, there were only 6 channels, 1-6. When TV restarted in 1946, channel 1 had been deleted in a political move by RCA to kill FM (the original FM band had been in the channel 1 region and the move to its current location guaranteed that all FM receivers would be obsolete and TV would have a chance for those relocation dollars, a move that kept FM as an also run well into the 70s) to give TV a chance to get started. (FCC records show NBC had a CP for channel 1, but it was never built, probably due to the fact that FM broadcasting was already there. CBS had a CP for channel 2 that they built and became WCBT/WCBS. NBC built on channel 3, but moved to channel 4 [which became WNBT/WRCA/WNBC] as WWII closed down TV for the duration. Dumont got channel 5 [WABD/WNEW/WNYW] and the new network, ABC received channel 7 (WERA/WABC], setting into motion the channel lineup in NYC that we know today.) TV went from channel 2-12 with channel 13 being added shortly thereafter in 1948 due to the demand for TV stations. Even with the addition of channel 13, it was clear there was not enough TV real estate so the FCC put a freeze on all new construction permits of TV stations until the FCC could work out a new channel plan that eventually became the now familiar 2-83 Table of Assignments for each community that was cut back in the 80s to 69 and then in 2009 to 51. The freeze was lifted in late 1951. In the beginning there were more UHF channels available in the Table than VHF. In the larger cities, those owners lobbied to have the Table changed to VHF assignments and over time, more and more stations were crammed into VHF, and only the poorer owners could get an assignment on UHF since they didn't have the money to fight the FCC for the lower channel allocations. Since it cost more to construct and operate UHF, those stations were limited in coverage and up until cable carriage, many failed in a short time frame.

CBS had a 625 line mechanical wheel system for color (called Sequential Color) that was not backwards compatible to NTSC, that the FCC tentatively approved in the late 1940's. RCA, the developer of NTSC, was working on an electronic color standard for NTSC, but was mired down in technical problems trying to make it backwards compatible. In 1952, RCA finally got it to work and demonstrated it to the FCC. With a lot of political push, David Sarnoff, chairman of RCA, got the FCC to reverse its earlier decision on color and to use the RCA NTSC color standard. On January 1st, 1954, NTSC color became the color standard for the USA. WNBT New York (now WNBC-TV) broadcast the first commercially broadcast NTSC color signal on December 20th, 1953 as a test in preparation for January 1st. On that New Years day, NBC did broadcast the Tournament of Roses Parade in "Living Color" over the NBC network. Those early adopters who had a color set, (which were very few) watched the parade in color. It was several years before there were any really scheduled color programming. NBC led the way, being owned by RCA but even then, it was years before NBC's schedule was predominately color (early 60's) with mostly specials and limited series programming in color. Bonanza, which started in 1959 was commissioned by NBC to be in color from the start to showcase color beyond specials. Star Trek, on NBC, in 1966 used abstract colors to to showcase color. That is why you see all the "out of this world" colors in the original series that you don't see in the other Star Trek series.

ABC and CBS were not in a big hurry to go color. ABC was financially not able to for years being the perennial last place until the 70s and CBS, having lost the color battle, refused to buy RCA color equipment, waiting until 3rd party manufacturers like Norelco came out with their equipment in the 60s. True story, in the early 60's, CBS had a contract to air a Fred Astaire special. It was shot at NBC in color on video tape in the 50s and since CBS had no color video tape machines, the special was fed live from NBC on their color video tape machine over a special video tie line to CBS and out on to the CBS network.

While the audience embraced color as a theory, those who had bought black and white TV's in the mid to late 50's were not in the mood to spend money for a new TV that cost twice to three times as much as their few year old black and whites (remember, the $100 color sets were at least 30 years down the road, TVs, black and white or color, were considered a luxury item in the 50s and 60s with black and whites starting in the $200 range in 1950s money!) with limited chances to view color programming (sound familiar?).

With limited programming and high receive equipment costs, it was into the early 70's until the last black and white programming disappeared and color sets began to out sell black and whites, even though the small portable TV's (13 inch and smaller) sold at the time were still black and white well into the 80's.

