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Center Channel for the rear in 6.1

post #1 of 18
Thread Starter 
It seems like a good idea. Is it?
post #2 of 18
If you want dialog from behind you... I guess so. Most would not agree.

OTOH, do mean you are considering to use a center channel speaker as the '6'? That may work adequately. It all depends on your speaker make/models (all around), size of room, distances, etc....

IOW, provide more detail about your setup and expectations.
post #3 of 18
I'm currently using an old centre channel for my 6th speaker. Its not in a preferred set up since its only like 3 feet away from me but I like it. The girlfriend believes it adds immersion to films lol
post #4 of 18
I have had it for years!

It's easy to do. Get an old Dolby Pro Logic decoder. Feed the L&R inputs of this second decoder with the rear L&R signals from the main processor.. The center out of the second decoder is your rear center.

Volume control is a problem though. I built an outboard VCA box which is tapped off the data buss in my Lexicon processor but that's not a general DIY solution. I guess a simpler DIY solution would be to pad down the L&R rear speaker outputs with a simple resistor divider and feed that into the second decoder. Remember it's just a rear center so a little more noise and distortion on this channel is no big deal at all.
post #5 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

I have had it for years!

It's easy to do. Get an old Dolby Pro Logic decoder. Feed the L&R inputs of this second decoder with the rear L&R signals from the main processor.. The center out of the second decoder is your rear center.

Volume control is a problem though. I built an outboard VCA box which is tapped off the data buss in my Lexicon processor but that's not a general DIY solution. I guess a simpler DIY solution would be to pad down the L&R rear speaker outputs with a simple resistor divider and feed that into the second decoder. Remember it's just a rear center so a little more noise and distortion on this channel is no big deal at all.

In theory you could eliminate the volume control concern if you used a processor that can bypass its volume-control (or lacks one altogether); examples here would be the Technics SH-AC300 and Yamaha DSP-1 (you could really silly with the Yamaha here). Just feed pre-outs into it, it even includes a return for the L&R rear amplifiers, and then feed the center (and whatever other outputs you want to connect) into the amplifiers and speakers for the new rear center and so on. Volume control from the main processor will carry over (because it's taking a pre-out signal, and going "straight through" on the secondary processor, the signal is lower overall, so it comes out lower - calibrating each channel shouldn't be impossibly hard (but may take some time)).

Finally, there's "Center Surround Expanders" from Parasound and Smart that sometimes come up on the used market, these do exactly what Glimmie and I are describing, but they're purpose-built for the task (the Parasound model is more home/user friendly).

Running a "center channel" designed speaker as the rear center is about as good as using the same speaker up front - you aren't getting rid of any of the positives or negatives associated with the design. If it works in your room/environment, then it works. As far as the benefits of 6.1 - I wasn't entirely sold when I had my room set-up in that manner, but it wasn't any worse! Give it a shot.
post #6 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by walbert View Post

In theory you could eliminate the volume control concern if you used a processor that can bypass its volume-control (or lacks one altogether); examples here would be the Technics SH-AC300 and Yamaha DSP-1 (you could really silly with the Yamaha here). Just feed pre-outs into it, it even includes a return for the L&R rear amplifiers, and then feed the center (and whatever other outputs you want to connect) into the amplifiers and speakers for the new rear center and so on. Volume control from the main processor will carry over (because it's taking a pre-out signal, and going "straight through" on the secondary processor, the signal is lower overall, so it comes out lower - calibrating each channel shouldn't be impossibly hard (but may take some time)).

Yes that would work. I wasn't clear in my post that I was taking the rear L&R pre-volume control in the Lexicon. Of course that's a mod too. I feed an surround sound VGA meter from that feed as well.

Here: www.pas-products.com/surround_meter.htm
post #7 of 18
I have a set up almost exactly like pokevin and am in agreement with him. Try it and see how you like the outcome.
post #8 of 18
I'd advise against using a single rear speaker unless it is the only possible choice. Use a pair of speakers, even if feeding them from a single rear center channel output in a 6.1 receiver. This avoids the well documented phenomenon of front rear reversal when a mono source is placed along the listener centerline.

