JVS DLA-RS45/X30 Calibration - Page 5

I thought mine had dimmed but they said I had to send the projector back. I don't want to box it up but I guess I may have to. I am going to try Friday with the wide 1 gamut.

I would be pretty upset personally if they tell me that, but I can wait until the lamp dims into oblivion so there will be no issues. Sending a PJ through two shipping processes is not worth it, it's too risky.

I would call them and speak to someone else. It is crazy to have to send in the projector for a bulb replacement.

I just last night used user1, 6000k, custom gamma 2.4, wide 1 color space along with the VideoEq. The results were very good. I didn't have to use the VideoEq at all for the greyscale. Even 100 ire with the wide1 was very close to being perfect. All that I had to do was just bring in the luminances of the 3 primaries and some hue errors. The results are very good. I don't know if my eye is critical enough to appreciate the difference of having the colors calibrated. According to Calman, standard color space leaves red and green undersaturated and blue way low in luminance. I like a less saturated picture anyway, but there is some satisfaction in knowing that the picture looks good to my eye and to the Calman/Colormunki also.

Incidentally my RS45 and Chromapure, Duo with autocal and i1Pro came back with very good results in terms of color gamut, gamma and greyscale, with the noticeable exception of undersaturated green and cyan, both hovering dE of around 4, ran multiple autocal and always ended up with the same issues. I use Wide1 color mode and Superwhite, changing these didn't seem to make any improvement.

Any similar experience out there?

Which color temperature did you use? Custom and 6000k were very close for me.

Using 6K, used 6500 as well but ended up pretty much the same.

The RS-45 has saturation tracking issues which appear to grow larger as the lamp ages, mainly from having to get more intense on the calibration (because re-calibrating affects the gamut), of course a lumagen reduces that some.

I would think that is the main thing to look at when calibrating this PJ, hence to try to balance the error between all sat. points. I have not tried it yet since no Lumagen, maybe one day I'll do it with the HTPC. Also when there are gamut errors and sat tracking issues that you cannot calibrate out of, what the meter tells you should only be the starting point, you can experiment by eye and then re-measure with the meter to get a better image --- if you know how to do it (it's not always easy). Having a perfectly calibrated device in a split-screen can also help so you can see the effects of what the calibration is doing.

My PJ has about a 100 hours on it, the undersaturation issues are quite consistent, will have to tinker a bit more, with naked eyes images seem to be in order, thanks guys.

I also use CP Pro while auto calibrating it looked like CP just basically gave up on green and cyan after multiple tries, I noticed during some adjustment actually made them worst but eventually the dE came back to where they were at the beginning, so I assume it's more a PJ ran out of steam kind of issues. My X30 has its iris all the way down and do you think there is other setting I could try to get the green and cyan back in order?

Not sure, better to post that question directly to Tom Huffman in the Chroma Pure thread in the Display Calibration category of the forums. He will answer you.

Here is the thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...174468&page=82

I think TH also owns the RS-45 (he had one before), so he is the expert in more ways than one on calibrating this thing.

Will do that, cheers.

Specifications
Calibrated with i1Pro Rev D 12" from screen. Gamma target 2.3. Used the AVS HD709 Black and White Clipping patterns first for Brightness and Contrast. Then used CalMAN HTPC Generator 1.2 creating 50% Window Patterns together with CalMAN 4.30 for Grayscale and Gamma.

Light controlled room, dark floor, bright ceiling and walls. At 3.9m throw distance ended up with 1.75x zoom with a Stewart StudioTek 130 110" screen (therefore Screen Adjust set to OFF according to JVC's online screen table PDF and HTML table).

X30 HDMI connected with HTPC with Sapphire's AMD Radeon 6570. Set Full RGB (0-255) in AMD Catalyst Control Center, therefore X30 HDMI set to Enhanced based on this post.