I know in my own family, we bought a 1955 Philco black and white TV and it was something my parents saved for waiting for the first TV station to come to our area before they bought it. In 1962, the NBC affiliate went color and my father started saving for a color set. In 1964, he bought a RCA color console. That set lasted until almost 1990 when the parts got too expensive to repair. My mother still has the cabinet as a nik-nak cabinet. The 1955 Philco lasted well into the 70's. My parents put it at their beach house and I watched Neil Armstrong walk on the moon on that TV. When it become too expensive to repair it was taken to the dump. My father had recently won a "RCA Portable" color TV. It was a "small" 19 inch that weight almost 100 pounds! That TV lasted until the 1990s.

Moral of the story is people didn't throw stuff away like they do today and that slowed overall acceptance of color receivers (and indirectly color broadcasts), even though the public wanted color broadcasts in a way that they didn't with HD, even though HD acceptance took only a 1/3 of the time of color due to the change in culture.
Edited by foxeng - 7/12/13 at 5:55am
post #10746 of 11118
Quote:
Originally Posted by foxeng View Post

Actually, color had nothing to with the freeze in issuing construction permits for new TV stations in the late 40s and early 50s. It had to do with channel allocations.

When TV started in 1939, there were only 6 channels, 1-6. When TV restarted in 1946, channel 1 had been deleted in a political move by RCA to kill FM (the original FM band had been in the channel 1 region and the move to its current location guaranteed that all FM receivers would be obsolete and TV would have a chance for those relocation dollars, a move that kept FM as an also run well into the 70s) to give TV a chance to get started. (FCC records show NBC had a CP for channel 1, but it was never built, probably due to the fact that FM broadcasting was already there. CBS had a CP for channel 2 that they built and became WCBT/WCBS. NBC built on channel 3, but moved to channel 4 [which became WNBT/WRCA/WNBC] as WWII closed down TV for the duration. Dumont got channel 5 [WABD/WNEW/WNYW] and the new network, ABC received channel 7 (WERA/WABC], setting into motion the channel lineup in NYC that we know today.) TV went from channel 2-12 with channel 13 being added shortly thereafter in 1948 due to the demand for TV stations. Even with the addition of channel 13, it was clear there was not enough TV real estate so the FCC put a freeze on all new construction permits of TV stations until the FCC could work out a new channel plan that eventually became the now familiar 2-83 Table of Assignments for each community that was cut back in the 80s to 69 and then in 2009 to 51. The freeze was lifted in late 1951. In the beginning there were more UHF channels available in the Table than VHF. In the larger cities, those owners lobbied to have the Table changed to VHF assignments and over time, more and more stations were crammed into VHF, and only the poorer owners could get an assignment on UHF since they didn't have the money to fight the FCC for the lower channel allocations. Since it cost more to construct and operate UHF, those stations were limited in coverage and up until cable carriage, many failed in a short time frame.

CBS had a 625 line mechanical wheel system for color (called Sequential Color) that was not backwards compatible to NTSC, that the FCC tentatively approved in the late 1940's. RCA, the developer of NTSC, was working on an electronic color standard for NTSC, but was mired down in technical problems trying to make it backwards compatible. In 1952, RCA finally got it to work and demonstrated it to the FCC. With a lot of political push, David Sarnoff, chairman of RCA, got the FCC to reverse its earlier decision on color and to use the RCA NTSC color standard. On January 1st, 1954, NTSC color became the color standard for the USA. WNBT New York (now WNBC-TV) broadcast the first commercially broadcast NTSC color signal on December 20th, 1953 as a test in preparation for January 1st. On that New Years day, NBC did broadcast the Tournament of Roses Parade in "Living Color" over the NBC network. Those early adopters who had a color set, (which were very few) watched the parade in color. It was several years before there were any really scheduled color programming. NBC led the way, being owned by RCA but even then, it was years before NBC's schedule was predominately color (early 60's) with mostly specials and limited series programming in color. Bonanza, which started in 1959 was commissioned by NBC to be in color from the start to showcase color beyond specials. Star Trek, on NBC, in 1966 used abstract colors to to showcase color. That is why you see all the "out of this world" colors in the original series that you don't see in the other Star Trek series.

ABC and CBS were not in a big hurry to go color. ABC was financially not able to for years being the perennial last place until the 70s and CBS, having lost the color battle, refused to buy RCA color equipment, waiting until 3rd party manufacturers like Norelco came out with their equipment in the 60s. True story, in the early 60's, CBS had a contract to air a Fred Astaire special. It was shot at NBC in color on video tape in the 50s and since CBS had no color video tape machines, the special was fed live from NBC on their color video tape machine over a special video tie line to CBS and out on to the CBS network.

