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DTV problems in 60099 - Page 6

post #151 of 218
4/27/12 at 11:10am
Thread Starter 
I hate this, can't even watch anything now without the signal dropping out,especially on WSNS and WGBO. Signal strength would be in the 50s yet the quality will constantly swing from 91% to 14% then to 0% and back up again. Why is it doing this with the signal strength in the 50s? It should at least be watchable at this point.
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post #152 of 218
4/27/12 at 2:14pm
Leaves on trees and an antenna sitting on a stack of chairs. Look up "multipath".

Mount the antenna properly or subscribe to antenna/lifeline service from your cable provider.
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post #153 of 218
4/27/12 at 6:15pm
Thread Starter 
Yea Comcast has that called Xfinity TV which is $9.95 a month for 6 months after that what does it go up to? It's ridiculous to have to pay a monthly fee just to be able to watch FREE TV. I think they're intentionally sabotaging the signal of WSNS (since they own it) which also affects stations around it just to get people to subscribe to cable. Coincidentally there's also been a rash of Xfinity TV commercials on lately especially on WSNS and WMAQ.
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post #154 of 218
4/27/12 at 7:52pm
eric you are just going to have to put your antenna higher up. Also using a reflector would probably cu down on multipath.
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post #155 of 218
4/27/12 at 8:26pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BCF68 View Post

eric you are just going to have to put your antenna higher up. Also using a reflector would probably cu down on multipath.

the house is all brick and the only way is to get ahold of a ladder which I do not have access to. So much bullshÃ*t just to be able to get the "green" TVFool channels.
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post #156 of 218
4/28/12 at 2:31pm
You must have nearby neighbors that are successfully getting the "green" channels. Go over there, introduce yourself, explain the problem, and see how they are doing it. If no one can get the "green" channels, then you know for sure you are in a 'reception challenging' location.
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post #157 of 218
4/28/12 at 7:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by retiredengineer View Post

You must have nearby neighbors that are successfully getting the "green" channels. Go over there, introduce yourself, explain the problem, and see how they are doing it. If no one can get the "green" channels, then you know for sure you are in a 'reception challenging' location.

Well his main issues in my book is that

A) he was using one of those loop antennas which are really built for indoor use and a cheap Chinese POS.

B) bad location. He claims he can't put it higher( which isn't always better anyways ) but I don't see where he tried different areas either. Sometimes just a few feet or less can make a difference. I know I have hot spots where I can get in a signal and yet 1 foot to either side and nada.
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post #158 of 218
4/28/12 at 7:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by eric12341 View Post

I think they're intentionally sabotaging the signal of WSNS (since they own it) which also affects stations around it just to get people to subscribe to cable.

Keep thinking. And adjust your tin foil hat while your at it.
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post #159 of 218
4/28/12 at 7:25pm
If you're getting dropped cell service and poor FM radio reception, you should not be at all surprised that you cannot get a TV station reliably at your location. Just because TVFool shows a station in a list of stations you may possibly receive, doesn't mean you will be able to.

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post #160 of 218
5/2/12 at 10:32am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by retiredengineer View Post

You must have nearby neighbors that are successfully getting the "green" channels. Go over there, introduce yourself, explain the problem, and see how they are doing it. If no one can get the "green" channels, then you know for sure you are in a 'reception challenging' location.

They all either have cable , satellite,or roof antennas. This house is the only one that is brick, has the most trees around it and no roof antenna.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BCF68 View Post

Well his main issues in my book is that

A) he was using one of those loop antennas which are really built for indoor use and a cheap Chinese POS.

B) bad location. He claims he can't put it higher( which isn't always better anyways ) but I don't see where he tried different areas either. Sometimes just a few feet or less can make a difference. I know I have hot spots where I can get in a signal and yet 1 foot to either side and nada.

A) I've used all kinds of antennas, the radio shack budget, the terk HDTVi,the Winegard HD1080 (returned), and the RCA ANT 751. None of these so far have been able to get in all of the green stations on a consistent basis, especially WSNS,WLS, and WCPX (all in the same spectrum).

B) I've tried the ANT 751 on the railing of my porch stairs and it performed worse than the above antennas in the chair.
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post #161 of 218
5/2/12 at 11:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by eric12341 View Post

They all either have cable , satellite,or roof antennas. This house is the only one that is brick, has the most trees around it and no roof antenna.

