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JVS DLA-RS45/X30 Calibration - Page 2

post #31 of 173
12/25/11 at 1:55am
If your gamma is too high at a given input percentage, just start clicking the level at that input up, either by altering red and blue and green separately, or by just altering white at first. It'll take several attempts and lots of remeasuring to get things where you want them, but you're on the right track. To move your gamma by 0.1, it'll take a good 8-10 clicks or so.

I'm quite surprised you're above three, though, if things are measuring correctly. That seems ridiculous.

What are you using for a meter and software?
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post #32 of 173
12/25/11 at 2:55am
Gamma measurements are all related to the reading of 100 IRE. To make sure that no other adjustments have been made that could influence it, it is worth taking a reading with brightness 0, contrast 0, HDMI standard. Some of the reports I have seen with gamma shooting off the charts upwards, or dipping sharply at 90% are usually the consequence of other adjustments that have been made. That being said the projectors do vary, with some sloping downwards and some sloping upwards out of the box. But when you get really radical movements there is usually another explanation.
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post #33 of 173
12/25/11 at 3:51am
I thought that the different 'wide' modes were relating to colour gamut, so pulling back on the red whitebalance control(s) will mess up the greyscale (unless this is also out of course), though typically red is the 'weaker' colour in terms of greyscale on the displays I've calibrated, so not usually the one you need to reduce.

Keep up the good work guys...I'm getting tempted to jump in myself with one which would be used with a Mini3D, so interested in feedback and calibration results with that. I can achieve techincally 'perfect' results with my HD350 plus Mini3D (sensor accuracy notwithstanding) so I'd hope to be able to do this with it's replacement...just with extra contrast.
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post #34 of 173
12/25/11 at 11:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Dave View Post

If your gamma is too high at a given input percentage, just start clicking the level at that input up, either by altering red and blue and green separately, or by just altering white at first. It'll take several attempts and lots of remeasuring to get things where you want them, but you're on the right track. To move your gamma by 0.1, it'll take a good 8-10 clicks or so.

I'm quite surprised you're above three, though, if things are measuring correctly. That seems ridiculous.

What are you using for a meter and software?

I'm using the calman v4 with the c6 meter

Contrast 15
Brightness-6
Normal lamp
Aperture 0
Standard color
6500k
Batcave

All the gamma settings do it I have tried all of them. If I tweak with the contrast I can get it to stay under 3 up to around 70ire but still shoots up after that and that's with contrast at 30 lol
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post #35 of 173
12/25/11 at 11:34am
I think you guys are good. Zombie and I, mostly Zombie, recalibrated an RS45 to his 2.8HP screen (appr 12 ft wide 1.78) and our contrast and brightness settings using the AVS disc were close to what was reported above and we set the iris to full open and used the stabdar color space. We did it all using high lamp. Gamma was set to off and gave us decent results.
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post #36 of 173
12/25/11 at 12:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jman9999 View Post

All the gamma settings do it I have tried all of them. If I tweak with the contrast I can get it to stay under 3 up to around 70ire but still shoots up after that and that's with contrast at 30 lol

If the contrast is at +30 then this might explain the gamma going off above 70 IRE (doesn't your greyscale dE go off as well?). You don't say if you are using HDMI enhanced or standard, but even enhanced I suspect +30 would be far too high, for standard nearer 0 (or perhaps less) might be necessary (based on experience with other older models FWIW). If you meant -30 contrast then something seems to be wrong, so maybe you'd need to manually adjust a custom gamma after correctly setting the contrast first (check for colour runout too using a 100IRE pattern as you adjust contrast).
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post #37 of 173
12/25/11 at 2:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post


If the contrast is at +30 then this might explain the gamma going off above 70 IRE (doesn't your greyscale dE go off as well?). You don't say if you are using HDMI enhanced or standard, but even enhanced I suspect +30 would be far too high, for standard nearer 0 (or perhaps less) might be necessary (based on experience with other older models FWIW). If you meant -30 contrast then something seems to be wrong, so maybe you'd need to manually adjust a custom gamma after correctly setting the contrast first (check for colour runout too using a 100IRE pattern as you adjust contrast).

No my contrast is set at 15 & brightness at -6 I was just playing with the setting to see what could affect it
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post #38 of 173
12/25/11 at 3:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

Keep up the good work guys...I'm getting tempted to jump in myself with one which would be used with a Mini3D, so interested in feedback and calibration results with that. I can achieve techincally 'perfect' results with my HD350 plus Mini3D (sensor accuracy notwithstanding) so I'd hope to be able to do this with it's replacement...just with extra contrast.

if you end up doing this I'm sure many of us here would love to see the results. I myself are likely to be ordering a Mini3D and some calibration tools this week but have never calibrated anything beyond setting basic things like brightness/contrast/color.
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post #39 of 173
12/25/11 at 8:21pm
Has anyone noticed that keystoning even +/- 1 causes massive loss in quality. I have no way to measure it but to my eye the crush and pixilation becomes very apparent.


