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Cambridge 650R - Should I add Emotiva XPA-5 Amp??

post #1 of 25
12/8/11 at 7:40pm
Thread Starter 
Hi. After browsing through some threads I could not see an answer to this sort of question.

I recently purchased a Cambridge 650R Receiver and Cambridge 751BD (blu-ray). The receiver boasts 100w x 7, all channels driven. The plan originally was to buy an Emotiva XPA-5 soon after to give it some even more juice and clarity... I went out and got some Van Den Hul RCA interconnects and everything which cost me in the hundreds just for those.

I do honestly have a good ear that is always striving for better, cleaner, richer, warmer sound. . .However, being in Australia I cannot hear an Emotiva before I buy so there is a $1,100 risk for me here. ($769 holiday buy special + $300 ish freight from the US). Any amp that seems to compare in specs is in the thousands which I do not want to spend at this stage.


Would adding the XPA-5 to do my 5 channel (L,C,R,LS,RS) be an audible improvement that I could say.. "ah, that was worth every cent and more" ?

Matt.
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post #2 of 25
12/9/11 at 9:46am
I am a power is power sort of guy but I don't doubt the emotive is a better design and possible audibility better in some situations than the Cambridge you have now. With that said.

0. What speakers are you using?
1. Are you presently clipping your amp?
2. How well is your room treated?
3. Hundreds of dollars cables are rarely a good investment but at least you won't worry about them.
4. You don't have any more locally available products. Even a good 2-3 channel amp will free up your AVR power supply.
5. You fully understand your AVR EQ and other setting? (and have tried turning them off?)
6. How is your speaker placement?

Acoustical treatment, placement and the speakers will make 10x the difference than the AMP imo.

Have Fun!
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post #3 of 25
12/9/11 at 5:17pm
Agree with the points raised above.

Q5. The CA is an audio only receiver, no VP, no DSP modes, no EQ. Power rating is probably near stated values.

Since the CA 751 BDP is the same platform as Oppo 93 but with upsampling for the analogue outputs, it only makes sense to use the analogue outputs to take advantage of that, and therefore there's no need for a HDMI AVR in the first place.

Read about the recent Emotiva dispute on the receiver forum from a Danish poster. I'm not taking sides as I don't believe in trials by forum, by at least you should be aware of potential pitfalls when things go wrong. It's hard to sort things out when you're half the globe away.
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post #4 of 25
12/11/11 at 2:56pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kmannth View Post

I am a power is power sort of guy but I don't doubt the emotive is a better design and possible audibility better in some situations than the Cambridge you have now. With that said.

0. What speakers are you using?
1. Are you presently clipping your amp?
2. How well is your room treated?
3. Hundreds of dollars cables are rarely a good investment but at least you won't worry about them.
4. You don't have any more locally available products. Even a good 2-3 channel amp will free up your AVR power supply.
5. You fully understand your AVR EQ and other setting? (and have tried turning them off?)
6. How is your speaker placement?

Acoustical treatment, placement and the speakers will make 10x the difference than the AMP imo.

Have Fun!

Thanks both for your thoughts.

Answers to your questions:

0. The speakers are from Dali, a Danish company. I use the Concept range. 8's for L+R, Center for center, 1's for SR+SR.
http://www.dali.com.au/products/concept-8.asp
http://www.dali.com.au/products/concept-center.asp
http://www.dali.com.au/products/concept-1.asp
1. Not clipping my receiver amps as far as I know (well I'm not near zero anyway)
2. Room is treated quite well. Very short reverb from the cathedral ceiling. Carpet floor, big U-shape velour couch. 2 x bass traps in opposite corner to sub with a mid trap behind it. Mid trap in the left corner of the left main speaker, a high mid trap behind each front floorstander for rebound as the opposing wall is a no go by authority higher than mine.
3.
4. There is brand in Australia called Aaron, but I'm not sure if they do amps. Ofcourse there are many brands but they're like the Parasounds, Rotel, Anthem, Marantz, NHT, etc with big price tags. Emotiva XPA-5 is $1100 delivered here. I could definitely search more....
5. I read both the AVR & Blu-ray player manual through a couple times and reviewed all audio options. The 650R has no EQ settings. Distance, etc has been set via their version of Audyssey which just does distance & level calculations. Basic tone control is all the AVR offers. (but it does sound very good how it is)
6. Speaker placement is probably nigh on perfect. Left and right either side of the TV, toed in a tiny bit as the Dali's advise to not toe them in like other speakers. And the imaging with the new 650R is excellent. Center is in the same level as the fronts so you could draw a gentle arc if you had a birds eye view. Surrounds are on stands approx 15 degrees rear of the ear. I find the imaging and speaker placement is outstanding at the moment. I'm just always keen to find out what can be next.