While the audience embraced color as a theory, those who had bought black and white TV's in the mid to late 50's were not in the mood to spend money for a new TV that cost twice to three times as much as their few year old black and whites (remember, the $100 color sets were at least 30 years down the road, TVs, black and white or color, were considered a luxury item in the 50s and 60s with black and whites starting in the $200 range in 1950s money!) with limited chances to view color programming (sound familiar?).

With limited programming and high receive equipment costs, it was into the early 70's until the last black and white programming disappeared and color sets began to out sell black and whites, even though the small portable TV's (13 inch and smaller) sold at the time were still black and white well into the 80's.

I know in my own family, we bought a 1955 Philco black and white TV and it was something my parents saved for waiting for the first TV station to come to our area before they bought it. In 1962, the NBC affiliate went color and my father started saving for a color set. In 1964, he bought a RCA color console. That set lasted until almost 1990 when the parts got too expensive to repair. My mother still has the cabinet as a nik-nak cabinet. The 1955 Philco lasted well into the 70's. My parents put it at their beach house and I watched Neil Armstrong walk on the moon on that TV. When it become too expensive to repair it was taken to the dump. My father had recently won a "RCA Portable" color TV. It was a "small" 19 inch that weight almost 100 pounds! That TV lasted until the 1990s.

Moral of the story is people didn't throw stuff away like they do today and that slowed overall acceptance of color receivers (and indirectly color broadcasts), even though the public wanted color broadcasts in a way that they didn't with HD, even though HD acceptance took only a 1/3 of the time of color due to the change in culture.

I appreciate your thoughts here. I would suggest it was CBS's muddying the waters that caused the extended "freeze" , rather than it being a temporary stop to licenses to establish a table of allocation.. Toward the end of WW2, CBS proposed a UHF TV color protocol with 16 MHZ channels. The FCC, probably acting on "orders" from General Sarnoff, declined the offer. RCA, not interested in either color or UHF, did knee-jerk into research on both, just in case a future FCC failed to take "orders". That not only began the major battles of the "Color War", but turned up work on UHF TV. RCA had its own agenda, which did not include anything not belonging to RCA. RCA did get conventional black and White set production cranked up, a major goal. Meantime, CBS determined to go VHF with color.. RCA and several other manufacturers were throwing monochrome receivers off the shelves. Demand for television, Black and White television, boomed. But the issue of channel allocation had to be addressed. Who was going to get what channels. A temporary halt to new licenses went into effect.. Would UHF be the solution? CBS's 1944 proposal was the reason UHF was then an option. But, then, a disobedient FCC approved the 405 line VHF CBS color,. the consideration of which had deflected the issue of channel allocation. The FCC did not think much of UHF, but, if the manufacturers (RCA) could make it work, then OK. ( it would, after all, be theirs, not CBS'S). The "freeze" was lifted, CBS got no industry support for its color, the mostly RCA NTSC color system was established, and UHF licenses were issued..
Color and UHF crawled. The FCC was so sure of UHF, it created 6 channel "guard bands" to protect UHF stations from each other.. The technology, despite considerable research, was thought so loose that this protection was deemed needed. Relics of this existed until the DTV transition: Triangle: 16(Burlington) ... 22.....28... 40
Triad 14.. 20...26.
Charlotte: 18....30...36....42

..............................
a note about the Fred Astaire special. That program had been produced and broadcast by NBC several years earlier.. CBS had kept its hand in color TV for several years after NTSC Color was adopted, but eventually decided it was not worth the money. IIRC CBS actually broadcast the first NTSC Color program after official adoption, although NBC beat it technically with a color station ID. At any rate, the Fred Astaire special, which I recall was broadcast by CBS in 1964, required the NBC color VTR because none of the CBS color equipment had been used for years, and it was cheaper to pay NBC than to spend the resources getting their Ampex up to code for one special. But the story does indicate how impressed everybody but NBC-RCA was about spending money on color..
post #10747 of 11118
Quote:
Originally Posted by ejb1980 View Post

Hope this is helpful.

It was indeed. Thank you very much.
post #10748 of 11118

Interesting history, but I don't understand why the competition for VHF channel assignments in NYC would cause WNAO in Raleigh to choose a UHF frequency.

It doesn't sound as though a desire to do color broadcasting on UHF could have been a motivation as late as 1953, because by then it was already clear that color broadcasting on VHF would be approved.