X30 Menu settings
Picture Mode Cinema (Since all posts and reviews suggest this)
Contrast +3 (Based on white clipping, could not get 234 to flash)
Brightness -4 (Based on black clipping, when 17 flashed image got gray)
Color, Tint 0 (Currently beyond my knowledge)
Color Temp. Correction Value 6000K (Was closer to 6500K, somewhere 6350K compared to 6800K)
Gain Red -42 (See question)
Gain Green 0 (Based on Curt Palme tip only use Red and Blue)
Gain Blue -16
Offset Red -4
Offset Green 0 (Based on Curt Palme tip only use Red and Blue)
Offset Blue +1 (See question)
Gamma Correction Value 2.5 (See question)
White, Red, Green, Blue Gamma points standard (See question)
Sharpness, Detail Enhance, RNR, MNR 0 (Based on all tips not altering this)
BNR Off (Based on all tips not altering this)
Color Space Standard (Currently beyond my knowledge)
Clear Motion Drive Off (On looks artificial in movies)
Lens Aperture -15 (Based on CalMAN tip and this page to get a high contrast)
Lamp Power Normal (Based on tips, noise and lamp lifetime)
HDMI Enhanced (Based on this post)
Color Space YCbCr(4:4:4) (Based on auto setting)
Zoom 1.75x
Screen Adjust Off (Based on this HTML table).
Blacklevel 0 (Seems to me most appropriate setting, raising will lower the black level)
Soft Ver. 25.056 (So far no reason to update to 28.056)
Deep Color 10bit (Would love to see 12bit, but cannot manage this so far)
Lamp Time 186H (90 hours a month


Post Calibration results
Grayscale final measurement Delta E at <3 for 0-100IRE. Gamma remeasured, looks quite lineair around 2.3. Remeasured Color Temperature 6450K, and remeasured fL 12.
I did not correct the Color, Tint and Color Space menu settings, because it is currently beyond my knowledge.


Questions
A. Grayscale
1. Is a Gain of -42 for Red not to much tweaking? This value seems a little bit high in my opinion, but on the other hand the 50-100 IRE grayscale becomes more lineair with Delta E values far less then 3.

2. Should I not increase the offset for Blue? I've read a tip in the second post not increasing the offsets, what's your opinion? I did this since blue was to low between 0-50 IRE, and could only get the grayscale lineair here by increasing it a little. In Part 7 Curt Palme suggests increasing the blue offset, but with the consequence a blue hump can appear, so he rethinks not doing this in the specific scenario. Is it something not to worry about I guess?

B. Gamma, fL and reflections
3. I did not refine the Gamma points, I've read on this page that it can create image posterization with X30. What's your opinion about refining the individual Gamma points for white, red, green and blue? Do or don't?

4. I was only able to get a measured Gamma target of 2.3 by setting the Gamma to 2.5. Is a 2.5 Gamma Correction to high?

5. CalMAN's HTPC Pattern can create window patterns through LAN so CalMAN automically opens the correct IRE and color patterns. These patterns are fixed to 50%, while manually I can lower it to something like 30% which seems more suitable. Since my walls and ceiling are not that dark I am wondering what impact a window size will have, because the reflections lowers the black level dramatically. What's your opinion about this issue?

6. I remeasured the total light output at 12 fL. I've read on old pages 12 fL is suitable for a room like mine, but lately I'm reading about 16 fL would be more suitable? Did opinions change about this value, should I be happy with 12 fL, is it acceptable in my particular room? I can increase the IRIS aperture, but I guess this will decrease the contrast and how brighter the image the more reflection issues I get.

C. Color Calibration
7. Based on the posts above I should keep the color space to standard? Some suggest wide, but most use standard.

8. When I use yCMS for the color calibration, should I not tweak the color and tint setting in the X30?


Edit
I've done a recalibration with contrast +2, brightness -3 and Temp at 6500K and Gamma at 2.4. I did not have to decrease the offset dramatically and did not have to increase an offset. I've attached some CalMAN screengrabs. Maybe someone can comment on this with more experience then me.

Perhaps a Pro calibrator can weigh in, but until then, here are my own personal thoughts on this...

1)The more you tweak colors, the more you lose brightness and you could introduce some potential contrast loss or posterization (but not likely from that one setting). That said, I think you should be fine.

2) You can try increasing the offset, but I probably wouldn't do it as it will probably cost you a loss of Native On/Off contrast and some added gamma error. That said, the best way for any NON-PRO to calibrate is to do a few different calibrations following different rules, then pick the one that looks best over varying content.

3) I personally used only the WHITE gamma point and increased the output of the gamma only using WHITE point in dark scenes (not specific colors). I did not notice any real posterization using this method, but never tried individual gamma point adjustment, because for one it's a very tedious process, and two it may introduce side effects like posterization. However, I wouldn't say you shouldn't try it, anything is worth a shot if you have the patience. The JVC does after-all have five (5) different slots for setting user calibrations.

4) The Gamma setting on many of our projectors is off, I have to use 2.6 to get near a 2.3 real-world gamma, so your setting does not surprise me. See my original posting above about adjusting gamma by hand (I know you have a meter, but that may give you some ideas). I would however check shadow detail a bit (one quick movie I can think of to test is Thor where they first fight on the Frost Troll planet, if gamma is set too high at 25 IRE and below, you will notice major black crush and loss of detail). There are plenty of other real world examples in other movies as well.