happy to hear any thoughts from that!
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post #5 of 25
12/11/11 at 3:06pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilian.ca View Post

Agree with the points raised above.

Q5. The CA is an audio only receiver, no VP, no DSP modes, no EQ. Power rating is probably near stated values.

Since the CA 751 BDP is the same platform as Oppo 93 but with upsampling for the analogue outputs, it only makes sense to use the analogue outputs to take advantage of that, and therefore there's no need for a HDMI AVR in the first place.

Read about the recent Emotiva dispute on the receiver forum from a Danish poster. I'm not taking sides as I don't believe in trials by forum, by at least you should be aware of potential pitfalls when things go wrong. It's hard to sort things out when you're half the globe away.

Kilian: thanks for your comment. In regards to connections I have run the stereo analogue out to a separate (CD) input on the receiver and run it direct analogue (i.e. no additional filters or sub) and the upsampling sounds fantastic as the stereo out has the best chips on the player from what I read.

The manual did suggest HDMI for video & audio out for the blu-ray content and use the analogue stereo out for 2-channel listening. Should I expect better decoding from the Blu-ray player and sending the analogue signal straight to RCA ins on my AVR then just sending over HDMI and letting the AVR decode?
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post #6 of 25
12/11/11 at 4:37pm
Decoding of DVD and Blu-ray audio tracks, including the HD codecs, to PCM is the same in the player and receiver. Not sure if player can do DSD-analogue direct decoding since it has to go through PCM upsampling.

Both player and receiver can set speaker distance and size. If as you say receiver can determine levels this may be useful, but only maybe.

The receiver does not have VP chip and doesn't do anything to video.

The receiver doesn't do upsampling but player does on all channels as I understand. If you only use stereo out via analogue you're not using the upsampling for the rest which you've paid for. I think the 751 uses Wolfson 8740 DAC and the receiver Cirrus Logic - generally the Wolfson is better of the two.

If you only use the stereo output to take advantage of upsampling, this can be achieved equally well or perhaps better with CA 850 CD player. Bear in mind apart from the MCH upsampling in the 751 BDP, everything else is essentially the same as Oppo 93. I don't know about pricing in Aus but in Canada the 751 costs more than the Oppo 95 (!) and I could just about buy a new Oppo 93 plus a used 850 CDP.

I suggest you listen and decide which method sounds best to you for MCH audio.
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post #7 of 25
12/11/11 at 5:08pm
Thread Starter 
Hmmm... It may be worth having a crack at listening to it. After all, I do have 5 Van Den Hul RCA cables sitting aside awaiting some sort of use.

I just was under the impression that audio over HDMI was better... I'm very happy to prove myself wrong if it sounds better. Plus then I'm getting more out of the 751BD; it is $1,300 RRP here in Aus. Oppo BDP-93 is $1,099 RRP, BDP-95 is $1,899 or something. So When I read reviews the Cambridge was in the playing field I couldn't turn down the bundled 650R & 751BD offer I came across.

Question: If I then output 5.1 from the 751BD do I use the blu-ray players level and distance menu options or leave them default and let the AVR (which already has these set) take care of it?