 

Regarding longevity of sets, anyone want to take bets on the chances of a flat panel HDTV manufactured in 2013 still being in use in 2030?

post #10749 of 11118
Quote:
Originally Posted by veedon View Post

Interesting history, but I don't understand why the competition for VHF channel assignments in NYC would cause WNAO in Raleigh to choose a UHF frequency.

The FCC created a document called the "Table of Assignments." It was to alleviate the mess of the AM bands interference issues. FM and TV both have Table of Assignments even today, called "the Table". Using interference standards, channels were assigned to communities, later giving communities educational channels, even if they didn't use them. The idea was to use VHF for rural areas since the population was not dense and with VHF having greater coverage than UHF and to use UHF for the more dense urban areas that didn't require huge coverage areas. Of course, that is not what happened. The stations that were already on VHF channels stayed and new stations petitioned the FCC to change the table to substitute UHF channels with VHF channels, if the interference standards would allow it. That practice continues today and that is what we had to do when we changed channels from 8 to 35 after the DTV transition. We had to get the table changed for High Point from channel 8 to channel 35, then we could apply for the construction permit and then apply for the license.

Here is the last analog FCC table from 2009. Here is the URL if you are interested. Go to page 135 for the start of the table.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2009-title47-vol4/pdf/CFR-2009-title47-vol4-sec73-606.pdf

Here is the URL for the digital table. It starts on page 155. It looks like a pre-transition table with channels above 51 listed. There are not any listed above 51 in the current table.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2009-title47-vol4/pdf/CFR-2009-title47-vol4-sec73-622.pdf

The table for this area has changed many times over the years. I know at one time channel 16, was allocated to Mt Airy before it was reallocated to Burlington in the pre-DTV days. Of course there never was a channel 16 built in Mt Airy, but the allocation was there for several years if someone wanted to build a station.

I know there used to be a website that listed the old tables and you could see just how much moving around the channels have done since 1953. It is pretty amazing. I don't know if they are still available on the net.
Quote:
Regarding longevity of sets, anyone want to take bets on the chances of a flat panel HDTV manufactured in 2013 still being in use in 2030?

Not many will make it that long. Not like the old CRTs.
Edited by foxeng - 7/13/13 at 2:59pm
post #10750 of 11118
Definitely still out there. http://www.w9wi.com/articles/1952.html

- Trip
post #10751 of 11118
Quote:
Originally Posted by veedon View Post

Interesting history, but I don't understand why the competition for VHF channel assignments in NYC would cause WNAO in Raleigh to choose a UHF frequency.
It doesn't sound as though a desire to do color broadcasting on UHF could have been a motivation as late as 1953, because by then it was already clear that color broadcasting on VHF would be approved.

Regarding longevity of sets, anyone want to take bets on the chances of a flat panel HDTV manufactured in 2013 still being in use in 2030?

As best I know, UHF was all that was available to the News and Observer at the time.Channel 11 was assigned to Durham. VHF possibilities were probably matters of contention for a while /
Channels 4 and 5 were firm in NYC so, the next market area to get them down the coast was DC. Down the coast again, there was no obvious candidates, just candidates. assignment and reassignment went on for many years. It was almost a decade after this that channel 8 could be assigned to High Point..
The very fact there was UHF TV in 1953 was probably due to the CBS .initiative years earlier. While NBC-RCA tended to sneer at CBS, those folks were not going to surrender anything. RCA began research in UHF TV, even though it was not corporately interested. RCA-NBC wanted nothing but every person in the US watch one NBC affiliate on their RCA TV sets. UHF wasn't needed for that.. But if UHF happened anyway, RCA would be damned if it wasn't the one selling the transmitters and, selling and licensing the receivers.. When RCA-NBC temporarily lost control of the FCC in the late 40's, both color and UHF became realities, and RCA-NBC were able to keep on top. It had, though, cost general Sarnoff's Empire untold millions of dollars.
In short, had CBS determined to be only a program provider, at some point the News and Observer might have owned a VHF Black and White TV station in Raleigh . UHF probably would have waited development. Analog color TV would have been different, and, beyond question, better.
post #10752 of 11118
Quote:
Originally Posted by difuse View Post

It was almost a decade after this that channel 8 could be assigned to High Point..