Brick, wood, logs, whatever...
The key to your "problem" IMO, is that you have not tried mounting an antenna on the roof. You can try all of the antennas in the world, but at ground level or stacked on chairs, you are not going to get stable reception (as you already have found out).

Borrow or rent a ladder and mount an outdoor antenna properly.
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post #162 of 218
5/2/12 at 12:32pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

Brick, wood, logs, whatever...
The key to your "problem" IMO, is that you have not tried mounting an antenna on the roof. You can try all of the antennas in the world, but at ground level or stacked on chairs, you are not going to get stable reception (as you already have found out).

Borrow or rent a ladder and mount an outdoor antenna properly.


Don't even know how well it would even work since there's a tree in my neighbors yard which is blocking the LOS,it's worth a try tho especially since my semester is over now, my parents are also planning on moving and have been looking at houses lately, these houses supposedly aren't surrounded by trees, so that should significantly improve my TV,FM and 3G reception.
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post #163 of 218
5/2/12 at 2:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by eric12341 View Post

Don't even know how well it would even work since there's a tree in my neighbors yard which is blocking the LOS,it's worth a try tho especially since my semester is over now, my parents are also planning on moving and have been looking at houses lately, these houses supposedly aren't surrounded by trees, so that should significantly improve my TV,FM and 3G reception.

Depends. Their new location could be better or not. You never posted a pic of you tree issue. But if there was a tree issue then certainly getting an antenna ANY antenna higher is going to be better. Trees aren't going to affect FM reception much. The signal would pass right through them as if they weren't there. 3G sure, trees can be an issue. 4G should be less of one though. of course depends on how far you are from the towers.

Just being crazy here but did you ever try aiming the antennas towards milwaukee?
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post #164 of 218
5/2/12 at 6:09pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BCF68 View Post

Depends. Their new location could be better or not. You never posted a pic of you tree issue. But if there was a tree issue then certainly getting an antenna ANY antenna higher is going to be better. Trees aren't going to affect FM reception much. The signal would pass right through them as if they weren't there. 3G sure, trees can be an issue. 4G should be less of one though. of course depends on how far you are from the towers.

Just being crazy here but did you ever try aiming the antennas towards milwaukee?

3G and 4G are along the same frequency spectrum, at least when T-mobile (my carrier) and AT&T are concerned. Verizon and sprint use different frequencies for their 4G networks, sprint doesn't even have 4G at this location and the 3G is unusably slow (why I switched to T-mobile) but my signal levels are about the same. The towers of all the carriers average 1.2miles from me.

As for Milwaukee the tree situation is worse in that direction, it's like a mini woods, only way around that is to sit the antenna and chairs on the sidewalk.
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post #165 of 218
5/3/12 at 11:27am
Thread Starter 
Ughhh fúçkÃ*n antennas can't even get in WGN anymore and that's the strongest signal. There goes my Maury and sox games.

EDIT: here's a link to pictures of these bullshÃ*t áss trees that are messing everything up. The first is what it looks like from where the chair is, the second is what it looks like if I were to put it on the roof. This seriously is making me want to overdraw my bank account to hire a contractor to put up my ANT751 and call someone to take down all the trees:

https://skydrive.live.com/redir.aspx...KoAaHWx162sMMI
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post #166 of 218
5/3/12 at 1:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by eric12341 View Post

Ughhh fúçkÃ*n antennas can't even get in WGN anymore and that's the strongest signal. There goes my Maury and sox games.

EDIT: here's a link to pictures of these bullshÃ*t áss trees that are messing everything up. The first is what it looks like from where the chair is, the second is what it looks like if I were to put it on the roof. This seriously is making me want to overdraw my bank account to hire a contractor to put up my ANT751 and call someone to take down all the trees:

https://skydrive.live.com/redir.aspx...KoAaHWx162sMMI

You're problem with it on the chair is not only trees but is the 2 buildings in front of you. If you at least get the antenna above them I think your reception will be improved. Also I think with a ladder and some clippers you can at least get those smaller branches that are hanging down.
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post #167 of 218
5/3/12 at 2:14pm
Seriously...
Get a contractor and have them mount an antenna and/or cut down your trees. Your efforts are futile and you don't want to listen to anyone's recommendations. And now, you start with explitives. You need to stop watching Maury.
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post #168 of 218
5/3/12 at 3:02pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

Seriously...
Get a contractor and have them mount an antenna and/or cut down your trees. Your efforts are futile and you don't want to listen to anyone's recommendations. And now, you start with explitives. You need to stop watching Maury.