From the below links I didn't see where it states the 5 x Wolfson's are only for the analogue (RCA) outs... Have you seen this somewhere?
http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/specif...Specifications
http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/conten...e+Inside+Story

If it has 7.1 out then I'm wondering do I send the sub pre-out straight to the subwoofer or to my AVR so it can process any funky calcs like distance, etc.
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post #8 of 25
12/11/11 at 7:33pm
Audio over HDMI is better if the receiver can do digital processing (e.g. 2ch matriced to 7.1, or height or wide channels) and room correction, player does not have good bass management, and (arguably) when AVR has better DAC than player.

I've outlined that the CA 650R has no/few DSP modes, no room correction, player already does BM and has better DAC. Most importantly the player does upsampling on all channels, which is the very reason for buying it. Despite the upsampling claim, the player has no or very little attention here or in the UK's avforums.

I forgot to mention, there's a new CA651BDP without the upsampling, essentially similar to the Oppo 93.

If you output analogue from player, player does bass management.

Not sure what you're trying to ask about the Wolfson DACs, the links say 5 DACs for 10 channels (7.1 + dedicated stereo). They are not used for HDMI or SPDIF output, as these are digital, not analogue.

For player analogue out, sub pre- goes to receiver still, because you need the receiver to control volume. Also, the receiver needs to boost the sub channel by 10dB or 15dB.

You don't need the receiver to calculate speaker distance, just measure it yourself and enter the values in the player. The receiver should not be re-converting the analogue input to digital then back again to analogue for the speakers. In other words, player outputting analogue usually means receiver is doing pass through, which is nothing except volume control.
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post #9 of 25
12/11/11 at 8:05pm
Thread Starter 
"You don't need the receiver to calculate speaker distance, just measure it yourself and enter the values in the player. The receiver should not be re-converting the analogue input to digital then back again to analogue for the speakers. In other words, player outputting analogue usually means receiver is doing pass through, which is nothing except volume control."

^ in other words the blu-ray converting from digital (Blu-ray disk) to analogue (via Wolfson's) sending analogue (pre-outs) to receiver should yield a better result for audio?
Just getting my head around it... this is a new train of thought just in this area.

If I were to set distances from the player should I be setting the distance levels on the AVR back to a zero/default level? I'm just thinking would I encounter a double delay/distance effect if I didn't. . .

Thanks so far, your help has been informative.
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post #10 of 25
12/12/11 at 12:07am
Q1. IMO based on the specs the odds tips slightly in favour of player sending MCH analogue, because the player upsamples and has Wolfson and receiver adds little to that. But you should decide after careful comparison.

Q2. For most receivers, the speaker distance and size settings only apply to digital inputs and not to analogue inputs. This makes sense as you can still use digital inputs for other sources and have correct bass management applied in the receiver. I suggest check the 650 manual carefully.

Back to your power amp query, I suggest you don't rush into anything but take time to familiarise with the new player and receiver and see if you're happy with the sound as is. I doubt the CA 650 lacks power and the difference between 100WPC (CA) and 200WPC (Emo) sounds a lot but doubling power only adds 3dB. What some people do including myself is to add power amps (mono, 2CH or 3CH) only for the front two or front three and leave the receiver to do the rest.
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post #11 of 25
12/12/11 at 6:41am
Considering all things, CA is a very poor choice for multichannel audio (don't for get missing video processig too). I would just sell receiver for whatever price you can get for it and get a REAL AVR. This will give room correction DPL and Neo modes, and video adjustment (which is needed if some other source is going to used besides BD player). Separate power amplifier for two front channels is alwaus good idea with AVR, but you lukely do not need to amplify all channels externally.
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post #12 of 25
12/12/11 at 3:20pm
Thread Starter 
Hey Kilian, I had play around last night sending multi channel analogue. I must say the difference was not obvious, but I do believe it tipped slightly in favour of better. I felt more of the music scores in the background of everything. Though vocals were a touch thinner and more treble in them which I did not like. However, in changing the crossover on the blu-ray player from 80hz down to 60hz this brought some warmth to Optimus Prime's voice and Disney's Mufasa.
I could be happy with all that. . . What I was disappointed in was the affect on the LFE. By switching the crossover from 80hz to 60hz to give the vocals more the sub then lacked a lot of musicality. I added 10dB then worked my way down to an appropriate level of about +6.5dB. But here's the real problem; punchiness is now very prevalent i.e. 50hz but everything sub that is massively deminished. Nothing has changed at the sub end as it's EQ response is managed internally interpreted via graphic display through the AVR.