5) No real opinion or not 100% sure what your issue was.

6) The SMPTE standard is 14 fL, so 12 fL is just below that and 16 just above. Anywhere between 10 fL to 18 fL should be fine, 16 fL may provide a tad more punch in some bright scenes, depends. I would not worry about that as much as I would worry about the fact starting at 12 fL on a JVC means it will be a lot dimmer than that in maybe 200 hours.

7) You definitely want standard mode for color space without a CMS, if using a CMS I cannot tell you the best setting to start with (Tom Huffman should know, ask him in his ChromaPure thread). Wide is most likely the Adobe Wide color space used in some print editing, although to be honest some movies are so far off D65 I sometimes adjust things by hand after the fact (but I try not to), even though I have a more accurate purist calibration by default and adjusting by hand is often fruitless.

8) I thought about trying this myself, there could be some benefits, but even this could also cause posterization. I find the JVC's color fairly good most of the time in most scenes, but it has trouble with yellow and this is very noticeable in certain skin tones or especially in movies that tend to tint towards yellow. Hence, in movies that have a yellowish scene (like the beginning of the Immortals) the JVC tends to push the yellow beyond realistic points to make it cartoony.

I think you can probably get your gamut better than that. Try to get your 30-60 IRE gray scale flatter than the 80-100, as that will be more important probably since the gray scale calibration affects the gamut. I think once you get this tuned in a bit more exact in the middle, you may find it easier to get it a bit more accurate, but the blue luminance issue will still be there.

Just wanted to say thanks for the quick and dirty gamma calibration tips from coderguy for those of us without meters and calibration software. It really helped a lot with shadow detail and overall contrast. My lamp is at 400 hours now and dark movies weren't looking nearly as good as they were initially. I even notice a difference in normal scenes as well. Disney WOW was telling me my gamma was 1.3! I haven't rechecked it with the custom gamma preset, but it will be interesting to see if and how much that changed it. Great job and thanks again!

Quick comments.

It is fine to use the RGB offsets. Typically a calibrator will use a 20-30 ire for adjusting offset and an 75-90 ire for adjusting gain and then go back and forth between them. When close check the whole grayscale. Every display is different and sometimes you have to make tradeoffs.

When you adjust color or grayscale you will often lose brightness as most displays tend to be a little 'hot' in those areas. This JVC doesn't have a CMS so you can only make adjustments to color/ tint. It is fine to do that. You want to maximize your contrast setting without color shifting or clipping to maintain dynamic range. Depending on situation some will clip or color shift slightly to get the desired brightness.

SMPTE minimum standards
12 ft/l with film in the projector projecting a white screen
16 ft/l no film in the projector, often referred to as gate open. We shouldn't use this as we are always projecting something with digital.
14 ft/l digital cinema

There is nothing wrong with having more ft/l and desirable if dealing with ambient light. You can make it too bright but it won't bother most until typically > 35ft/l, but that is something of a personal preference. Most theaters have trouble reaching 12 ft/l and often only have 8-10 ft/l.

Gamma is a different discussion but you can get some fantastic results if you adjust the individual color gammas on this PJ. It takes a lot more time though.

Don't worry about the adjustment numbers if they seem too far off. Trust your instrumentation and make your setting accordingly, verify with your eyes. If something is way off it will be noticeable.

Being a good calibrator is part science and art. The art comes in by knowing where to make tradeoffs with non-reference displays, which is pretty much most consumer displays. A reference monitor cost about $40,000 for ~ 40" LCD so don't expect perfect in this price range.

I agree with the above, but would note two points:

At least one pro calibrator has reported posterization when using the individual color gamma points, and he is a respected tester and ISF calibrator in these forums. Whether or not this other person can do it with or without posterization on his particular unit, not sure but probably worth a try.

I believe it was also reported by some calibrators that the offsets are ok to use for negative values, but adding positive values throws the calibration far out of whack. I have not personally experimented that much with it. Maybe one day I will get more time to try some alternate calibration experiments.

Unless the HTPC is your only source you should not use it as your pattern generator, ATI/AMD cards are not sending reference signals (it's not way off but off just the same).

I should be doing an X30 on June 2nd and see that there is a bit of discrepancy on these units regarding best initial settings, have more reading to do on this model.

It appears gamma setting of 2.5 is actually close to 2.2 and I do not believe this projector can accurately handle a 2.4 gamma (but as I said still researching and could be inaccurate).

Basic Color/Tint calibration would be for you to adjust Color until Red Luma Y is as close as possible and then Tint until Cyan Hue x is as close as possible.