If you only have the extra center lying around, can't aford a pair of speakers instead, and are wondering whether it would be better than no rear at all... I'm not sure. Experiment and see if you are bothered by anything I guess.
post #9 of 18
Thread Starter 
A friend has this set up and loves it. His receiver is a 7.1, so there is not special wiring required. His room is fairly large so his seating position is not pushed against the back wall. I thought it was a little odd but like I say he loves it. The speakers are Klipsch and I think he took the older smaller center channel and put it in the back when he upgraded the front. All the other speakers are klipsch too.
post #10 of 18
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigus View Post

This avoids the well documented phenomenon of front rear reversal when a mono source is placed along the listener centerline

Really? Can you provide some?
post #11 of 18
My processor with PLIIx puts ambient sounds through the "6th" channel and I have not expereinced the problem Bigus described. Is this a processor/process related issue?
post #12 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by someoledude View Post

My processor with PLIIx puts ambient sounds through the "6th" channel and I have not expereinced the problem Bigus described. Is this a processor/process related issue?

Same with me. For the op if you have an old speaker laying around give 6.1 a shot and see if you like it
post #13 of 18
I should also note that I can turn off my rear center from my Ipad remote. So I can check if it's doing anything bad in terms of phase cancellation.
post #14 of 18
The front rear reversal is a phenomenon in which we have trouble localizing sounds that are directly along the midline. We rely on several cues to determine location including level differences and arrival time differences between left and right ears. These are obviously absent when a mono source is along the midline. That leaves the way our outer ears modify incoming soundwaves dependent on the angle at which they approach our ears, commonly referred to as hrtf, or head related transfer function. People with complete loss of hearing on one side can still localize sounds fairly well relying on only this cue (obviously much better on the side with hearing intact). Strangely enough, with sounds along the midline and other cues gone, hrtf can fail us as well making it difficult to figure out if a sound is directly ahead of or behind us. This happens more frequently when there are visual cues in front, like a huge screen filled with action that our brains are happy to attribute as the source. We also struggle more when the source is above ear level (I suppose because in an evolutionary context things which ate us tended to be at or below eye level, not above). For this reason we can be fooled into thinking a high mounted center is actually at eye level more easily than one below eye level, which is why I and many others typically recommend a center be mounted above the screen rather than below if the choice must be made. And it also makes front rear reversal more likely when the rear center is mounted higher on a wall, which it often is. And this is why lexicon and others wishing to implement overhead effects don't have an actual overhead speaker in their configurations.

This was the result of research into surround sound methods and is why the industry quickly moved from 6.1 to 7.1 format (and why some of the companies more attuned to the research, like lexicon, skipped 6.1 entirely). This research showed that if two speakers separated far enough (it doesn't take much) reproduced the rear signal, the change in incident angle and change in hrtf was enough to stabilize the rear image. Strangely enough I don't recall where all I've run across this information. Probably in some Dolby labs white papers, aes articles, and likely many other places, though I can't recall any specific sources off hand nor does a ten second google attempt locate the obvious original sources.

In any case, this is all a theoretical explanation. While the effect is real, has been well documented, and was compelling enough to steer the industry away from a single rear channel, it doesn't mean any particular person will necessarily have a problem in his room. There may be room asymmetry, you may not sit quite on the midline, there may be furniture or other nearby objects in the rear of the room that produce strong localizable reflections, a horizontally configured center channel may have two midrange drivers separated just far enough, your rear center may be mounted relatively low, or a host of other reasons may contribute to minimize the problems in any given application.

For this reason, you can always try it out. The danger is that you simply won't know when the phenomenon occurs; you may hear a sound coming from the front that was actually produced from your rear center, and not even realize that sound effect was intended to come from the rear. This could happen frequently and you still may be oblivious. And perhaps that wouldn't bother you, even if you figured it was happening. But since this is a known issue, and it was enough reason for the entire industry to move to a pair of speakers in the rear, I still feel justified in giving the initial advice I did... only use a single speaker for the rear if you have to.
post #15 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigus View Post

The front rear reversal is a phenomenon in which we have trouble localizing sounds that are directly along the midline. We rely on several cues to determine location including level differences and arrival time differences between left and right ears. These are obviously absent when a mono source is along the midline. That leaves the way our outer ears modify incoming soundwaves dependent on the angle at which they approach our ears, commonly referred to as hrtf, or head related transfer function. People with complete loss of hearing on one side can still localize sounds fairly well relying on only this cue (obviously much better on the side with hearing intact). Strangely enough, with sounds along the midline and other cues gone, herd can fail us as well making it difficult to figure out if a sound is directly ahead of or behind us. This happens more frequently when there are visual cues in front, like a huge screen filled with action that our brains are happy to attribute as the source. We also struggle more when the source is above ear level (I suppose because in an evolutionary context things which ate us tended to be at or below eye level, not above). For this reason we can be fooled into thinking a high mounted center is actually at eye level more easily than one below eye level, which is why I and many others typically recommend a center be mounted above the screen rather than below if the choice must be made. And it also makes front rear reversal more likely when the rear center is mounted higher on a wall, which it often is. And this is why lexicon and others wishing to implement overhead effects don't have an actual overhead speaker in their configurations.