Which sucks because now I am going to have to by an extension for my mount to keep for using keystone.


Anyone else notice this?

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post #40 of 173
12/26/11 at 9:15am
digital keystone will kill the picture on any projector
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post #41 of 173
12/27/11 at 9:56am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by abjonesiii View Post

Has anyone noticed that keystoning even +/- 1 causes massive loss in quality. I have no way to measure it but to my eye the crush and pixilation becomes very apparent.


Which sucks because now I am going to have to by an extension for my mount to keep for using keystone.


Anyone else notice this?


Quote:
Originally Posted by jcastle View Post

digital keystone will kill the picture on any projector


Right. find a way not to use it, even living with a little keystone that you can move "off screen" with a little zoom.
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post #42 of 173
12/28/11 at 7:33am
Think I wasted my money.

I just got my CalMan4 and XRite IDisplay Pro package yesterday and spent almost 4-5 hrs trying to calibrate my RS45 with no success so far.

Trying different combinations, I found out that the following settings were the ones that got me closer to my target:
Color Space: standard
Temperature: 65K
Target gamma: 2.3 (batcave)
Gamma: Custom (see below)
Mode: custom
Contrast: -1
Brightness: 0

I created a custom gamma curve and I was able to get a perfect match to my target but I was stuck at the colorimetry stage.

I can see that my colors are off and the charts also prove it. The luminance of the blues is too low and the primary colors are all over the place. dEs are around 10-15.

The frustrating part is that I cannot do nothing about it. Only controls available are Color & Tint. Bringing color to -24 got things better slightly but I don't like the picture.

I feel like I wasted my money since with no CMS control, I wasn't able to accomplish much after spending $500 on the calibration package.

I am definitely new to calibration and could have done a lot of things wrong. My advice though to all RS45 owners (which I'd like to open for discussion) is to not spend the money on a calibration software/meter unless a external video processor like the Lumagen or DVDO is part of the pacakge.
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post #43 of 173
12/28/11 at 9:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rukus29 View Post

I myself are likely to be ordering a Mini3D and some calibration tools this week but have never calibrated anything beyond setting basic things like brightness/contrast/color.

So if I pick up a Mini this week, what is the best meter and software package to go for without breaking the bank? I think it's possible to get meters in the $150 range? does it pay to step up to the meters in the $250 range?

what about software?

is something like a chromapure standard/Display 3 combo pretty standard and accurate?

thanks!
rukus
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post #44 of 173
12/28/11 at 10:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mouradb View Post

Think I wasted my money.

I just got my CalMan4 and XRite IDisplay Pro package yesterday and spent almost 4-5 hrs trying to calibrate my RS45 with no success so far.

Best thing to do is to use an HTPC with CMS software (yCMS is one), calibrate with that and see if the improvement is worth it, then you will know whether or not to buy a video processor.
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post #45 of 173
12/28/11 at 3:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Best thing to do is to use an HTPC with CMS software (yCMS is one), calibrate with that and see if the improvement is worth it, then you will know whether or not to buy a video processor.


Thanks Coderguy, but I think it is too late for me now (not sure I can return the package).

So far, with what I've got, I improved definitely my gamma, I know that my colors are off, and that I can't do nothing about them. I feel worse
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post #46 of 173
12/28/11 at 3:02pm
Is the error visible as a yellow push in some cases?
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post #47 of 173
12/28/11 at 3:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Is the error visible as a yellow push in some cases?

Yes. As of now, my picture is on the yellowish side. Once I figure how (Calman DIY edition does not include reports), I'll post later some charts.
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post #48 of 173
12/28/11 at 3:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mouradb View Post

I feel like I wasted my money since with no CMS control, I wasn't able to accomplish much after spending $500 on the calibration package.

I am definitely new to calibration and could have done a lot of things wrong. My advice though to all RS45 owners (which I'd like to open for discussion) is to not spend the money on a calibration software/meter unless a external video processor like the Lumagen or DVDO is part of the pacakge.

I'm not sure what you expected as one of the main differences between the lower priced models and the mid/high models is the lack of CMS. The difference is that since last year's X3/RS40 and this year's X30/RS45 the reviews seem to have shown that the colours aren't too far off once the greyscale is calibrated, so I'm surprised at your results.

It seems to be known that the blue luminance is low (so even an external CMS would have to do extreme things to correct this - which will involve further loss of brightness), but your dEs of 10-15 seem extreme. It's less critical to get blue perfect as it's less noticable to our eyes (though the dEs are weighted to take this into account).

http://www.avforums.com/review/JVC-X...or-Review.html

In this review he used 'Standard' colour space (like you said) but his dEs are less than 3 according to the text in the review. He is also using Calman, though not sure what meter.

Are you measuring at 75% or 100% as the later might be subject to clipping and it may be best to try to optimise at 75% anyway as there is little content at 100% in any case?
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post #49 of 173
12/28/11 at 3:42pm
In that review it also says 3d performance is "reference", reference to what, lol...
My color was very good at first, then it started drifting.