Don't get hung up on watching the dE, watch the actual numbers.

* Oh and obviously with an i1Pro alone you'll not get truly accurate reads under 30 IRE.

Jason

Thank you Coderguy, BobL and others for answering my questions, I've read them very closely. Much appreciation!

I've done a recalibration. Here are my settings and attachements with final measurements. Final temp is 6520K, Gamma 2.2.

Delta E all less then 1.5. Based on the values I think the colors are not perfect, but all Delta L's are less then 2.3.

Colors and Tint
1. Decreased Delta L for the primaries: 1.8 (R), 1.4 (G), 0.3 (B).
2. Delta H for the secondaries somewhat the same: 5.3 (C), 6.5 (M), 0.9 (Y).
3. Got absolute luminance for primaries more close: -7.7 (R), 4.4 (G), - 1.8 (B).
4. Based on Delta E for the primaries and secondaries I guess only blue and yellow are okay. But in CalMAN they say the first 3 points are more of importance. I should definitly read more on the 'art' of colors and tint.

X30 Menu settings (meter used: X-Rite i1Pro Rev. D)
Picture Mode Cinema
Gamma Preset 2.6
Contrast +8
Brightness -2
Color 5
Tint -1
Temp. Correction Value 6000K
Gain Red -26
Gain Green 0
Gain Blue -11
Offset Red -6
Offset Green 0
Offset Blue 0
Color Space Standard
Gamma Correction Value 2.6
Lens Aperture -12
Lamp Power Normal
HDMI Enhanced
Room 100% Light Controlled, No Batcave
Screen Stewart StudioTek 130
Screen Size, Throw Distance 110", 155"
Zoom 1.75x
Screen Adjust Off

Lens aperture -12 at normal lamp mode - is this not too dark for a 110" diagonal screen ?

Not on a relatively new lamp, the JVC pumps out 900+ lumens in best mode near closest throw, and more like 1200+ in 3D mode on lamp high.

Even on my 400 hour old lamp, I use about -5 aperture or so with a 106" HP screen. My lamp has lost a LOT of brightness though (almost 50%). However, in 3D mode with 400 hours on the lamp (and given my brightness loss is near worst case), then you can still watch 3D on a 106" HP 2.4 gain screen and still get a VERY bright image even in lamp low by using a torch mode calibration.

When my lamp was new, and on lamp high I was able to tweak 3D mode to give me just right at 1200 lumens (and I am 3/4 to farthest throw). I think I could have gotten it to 1300+ lumens by adjusting the 3D mode settings on a new lamp in lamp high. Even the default 3D torch mode does right at or just over 1200 lumens at closest throw. My calculator is using very conservative numbers for the JVC, but I am averaging it out, but my own measurments shows the JVC best mode at closest throw actually right at 1000 lumens (998) and the absolute brightest mode at closest throw (after tweaking the 3D mode) was just about 1350 lumens. However, my calculator uses the averages between about 10 peoples' measurements. I measured with only 1 hour on the lamp, even after 20-50 hours though some of that will already be lost (figure 5% to 10% or so).

It was WAY too bright in 3D mode with lamp high with the Aperture open on a 106" HP screen when the lamp was new, now it is about right, although even then I can still run lamp low and it's absolutely bright in 3D still (even after 40% to 50% lumen loss on the lamp). Now I can afford about 25% more brightness loss before 3D starts getting too dim, and maybe even 50% more loss.

That's what makes a relatively small HP 2.4 gain screen (100" to 120") so beneficial with the JVC. The only real problem is the Yellow tint in some movies, if I try to fight it too much I do lose a lot of brightness.

Mind the StudioTek is a 1.3 gain screen. I think is absolutely bright enough for watching 2D, but that's subjective I guess.

I do measure a 16fL after calibration, so that's okay according the standards.

Next for creating a high contrast it gives me the option of opening the iris a lot futher when the lamp decreases over time.

This is awesome and it certainly makes me want to actually calibrate everything.It only shows saturation and hue, but doesn't include luminance.

Ah, ok; my screens gain is 1.0; that's why I wonder cause when I would set the lens aperture to -15, it would be a bit too dark for my sense.

Resurrecting this great thread with a question. I will soon be getting a new X30.

I have an i1 Pro (purchased about 8 years ago to calibrate my printers and screens for digital photograpy), and am thinking about purchasing the Calman software or giving HCFR a whirl.

Plan on using the AVS HD 709 disc for test patterns although have not understood if either Calman or HCFR come with their own patterns making the AVS disc unnecessary.