This was the result of research into surround sound methods and is why the industry quickly moved from 6.1 to 7.1 format (and why some of the companies more attuned to the research, like lexicon, skipped 6.1 entirely). This research showed that if two speakers separated far enough (it doesn't take much) reproduced the rear signal, the change in incident angle and change in hrtf was enough to stabilize the rear image. Strangely enough I don't recall where all I've run across this information. Probably in some Dolby labs white papers, aes articles, and likely many other places, though I can't recall any specific sources off hand nor does a ten second google attempt locate the obvious original sources.

In any case, this is all a theoretical explanation. While the effect is real, has been well documented, and was compelling enough to steer the industry away from a single rear channel, it doesn't mean any particular person will necessarily have a problem in his room. There may be room asymmetry, you may not sit quite on the midline, there may be furniture or other nearby objects in the rear of the room that produce strong localizable reflections, a horizontally configured center channel may have two midrange drivers separated just far enough, your rear center may be mounted relatively low, or a host of other reasons may contribute to minimize the problems in any given application.

For this reason, you can always try it out. The danger is that you simply won't know when the phenomenon occurs; you may hear a sound coming from the front that was actually produced from your rear center, and not even realize that sound effect was intended to come from the rear. This could happen frequently and you still may be oblivious. And perhaps that wouldn't bother you, even if you figured it was happening. But since this is a known issue, and it was enough reason for the entire industry to move to a pair of speakers in the rear, I still feel justified in giving the initial advice I did... only use a single speaker for the rear if you have to.

solid info. I'm part of the group where 7.1 wouldn't work in my room so 6.1 was the choice! Been pleased so I probably don't realize that phenomonem
post #16 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by angryht View Post

Really? Can you provide some?

You can read about imaging reversals in papers like the following: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16875231. There is also research by Damaske in 1971, Sakamoto in 1982, etc., which discuss the problems with sound originating along the medial plane (along the listener's centre line).

Floyd Toole mentions it in his book 'Sound Reproduction': "In general, a solo center-rear loudspeaker is not an attractive idea because movies are already center dominated by the relentless front-center channel. Some form of lateral expansion, spaciousness, or envelopment is a welcome relief. Then there are the front-back or back-front reversals that happen with sounds originating on or close to the median plane (the vertical plane running front to back through the head). It is normal, and it happens occasionally in normal life, most often with unfamiliar sounds. We reflexively rotate the head slightly to resolve such ambiguities, but with brief sounds that is not possible—and a lot of movie sound effects are brief. We make these mistakes most often with tonal, or narrow-band, sounds. It is a problem without a solution, and in movies it is aggravated by the presence of the picture, a logical place for directional ambiguities to find a default location. So back-to-front reversals are much more likely than front-to-back reversals."

This is the reason why Dolby, DTS and THX all recommend using 2 rear speakers for reproducing the mono surround-back channel on EX/ES soundtracks. Note that it is the only channel for which 2 speakers are recommended for playback.
Quote:
Originally Posted by someoledude View Post

I have not expereinced the problem Bigus described.

How do you know? You hear a quick sound effect in front of you while watching a movie. How would you ever know, let alone suspect, that it was intended to be heard from behind you?
post #17 of 18
Thread Starter 
Great stuff guys. I'll need to do some more reading. I used to read a lot of Floyd Toole et al but it's been awhile. Like I posted earlier, my friend loves his set up but it's very interesting to read about why the industry moved from 6.1 to 7.1 so quickly.
post #18 of 18
Sanjay, I guess it is possible, though I don't have any examples where I was surprised by a sound being out of place. I will watch and listen more closely. but this would have to be on the cable feed as I watch movies and blurays in direct analog 5.1. The way Audyssey set up levels for the 6th channel, I am not aware of any direct voice from the speaker. It blends in with the 2 dipole surrounds I have.
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