hmmmmm........
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post #13 of 25
12/12/11 at 11:15pm
The CA doesn't do any EQ at all in the sense of what Audyssey does. In any case with analogue input no DSP is applied.

Setting +6.5dB for the sub is generally too low. You seem to describe a mode at 50Hz. That explains why everything below 50Hz is 'massively diminished'. Try re-positioning the sub. If it has a phase shift adjustment option try it too. If you really need to deal with sub EQ, there are separate units for this purpose.
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post #14 of 25
12/13/11 at 12:49pm
I agree moving your sub to change its response an/or trying to eq the peak out of it for your primary listening position is worthwhile. Good bass isnt simple as it is more radically shaped by the room.

All in all I think it is safe you say you don't need an external amp right now. Focus on getting your bass/system properly configured.

Optimus voice extends over the crossover range 60-80hz.

I doubt you need more audio processing then your cabridge has. Do you have flexible crossover points?

Is the blu-ray player your only source? I would hate for you to spend ALOT of time making the player sound better when you might be able to adjust everything in the AVR. I am not surprised the only real difference you heard in sound came from the 60hz crossover shift. Basically you like the sound better when your let the speakers do more of the work.

Also something to try. Put some 2 channel music on. Run your towers full range. Turn your sub off (or use your Direct mode). See if you like the way it sounds. If you like it work on getting the 2.1 to a place your like it. Use music that has bass content. Get your 2.1 music to a place your like it then add the rest of the speakers back in. I find music (verses movies) to be a much better way to sort out how the bass is doing without breaking out the measurement tools.

Have Fun!
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post #15 of 25
12/13/11 at 2:37pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks guys for your suggestions. The thing that makes this more complex I guess is that the Velodyne DD18 sub that I have has it's on 8-band built in EQ features, calibration mic, on screen graphical frequency response video out (if you're not familiar with this sub). In music all is fine with a smooth even response. I've added a slight bump in 55hz for some drum kit and feel (as per the EQ setting of 5 customisable that the sub saves) and then let a little more 40hz roll in for those bass guitars and RnB lows.
My PS3 the sub sounds like it normally does, even in movies with a nuetral tone letting the mix of the movie do the work. I also have a "movies" setting which has a bump added in 35Hz for a more cinematic rumble feel.

When I purchased the cambridge the LFE levels and some of the tone changed just slightly. However, if I use the analogue inputs over HDMI the sub loses all the life it currently has. The sub is definitely on as that 50-60hz cranks through.

My sub has a 10-200hz sweep tone and I can measure the graphic response and EQ the sub from there. That sound comes straight out of the AVR with no processing on top. I spent anyway to 6 months of fiddling with positions, phase and polarity until I found the best flat response with the best volume. Feel assured the sub is in the best position. At 54kg, it's not easy to move around.

Only when the sub runs through analogue outs am I experiencing this weird change in character. Sure I can add in sub 50hz all the way to 15hz if I want but if I ever listen to music or something via the PS3 I would then have a ridiculous amount of sub 50HZ and everything would be out.

And yes I do like the mains doing a lot of the vocal depth. Since a sub is generally louder I find I don't like any boominess such as vocals or radio voices sounded like a muffled mess. i.e from 751DB via HDMI (crossover 80hz..or perhaps 70hz -can't remember) Mufasa from the Lion king had great depth and power without the sub coming in with boom. I like this as I find a cinema doesn't have vocals itching their way into the subs... Via analogue audio out from the 751BD I believe it was clearer, more ambient but too harsh on the treble and the feel of the low range of vocal just disappeared and it didn't go to the sub... just plain gone....