Channel 8 did not become available in North Carolina until the station in Florence, SC vacated. Once that happened, there was a flurry of activity from many communities vying for channel 8 including Fayetteville, Raleigh, Greensboro, Charlotte and Winston-Salem. When the FCC stated they would not be allocating channel 8 to a community that already had a TV station or allocation. The Winston-Salem contingency that was Southern Broadcasting, owners of WTOB, changed their application to High Point, since Winston-Salem already had WSJS-TV (WXII) and had a channel 45 allocation. Ultimately, Southern Broadcasting won the allocation for High Point and WGHP was born.
post #10753 of 11118
Quote:
Originally Posted by foxeng View Post

Channel 8 did not become available in North Carolina until the station in Florence, SC vacated. Once that happened, there was a flurry of activity from many communities vying for channel 8 including Fayetteville, Raleigh, Greensboro, Charlotte and Winston-Salem. When the FCC stated they would not be allocating channel 8 to a community that already had a TV station or allocation. The Winston-Salem contingency that was Southern Broadcasting, owners of WTOB, changed their application to High Point, since Winston-Salem already had WSJS-TV (WXII) and had a channel 45 allocation. Ultimately, Southern Broadcasting won the allocation for High Point and WGHP was born.

WTOB-TV had a very similar history to WNAO-TV. It went on the air in 1953 and shut down in '57 . The FCC's thinking on the matter of allocating channel 8 probably seems odd today.. It gave the Triad 3 commercial VHF stations, while Charlotte and the Triangle stayed at 2 each.. Given the demographics of the time, though, a channel 8 in High Point would probably serve more viewers than any place else.
post #10754 of 11118
Quote:
Originally Posted by difuse View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by foxeng View Post

Channel 8 did not become available in North Carolina until the station in Florence, SC vacated. Once that happened, there was a flurry of activity from many communities vying for channel 8 including Fayetteville, Raleigh, Greensboro, Charlotte and Winston-Salem. When the FCC stated they would not be allocating channel 8 to a community that already had a TV station or allocation. The Winston-Salem contingency that was Southern Broadcasting, owners of WTOB, changed their application to High Point, since Winston-Salem already had WSJS-TV (WXII) and had a channel 45 allocation. Ultimately, Southern Broadcasting won the allocation for High Point and WGHP was born.

WTOB-TV had a very similar history to WNAO-TV. It went on the air in 1953 and shut down in '57 . The FCC's thinking on the matter of allocating channel 8 probably seems odd today.. It gave the Triad 3 commercial VHF stations, while Charlotte and the Triangle stayed at 2 each.. Given the demographics of the time, though, a channel 8 in High Point would probably serve more viewers than any place else.

At the time the FCC awarded High Point channel 8, Greensboro and Winston-Salem were considered separate markets. When WGHP came on the air, High Point became its own market, which led to people watching the TV station in their own town and today is still entrenched in many viewers that do not see the three cities as one large community, hence Piedmont-Triad.
post #10755 of 11118
Quote:
Originally Posted by foxeng View Post

At the time the FCC awarded High Point channel 8, Greensboro and Winston-Salem were considered separate markets. When WGHP came on the air, High Point became its own market, which led to people watching the TV station in their own town and today is still entrenched in many viewers that do not see the three cities as one large community, hence Piedmont-Triad.

I was born in '64 and lived in the Triad (W-S) until moving away in the late 80s. While I think of the Triad as one area, I still think of the stations related to their 'home' city. It may be my imagination, but it always seems that during something like a snow event, each station goes out of its way to have its remote broadcast from somewhere else. It never made sense to me that, even for the sake of appearances, WFMY sent someone to Winston to stand on the side of the road and say "It's snowing." But, that said, I'm sure many people who've arrived here more recently don't have a mindset that associates the stations with the 3 cities as strongly.

I think someone mentioned it on here awhile back, but it does seem as though WFMY has given up on the pretense of being a Triad news station in recent months and is focusing far more on Greensboro than it used to.
post #10756 of 11118
In looking at the 1952 table, it is quite interesting how much changed in that original table to what the analog landscape looked like in 2009 when analog shutdown.

Every community that was more than a crossroads had a channel issued to it. All UHF. Many of the VHF's that came on in the mid 50's (WXII, WRAL for example) were in the works before the freeze so those requests were figured into the table since they were already accepted for filing, not an uncommon practice with the FCC, even today.

For example, Greensboro was allocated 2 (already on the air) 51 (educational channel) and 57. Winston-Salem was issued 12, 26 and 32 (educational channel.)