It's not that I don't want to listen its that those that I live with don't want to help out with the costs of a contractor because they think it won't help the problem and would just rather get cable back on which is still another month away. With the little social life I have and now no school,its going to be a very long month just struggling to be able to watch my TV shows.
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post #169 of 218
5/3/12 at 3:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by eric12341 View Post

It's not that I don't want to listen its that those that I live with don't want to help out with the costs of a contractor because they think it won't help the problem and would just rather get cable back on which is still another month away. With the little social life I have and now no school,its going to be a very long month just struggling to be able to watch my TV shows.

Dude signal in your area is fine. Your issue is VERY localized. Cutting down the trees or pruning them will help. At least getting that antenna 16-20 feet up will help. Personally I mount it on the front right corner of your house at least 16 feet high and prune them branches on the right side of your house.
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post #170 of 218
5/3/12 at 10:18pm
Can you receive the analog station WOCH on channel 41? If you can, you will probably see lots of ghosting. You want to move your antenna around until you see as little ghosting as possible. Without moving the antenna, switch your TV to WGN and see if this gives you a more stable reception.
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post #171 of 218
5/4/12 at 4:21pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by retiredengineer View Post

Can you receive the analog station WOCH on channel 41? If you can, you will probably see lots of ghosting. You want to move your antenna around until you see as little ghosting as possible. Without moving the antenna, switch your TV to WGN and see if this gives you a more stable reception.

Took me forever to get WGN today(used to be able to get it with a coathanger) was so bad that I eventually went back to the RS loop antenna which was able to pick it up no problem. On some days reception is fine on the channels I watch with the terk, but on others I need the RS loop. Sometimes it takes alot of effort to get them in wih either antenna and I'm tired of it. Worse yet those that I live with are strongly against getting a roof antenna and don't think it'll work.
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post #172 of 218
5/4/12 at 6:23pm
Thread Starter 
Now I'm not getting anything at all! FML!
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post #173 of 218
5/5/12 at 1:25pm
eric12341,
I believe the major cause of your reception difficulty is that you live too close to Lake Michigan. The TV signals from Chicago travel over the water before reaching you. The water is a good reflector of TV signals so you are getting multipath signals along with the LOS signal. This results in hot spots (good reception) and cold spots (no reception.) The signals also bend or refract when going over water. The amount of bending can change with temperature and time of day. That's why you can get good reception some times then no reception. The hot and cold spots are moving around. You could try a roof mounted antenna but who can predict what will happen. Cable may be a better option.
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post #174 of 218
5/5/12 at 7:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by retiredengineer View Post

eric12341,
I believe the major cause of your reception difficulty is that you live too close to Lake Michigan. The TV signals from Chicago travel over the water before reaching you. The water is a good reflector of TV signals so you are getting multipath signals along with the LOS signal. This results in hot spots (good reception) and cold spots (no reception.) The signals also bend or refract when going over water. The amount of bending can change with temperature and time of day. That's why you can get good reception some times then no reception. The hot and cold spots are moving around. You could try a roof mounted antenna but who can predict what will happen. Cable may be a better option.

His issue is his house is surrounded by trees particularly in the back yard where he insists the antenna must be. The rest of his neighborhood is pretty much a normal neighborhood. So it's not like he lives near a forest. Might explain why he seemed to get better reception in the winter. If anything is causing the multipath it's the trees. So perhaps he should invest in some pruning equipment.

Also the signals from Milwaukee don't go over the water something more like a db-4 would be needed and mounted at least at the roof line. Also the RadioShack loop is pretty wide beamwidth( close to 90 degrees I think ) so that's not good for multipath issues. Perhaps and antenna with a narrower beamwidth. Maybe something like a HBU22 or something similar.
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post #175 of 218
5/6/12 at 10:52am
I don't think trees can produce significant multipath signals. More likely the trees will weaken or obstruct the signal so that is why 'the higher the better'.