I've read the X30 gamma is typically out out of the box, and that it drifts over time. I do understand that calibrating a projector implies you go back to it every 50-100 hours or so and recalibrate, but my question is whether people think it better to wait for say 50 hours or so on the bulb or if I should calibrate the unit new out of the box?

Also - earlier in this thread someone claimed there was a firmware bug on the X30 giving "wrong" colours when ceiling mounted. Any confirmation or clarification on that? My set up is ceiling mounted in a completely light controlled room, screen is a Da-Lite High Power and throw distance can be varied anywhere from 2.5-6 meters - which actually brings me to my third question - would I be best off to try and set up the X30 as close as I can to the screen or farther away?

Thanks and best wishes,

Dave M

Sniff sniff...so no reply to my earlier post and I now have even another question. Hope one of you X30 owners can come in on this.

It seems from what I read in this thread that the Cinema mode is the one that gets you started with the best baseline from which to calibrate.

However, according to the manual that mode seems to require the highest lamp setting. As I have a completely darkened room I was hoping to get away with the lower of the two lamp settings. Does that mean that if I want to use the lower powered bulb mode I will need to calibrate from a user-defined mode as my starting point rather than the Cinema mode?

Thanks,

Dave M

Hi Dave,

I think only the rs55 (and up) had the wrong colours when ceiling mounted, but that was fixed by a f/w update so just make sure you are using the latest f/w for the X30 (a good thing to check for anyway before calibrating).

Best starting point to calibrate is user mode, standard color profile and 6500K color temp, normal (low) lamp. Select a gamma 2.4 or 2.5 to get 2.2 or 2.3 average, and decide whether this is acceptable to your eyes for the first 50 hours or not.

If not, nothing stops you from calibrating right away. The bulb will change almost as much during the first 50 hours and during the next 100, I think this rule was there when projectors were much further away from the standard initially, and to make sure you wouldn't have to pay for a calibration if there was something wrong with the unit or the bulb, meaning you'd have to pay again when you got the replacement unit/bulb.

Make sure you select the iris settings before you calibrate (leaving some headroom as you will lose some brightness calibrating). The greyscale will change with the iris settings, which is why you have to recalibrate as the lamp dims and you open the iris (on top of the color temp of the bulb changing with time).

Re your patterns questions, you will need the AVS disc unless you use an HTPC or a laptop as a source to use the internal patterns with HCFR or the HTPC generator/PC Client with Calman. Usually this throws a lot of PC related issues, like black levels etc, so be prepared for a steep learning curve. General advice is to use the AVS disc or a pattern generator like the Radiance or the Accupel if you want a more automated but still accurate process.

Better ask questions in threads related to each of these producs once you have decided which tool to use. As you can see, most owners either have solved their issues or are coveting the new models and this thread has been mostly deserted.

Good luck!
Edited by Manni01 - 11/29/12 at 5:18am

Got it Manni - thanks for a hugely helpful post. I'll set it up and calibrate out of the box - using a user defined mode on the low lamp setting. I am getting a new Oppo 105 blu-ray player at about the same time (hope both of these arrive next week), so will burn the AVS disc and then play it through the Oppo for calibration. Any opinion on set up closer to, or farther from, the screen? I've read somewhere installing the projector further from the screen decreases brightness (expected) but increases contrast.

Thanks again,

Dave

Many factors re placement, depending on wether you have brightness to spare or not (especially in 3D), which is of course related to your screen size.

It is true that if you move the projector further away to display the same image size with the same iris setting you will gain on/off contrast, but if you are closer you will likely be able to close the iris further, which means you will gain some on/off...

Another way to say this is if you can have enough brightness with the iris fully closed and the PJ as far back as you can, then you will get maximum contrast.

But if you need to open up the iris because you are further away to get enough brightness, then you are also losing on/off (but gaining ANSI contrast!).

Another element to take into account is that if you are further away your picture goes through a smaller area of the lens to display the same screen size, so you are less subject to lens aberrations etc.

I'd say go as far back as you can afford to, taking into account that you are going to lose brightness FAST, so depending how frequently you want to be changing the bulbs, you might need to be closer than what it looks like with a new bulb.

Finally I'd suggest to play with a brightness calculator (like this one) to see what you might get changing each variable, and also have a look at Cine4home's detailed analysis of the rs45, as it will give you detailed info re brightness/contrast for each zoom setting (I don't have the link but it shouldn't be too difficutl to find).

I hope this will help you get started, again try to post in more "alive threads" when you've made some progress as I'm not really monitoring this one (just took pity on you when I saw your sniff sniff:)).

Good luck again!