Of course there has never been an educational channel in the Triad and a station was never built on 57 and 26 was later re-allocated educational after WTOB-TV went dark with no analog station ever being built on 32 (WUNL-DT) or 51 (WFMY-DT) until DTV. It is interesting to note that almost 50 years after the first table came out, at least in the Triad, some of the original unused allocations were recycled to be used in the DTV world.

High Point was originally issued channel 15 in that 1952 table.

Durham was allocated 11, 40 (ED) and 46. It is interested to note that Raleigh was allocated 5, 22 (as the educational channel) and 28. But then Charlotte's allocations were not change at all. 3, 9, 36 with 42 as the educational channel. Chapel Hill has always been allocated 4 as educational with no other channels allocated. Kannapolis was allocated 59 and sometime later was changed to 58 educational. Just shows how channels were reallocated to make other channels more appealing for whatever reasons to those who wanted to venture into TV.

In the table, Fayetteville was allocated 18 and a station was built in the mid 50's on 18 (WFLB-TV) but went dark a few years later. The allocation was deleted and went to Charlotte as WCCB. That reallocation was used as justification for channel 8 to go to Fayetteville and not High Point. For years after, Fayetteville had no allocation until the 70's when channel 40 went on the air. Interesting sidebar, a friend of mine found the top 50 feet of the old WFLB-TV tower in a field abandoned (it wasn't a tall tower at all and was used for two radios for years) and he used it for his ham radio antennas.

Things like that happen all the time. A new table comes out about twice a year because of the number of changes that happen. With the channel freeze on now because of the repacking, the table has been fairly stable for the last year. When that comes out, the table will once again under go a total remake of channel allocations.
Edited by foxeng - 7/14/13 at 5:56am
post #10757 of 11118
Quote:
Originally Posted by foxeng View Post

At the time the FCC awarded High Point channel 8, Greensboro and Winston-Salem were considered separate markets. When WGHP came on the air, High Point became its own market, which led to people watching the TV station in their own town and today is still entrenched in many viewers that do not see the three cities as one large community, hence Piedmont-Triad.

There was a considerable difference in the local news on WSJS-TV and WFMY. at the point WGHP arrived. But, local news was 15 minutes, evening and night.. There was a news summary on "The Good Morning Show", but Lee Kinard was not thought of as a newsperson. There was still local entertainment programming.. WGHP shot out of the gate as a Triad station. Newsrooms were set up in Winston-Salem. and Greensboro...but.. the technical difficulty and the practical nonsense of somebody reading into a camera 25 miles away, when it could be done as well in High Point, put a quick end to that.. WGHP was just as technically limited as any station, despite the effort. It took the Japanese development of practical ENG tools, and the morphing of all local programing into "news" to come to what we think of as today's TV markets. The difference between 50 years ago and today is massive. Back then determining what news was, getting film shot and developed, and editing took all day for about 8 minutes of hard news. Today, with some piece-work videographers, a Triad newscast could be produced and anchored in Poland.
post #10758 of 11118
Quote:
Originally Posted by foxeng View Post

In looking at the 1952 table, it is quite interesting how much changed in that original table to what the analog landscape looked like in 2009 when analog shutdown.

There were a number of minor changes right out of the gate, though not in our part of the country. Pittsburgh eventually got its channel 4 and some other areas managed to squeeze in other VHFs. A couple of allotment swaps to squeeze more stations into the VHF band. Some time around 1965 or 1966 the table was wiped of a huge number of unused allotments; I'm not entirely sure why. After that, allotments were mostly added as needed, and so the table after 1967 started to look a lot more familiar, slowly adding familiar allotments up until the transition in 2009.

The current digital table is found in 47CFR73.622, right after the transitional table. They publish it once per year at this point.

- Trip
post #10759 of 11118
I knew there was a purging of the table but didn't know if it was 60's or 70's. Thanks for the info!
post #10760 of 11118
Quote:
Originally Posted by foxeng View Post

I knew there was a purging of the table but didn't know if it was 60's or 70's. Thanks for the info!

 

That purge is somewhat less famous than the 1971 purge that spelled doom for the Beverly Hillbillies and sent Hee Haw and Lawrence Welk into first-run syndication.

 

The FCC sure had a lot of unused educational allocations in the channel assignments tables, didn't it?

Hope springs eternal, I guess, but maybe by the mid 60's it was becoming clear that Newton Minow's vast wasteland was expanding.

post #10761 of 11118
Quote:
Originally Posted by veedon View Post

That purge is somewhat less famous than the 1971 purge that spelled doom for the Beverly Hillbillies and sent Hee Haw and Lawrence Welk into first-run syndication.