HDTVPrimer says this about multipath or ghost:
Many websites say ghosts are caused by reflections off nearby objects. But this is true maybe 1% of the time. Most such reflections are spherical waves that die off quickly due to spreading, too quickly to be delayed enough to produce a ghost. Only a plane surface can produce a reflection that will persist long enough, and most natural flat surfaces are at an angle that will reflect upwards away from any antenna. Building surfaces can produce ghosts. But like for a mirror, the reflection off a building surface is very directional.

So this is consistent with my hypothesis that the primary multipath signal are reflections off the water of Lake Michigan.
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post #176 of 218
5/6/12 at 1:44pm
No matter... multipath or weak signals, the OP has a problem due to:
no money
no ladder
no support from family
no experience
... and whatever else.

As for trees and multipath, HDTVPrimer states this:
Quote:


Multi-path interference

This is a problem that, if severe, can prevent DTV reception even if the signal is strong. The signal is reaching the antenna by more than one path due to diffraction around hills and trees and sometimes reflections off of structures.



There are two distinct categories of multi-path interference. The first is “short delay” multi-path, delays of less than about 20 nanoseconds. On analog channels there will be no visible ghosts.



Short delay multi-path - This is always caused by something directly in front of the antenna. One common cause is a tree in front of the antenna. There will be chaotically overlapped signals behind a tree. This will mainly affect UHF reception. The solution is to relocate the antenna (or cut down the tree). If the antenna stays behind the tree, you will likely see dropouts on UHF channels when the wind blows. And that’s for strong-signal areas. In weak-signal areas you will likely get no UHF reception at all behind a tree.



The other common cause is an irregular skyline (structures and trees in the distance). These will cause overlapping fields, which will result in a regular pattern of strong and weak spots. For UHF, moving the antenna right or left three feet or so can make a huge difference. Moving the antenna is usually the solution. Unfortunately a strong spot for one channel can be a weak spot for a different channel. The same phenomenon happens for VHF, but since wavelengths are ten times as big, the strong and weak spots are ten time further apart, so moving the antenna to a strong spot is often too far to be practical. For VHF the solution is usually a bigger antenna. (The author faces a severe case of skyline multi-path. His UHF strong spots are always about 12 feet apart, but they can move with the weather. His solution: He erected two UHF antennas 6 feet apart, selected by a switch. Whenever one antenna is in a weak spot, the other is guaranteed to be in a strong spot, so at least one antenna always works.)



Long delay multi-path - This is caused by a large obstruction like a hill or a large building. If you tune in an analog channel close in frequency and from the same direction, you will see ghost images. The offending signals are approaching the antenna mostly from the front and sides, but also in rare cases from the rear. Actually all analog images have these ghosts, but without the direct path blocked they are too dim to see.



One solution is to move the antenna to a new spot where signals from the offending directions are less strong. A move of 20 feet or more will likely be necessary.



The other solution is to select an antenna with little or no reception in the offending directions. There are two workable strategies here. If the analog channels show one really strong ghost (and maybe a number of weaker ones) then selecting an antenna with a null will work. See “Nulls in radiation pattern”. Otherwise a highly directional antenna is the way to go. The higher the antenna’s gain, the less reception it will have to the side. (More advice on multi-path can be found at http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/silver.html . Although that article is written for the Silver Sensor antenna, the same principles apply to larger antennas.)



Do it right or subscribe to lifeline/antenna service from a cable provider.
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post #177 of 218
5/6/12 at 2:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by retiredengineer View Post

I don't think trees can produce significant multipath signals.

Disagree. From experience, I believe the leafs cause multipath issues.
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post #178 of 218
5/6/12 at 2:26pm
... leaves on trees and/or needles on conifers. Add water and wind, it can make matters worse.
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post #179 of 218
5/6/12 at 3:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken H View Post

Disagree. From experience, I believe the leafs cause multipath issues.

Yes that is true but today's ATSC receiver can tolerate multipath delays out to 15 microseconds as long as the multipath signal is 1 dB smaller than the main signal, and out to 20 microseconds for signals 2 dB smaller. How many nearby trees does it take to produce multipath signals that strong?
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post #180 of 218
5/6/12 at 4:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by retiredengineer View Post

Yes that is true but today's ATSC receiver can tolerate multipath delays out to 15 microseconds as long as the multipath signal is 1 dB smaller than the main signal, and out to 20 microseconds for signals 2 dB smaller. How many nearby trees does it take to produce multipath signals that strong?

Did you see the pic he posted?
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