The 650R has a main crossover frequency I believe; not for each channel. So I think I've set it at 80Hz/70hz yet it yields a warmer touch than the blu-ray player crossover of 80hz. Perphaps a steeper slope per octave on the blu-ray? The next crossover point on the blu-ray is 60hz which is too far (I tried - too much musicality disappears to the sub from soundtrack drums and the like from movies such as Avatar)
Regardless of crossover the LFE still sends a full LFE signal up to about 150-200hz (I turned off the low pass in my Velodyne to prove this) so have set an 80Hz Low pass at 24db per octave which seems to be good as I had this stupid 93hz bass coming through to the sub - especially in drum kicks- and made the $6,000 sub sound like a $100 surround bundle set subwoofer....

As the sub is so far my greatest investment it is my greatest focus point. 1: because I have had it sounding better and 2: I work with live PA's and so a decent sub needed to be part of my life haha
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post #16 of 25
12/13/11 at 2:56pm
Thread Starter 
For more info on the sub (now end of sale life at velodyne.com)

http://www.whathifi.com/review/velodyne-dd-18
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post #17 of 25
12/13/11 at 6:05pm
As I said before, a receiver would apply a 10dB boost to the sub if there is no BM (all speakers set to LARGE), or 15dB boost if there is BM, for all digital inputs. That is the standard and all happens internally without your intervention. For analogue input one should mimic that as far as possible. Once you deviate significantly from that it's more complicated than it really is.

The Oppo 93 has a 12dB/octave slope at 80Hz as measured by audioholics. It can be assumed the CA BDP is similar. Dunno about the receiver.

At the end of the day if going HDMI has the least problems then so be it. At least you've done the listening and are more informed.
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post #18 of 25
12/13/11 at 7:44pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks Kilian.

So from that I should leave my speakers set to 'small' via the AVR if I go HDMI and if I use analogue ensure I push approx 15dB to the sub out.

This has been good info. I don't think I will pursue an external amp at this stage. Perhaps if I have a more spread out and larger, dedicated HT room but until then I am not clipping the amp even in substantial demo volumes.
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post #19 of 25
12/14/11 at 7:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neilsy View Post

So from that I should leave my speakers set to 'small' via the AVR if I go HDMI and if I use analogue ensure I push approx 15dB to the sub out.

Yep.
I can only do +10dB on my old AVR and it seems enough to me for movies and concerts. To do +15dB I'll need to lower 5dB on all the levels except the sub.

You might like to try 2.1 for music via HDMI as it seems such a waste not to use your DD18! Must have been fun to play with the EQ.
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post #20 of 25
12/14/11 at 7:42pm
Thread Starter 
Hey Kilian,
I had a good night last night. Had some time to actual play and wasn't too late so I could turn up the heat (volume). Had a crack at analogue again. I compared all sorts of things from AVR crossover points, blu-ray crossover points and the sub's own low pass filter. I am very pleased that I came up with a fantastic combo!
via AVR:
C: 70hz
L+R: 80hz
SL+SR: 80 hz

Blu-ray: 80hz
Sub trim only needed 7.5db for me which marries well with my PS3's HDMI out LFE level as I didn't want independant sub volumes for inputs.

Sub: 80hz, 24dB per octave

I've yet to compare a couple more movies but so far so good. The 50-60hz is prominent still via analogue so I just let back in some more 40hz and below via the EQ on my Velodyne to taste as all music, music dvd's, movies are through that anyway. Only gaming is via PS3 and who cares about TV anyway as in Aus hardly anything is in 5.1 anyway even on HD channels.

I know have massive drive and oomph, but the shake of 35hz is back to life again. Maybe the Wolfson DACs provide a cleaner sound via analogue as the bass has a slightly different character; definitely warmer and a touch tighter. 30 Seconds to Mars - The Kill kicks in with authority as loud as I ever want and with tightness promised from Velodyne's servo feedback technology.