The FCC sure had a lot of unused educational allocations in the channel assignments tables, didn't it?
Hope springs eternal, I guess, but maybe by the mid 60's it was becoming clear that Newton Minow's vast wasteland was expanding.

Without overly editorializing I will state that the idea of "Educational TV" has changed A LOT in the last 50 years. When I was in Public school , daily lectures in some classes came from the UNC station. There was quite a bit of academic content on WUNC-TV in its early years.
Things changed, as they always will. Priorities change. Early on, WUNC-TV had studios in Chapel Hill, Raleigh and Greensboro. Most production was school related.
I had a clue that when associations developed into PBS, "educational" would come to a very broad definition. PBS became, in fact, a sort of BBC , without sports. I suppose most of these services refer to themselves as "public" rather than "educational", now..
"Non-commercial" is not a proper term, as PBS, and local programs have commercial announcements. In truth, some PBS programs are really infomercials..
I'll give the UNC Network great credit for expanding its coverage into most of the state, most of that credit I think going to the General Assembly.. I think the operation is silly at times.
There are 1 or 2 useful programs on each week. And, we'll usually get 3 or 4 chances to see it that week.
post #10762 of 11118
Quote:
Originally Posted by difuse View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by veedon View Post

That purge is somewhat less famous than the 1971 purge that spelled doom for the Beverly Hillbillies and sent Hee Haw and Lawrence Welk into first-run syndication.

The FCC sure had a lot of unused educational allocations in the channel assignments tables, didn't it?
Hope springs eternal, I guess, but maybe by the mid 60's it was becoming clear that Newton Minow's vast wasteland was expanding.

...  There was quite a bit of academic content on WUNC-TV in its early years.
Things changed, as they always will. Priorities change. Early on, WUNC-TV had studios in Chapel Hill, Raleigh and Greensboro. Most production was school related.
I had a clue that when associations developed into PBS, "educational" would come to a very broad definition. PBS became, in fact, a sort of BBC , without sports. ...
"Non-commercial" is not a proper term, as PBS, and local programs have commercial announcements. In truth, some PBS programs are really infomercials..
...
There are 1 or 2 useful programs on each week. And, we'll usually get 3 or 4 chances to see it that week.

I guess we just have very different viewpoints on these things.

 

I don't think UNC-TV's mission is exactly educational anymore, but it does have some educational programming, often in the wee hours of the morning. Some state universities have distance education programs that televise some courses on the local government or public access channels on local cable systems. That did not exist when educational TV was in its infancy.

 

UNC-TV does play a useful role in showing more sobriety in news coverage than is typical of the cable news channels.

I think Charlie Rose is a very good interviewer, and aside from C-SPAN it is hard to find those kinds of long interviews on cable TV.

 

As to PBS, UNC-TV does not even show all of the PBS shows. It often substitutes its own local programming.

It does that too often for my tastes.

 

Among the PBS shows, I especially like "American Experience" and "American Masters".

 

Some people say that PBS and the Corporation for Public Broadcasting were created as a way to rein in some public TV stations, like WNET in New York (northern New Jersey), that had been too critical of the presidential administrations of both parties in the late 1960's.

 

The best thing about public television, though, is its lack of reality programming.

You should check out WNET's humorous advertising campaign that mocks reality shows.

post #10763 of 11118
I agree with your analysis of UNCTV. There is too much missing content. I have considered getting a good VHF antenna to pick up WBRA. With my current antenna, I just can't grab that low VHF RF 3 from this distance at my antenna's low height. It will only show 15-20% and that's not enough.
post #10764 of 11118
I like the NC Weekend show on UNC-TV. And Charlie Rose, and the political talk show with Gwen Yfel. I am able to get 33 from Asheville, and even 17 from Linville with a strong signal. Plus 3 SCETV channels for PBS. Also I think Charlie Rose on CBS morning show is a refreshing change from Today and GMA.
post #10765 of 11118
Quote:
Originally Posted by veedon View Post

I guess we just have very different viewpoints on these things.

I don't think UNC-TV's mission is exactly educational anymore, but it does have some educational programming, often in the wee hours of the morning. Some state universities have distance education programs that televise some courses on the local government or public access channels on local cable systems. That did not exist when educational TV was in its infancy.