Now I'll hopefully enjoy some months listening and put the idea of an external amp to rest...

open to thoughts here... given my current setup what should I be thinking of next? Power management?
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post #21 of 25
12/14/11 at 8:00pm
Thread Starter 
As for music the AVR can do an analogue in mode and still output to sub. It's a stereo mode called L+R+SubW so covered for that.
For more audiophile listening I use the dedicated stereo out from the 751BD into a CD in on the 650R which then is in direct mode via AVR and utlises full band of the front pairs, no sub. This sounds particularly fantastic!

Yes the Velodyne is technologically great to play with. However if you're always wanting to tweak and achieve better it opens a flood gate of non-stop curious fiddling which I have to constantly stop myself haha! Had any experience or read up about them yourself?
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post #22 of 25
12/15/11 at 1:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neilsy View Post


Now I'll hopefully enjoy some months listening and put the idea of an external amp to rest...

open to thoughts here... given my current setup what should I be thinking of next? Power management?


Enjoy the heck out of your system and stop worrying about the next upgrade

Larger/better display for movies? Better seating? Higher quality beverages while listening to music ?

BTW I eq my IB last about 5 years ago it is a lot of fun going from start to something special with the bass. I should probably set the measurement rig up again and see if anything has changed but this still sound good to me so i don't mess with it.

Have Fun!
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post #23 of 25
12/15/11 at 2:27pm
Thread Starter 
I will do!

One day I will go a projector when it's not one of the living rooms. .

Thanks and enjoy Christmas!
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post #24 of 25
12/15/11 at 5:19pm
Neilsy, sub trim only +7.5dB: as you can adjust the sub volume to 'compensate' what you set for the trim isn't terribly crucial. I remember vaguely reading about the PS3 having different levels depending on whether it's outputting PCM or bitstream to some AVRs and nobody could offer an explanation (not DialNorm related). Dunno if this is relevant here if you use the PS3's levels to gauge the CA's. Have you also checked with an SPL meter?

I asked about 2.1 via HDMI as I was just wondering how that compares to the analogue route, now you've done the comparison with 5.1. After I last posted I thought of the L+R+SW analogue mode, but does the L+R come off the dedicated stereo out, or the 7.1? Are the dedicated stereo outs any special as they have Wolfson DACs just like the 7.1? In some players with dedicated stereo outs they are just splitting off the FR/FL from the 7.1.

EQing the sub isn't something I can nor inclined to do (I only have a basic Velodyne but sufficient for my 2.1 room) but I've enjoyed reading your experience.

Instead of further upgrading at the moment just enjoy your movies and music. In due course (no rush) perhaps think about using another method to measure the room response and particularly for the bass see how that compares to what the DD18 shows.
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post #25 of 25
12/15/11 at 5:37pm
Thread Starter 
Hey Kilian,
The PS3 does have a lower LFE out via the HDMI when comparing to analogue out from the blu-ray player. However it doesn't matter now; as the Velodyne has 5 customisable settings each including own EQ, volume, yada yada I have set one that sounds good for games and volume to taste. If I choose to stream music from a media server I just use another preset on the sub that is good for music both via the AVR & PS3.

If I play music via PS3 to the AVR it is over HDMI L+R+Sub and sounds good. If I play music from blu-ray it still uses the 7.1 analogue input and sends a signal to L+R+sub channels only. But still reads 7.1 but there definitely is not audio coming through the remaining channels.
But the blu-ray player has a second set of dedicated stereo out with some nice DAC's. If I want just pure 2-channel listening I have plugged these into my AVR into another input and labelled it CD and set the AVR to decode 'pure analogue'. No sub is on, speakers return to fullband, no 80hz lowpass. And it sounds very nice sometimes for more audiophile listening such as soundtracks or classical pieces or turning the TV off and using the blu-ray player as a cd player.

I do believe in EQ as I do live mixing (FOH) outside of 9x5 work. No matter the environment EQ-ing the room provides exceptional improvements. And every frequency across a 32-band EQ is analysed and if too hot; pulled out till level with the rest.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, I appreciate it. Enjoy the Christmas season!
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