UNC-TV does play a useful role in showing more sobriety in news coverage than is typical of the cable news channels.
I think Charlie Rose is a very good interviewer, and aside from C-SPAN it is hard to find those kinds of long interviews on cable TV.

As to PBS, UNC-TV does not even show all of the PBS shows. It often substitutes its own local programming.
It does that too often for my tastes.

Among the PBS shows, I especially like "American Experience" and "American Masters".

Some people say that PBS and the Corporation for Public Broadcasting were created as a way to rein in some public TV stations, like WNET in New York (northern New Jersey), that had been too critical of the presidential administrations of both parties in the late 1960's.

The best thing about public television, though, is its lack of reality programming.
You should check out WNET's humorous advertising campaign that mocks reality shows.

I'm not sure I know what reality TV is. The only currently produced commercial network program I watch is "Big Bang Theory". PBS seems to have a program .that consists of a company of players that go forth and buy things, which they then attempt to sell. Evidently, the one who loses the least money in the process wins.

Of course, there are worthwhile things on UNCTV, but not many such things.

Before NET, CPB and PBS WUNC TV had university courses on -air in prime time. Not that unusual then., even in Newt Minnow's "Wasteland". CBS had "Sunrise Semester" which ran for quite a while.
I watched on WFMY . Curious, though, WFMY seemed to be acquiring the signal from WDBJ. There were a lot of "processing artifacts" on the screen.. Black and White, though, it really didn't matter.
Such things happened back then. The short lived WRFT in Roanoke got its ABC network programming from WGHP, OTA. . It was on channel 27. To tie things up a little with this discussion, the first attempt on channel 27 in Roanoke was WROV.. In 1953, WROV became the first UHF station in the US to voluntarily surrender its license. It lasted about 5 months.
post #10766 of 11118
Quote:
Originally Posted by difuse View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by veedon View Post

...

The best thing about public television, though, is its lack of reality programming.
You should check out WNET's humorous advertising campaign that mocks reality shows.

I'm not sure I know what reality TV is.

 

WNET would be happy to introduce you to the Tanners, the Clam Kings, and the Long Island Landscapers.

post #10767 of 11118
Quote:
Originally Posted by veedon View Post

WNET would be happy to introduce you to the Tanners, the Clam Kings, and the Long Island Landscapers.

OK. Next time I'm up that way, I'll drop in on them.
I'm not being sarcastic,, it is just from what I've heard: (1) I probably do not want to be introduced, and, (2) the miserable life I actually lead may be more interesting.
.I will gleefully concede I would probably prefer UNCTV to what I do not watch.
post #10768 of 11118
Quote:
Originally Posted by difuse View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by veedon View Post

WNET would be happy to introduce you to the Tanners, the Clam Kings, and the Long Island Landscapers.

OK. Next time I'm up that way, I'll drop in on them.
...
.I will gleefully concede I would probably prefer UNCTV to what I do not watch.

 

Sadly, those reality shows are fake, though AdWeek thinks people would watch them if they were real.

 

http://www.adweek.com/adfreak/nycs-pbs-station-dreams-more-horrible-fake-reality-shows-youd-probably-still-watch-151218

 

None of those shows would have much appeal for North Carolinians, but if the "The Dillionaire" ever retires to Mount Olive ...

post #10769 of 11118
post #10770 of 11118
Quote:
Originally Posted by difuse View Post


a note about the Fred Astaire special. That program had been produced and broadcast by NBC several years earlier.. CBS had kept its hand in color TV for several years after NTSC Color was adopted, but eventually decided it was not worth the money. IIRC CBS actually broadcast the first NTSC Color program after official adoption, although NBC beat it technically with a color station ID. At any rate, the Fred Astaire special, which I recall was broadcast by CBS in 1964, required the NBC color VTR because none of the CBS color equipment had been used for years, and it was cheaper to pay NBC than to spend the resources getting their Ampex up to code for one special. But the story does indicate how impressed everybody but NBC-RCA was about spending money on color..

There was something in the back of my mind on this, now I remember. . I remembered CBS couldn't play the tape, but didn't recall the exact reason. The Astaire special was recorded in a proprietary color format that only NBC had used, and, only NBC had machines for. I believe CBS only had an Ampex color VTR that conformed to the format agreed to by Ampex and RCA in 1959, which differed from that used for the Astaire special. There's another story tied to this I'll try to pin down later.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Local HDTV Info and Reception
AVS › AVS Forum › HDTV › Local HDTV Info and Reception › Greensboro, NC - HDTV