I think his issue is just calibration mainly though.
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post #50 of 173
12/28/11 at 3:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rukus29 View Post

So if I pick up a Mini this week, what is the best meter and software package to go for without breaking the bank? I think it's possible to get meters in the $150 range? does it pay to step up to the meters in the $250 range?

what about software?

is something like a chromapure standard/Display 3 combo pretty standard and accurate?

thanks!
rukus

Since you're investing in the mini3D, I would recommend not skimping on the meter. On my end, I ended up getting the Calman DIY with the xrite IDisplay pro (msrp 440). The same package with Chromapure is msrp 595.
As you can read from my previous post, I do need (later) to get the mini3D since without the CMS (in the RS45), calibration does not go far.
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post #51 of 173
12/28/11 at 3:50pm
I think you are giving up too easily, those errors should be able to be reduced more is my guess.

Even if the error were that bad, there are tricks to fooling the eye if you have to.
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post #52 of 173
12/28/11 at 4:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

I think you are giving up too easily, those errors should be able to be reduced more is my guess.

Even if the error were that bad, there are tricks to fooling the eye if you have to.

Tend to agree with this as my HD350 with my Mini3D bypassed (so it's native colour gamut) has dEs of 15 or so for green and red. The RS40/45 should be closer than that from all the reviews I've seen. I'm sure a bit more checking and adjustment would reduce it (or measure at 75% as I suggested if this wasn't done).

Once you get a Mini3D it might be better to use a 'wide' mode as the Mini3D will be able to reduce the gamut oversaturation as with my HD350. I can get technically perfect results with this setup, so it should be possible with the RS45 too.
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post #53 of 173
12/28/11 at 4:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

Are you measuring at 75% or 100% as the later might be subject to clipping and it may be best to try to optimise at 75% anyway as there is little content at 100% in any case?

Was measuring at 75% - software was clear about it.

Your comment about colors being not far off once gray scale is calibrated is making me think twice about the order of calibration steps.

The documentation of the CalMan software has the (big picture) order as the following: brightness, contrast, gamma, gray scale tracking and color gamut. The workflow in the software has the order as brightness, contrast, gamma, color gamut, and then gray scale tracking.

I did notice the difference yesterday and decided to follow the software workflow. I got as far as the color gamut (which requires CMS) and haven't done yet the gray scale tracking step. I'll finish tonight and see if that makes a difference.

I knew bout the "low" contribution of the blue luminance to the overall picture quality and my goal is just trying to get the 2 other primary colors (red, green) in-line with it somehow. Not sure if it can be done without CMS and according to your post, not sure if anything can be done about blue even with a Lumagen.
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post #54 of 173
12/28/11 at 4:21pm
If you do the greyscale last, then can you not go back and recheck the colour gamut? In Chromapure you do the greyscale and gamma first (or rather it doesn't stop me from doing this). The colour is effected by greyscale, so it seems odd to do this afterwards (to me anyway). I'd get the gamma and greyscale as good as you can, then recheck the colour gamut and do what you can with the colour and tint (within reason, I wouldn't go over +/- 10 on either control, preferably less). I did similar on a Sony TV I have in my kitchen: Fairly close colour once greyscale adjusted and small colur/tint adjustments to trim it up (it has no CMS either).

You may be able to correct the blue luminance with the Mini3D, but the way you might do this is by reducing the white luminance down which means you lose brightness. You could also try using the main colour control on the projector along with the Mini3D, but this might require some trial and error.

I'm not likely to get an X30 for some time so I can't help with hands on calibration, I can only speak from my HD350 plus Mini3D experience and I'm not sure how much of that transfers to the newer model. It may require a different approach, but I hope I can be of some help before I'm a gang member.
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post #55 of 173
12/28/11 at 4:25pm
In CalMan, I can go to any previous step and do it again. I'll do the grayscale tracking tonight and I'll check back on the color.
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post #56 of 173
12/28/11 at 7:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mouradb View Post

Think I wasted my money.

I just got my CalMan4 and XRite IDisplay Pro package yesterday and spent almost 4-5 hrs trying to calibrate my RS45 with no success so far.

Trying different combinations, I found out that the following settings were the ones that got me closer to my target:
Color Space: standard
Temperature: 65K
Target gamma: 2.3 (batcave)
Gamma: Custom (see below)
Mode: custom
Contrast: -1
Brightness: 0

I created a custom gamma curve and I was able to get a perfect match to my target but I was stuck at the colorimetry stage.

I can see that my colors are off and the charts also prove it. The luminance of the blues is too low and the primary colors are all over the place. dEs are around 10-15.

The frustrating part is that I cannot do nothing about it. Only controls available are Color & Tint. Bringing color to -24 got things better slightly but I don't like the picture.

I feel like I wasted my money since with no CMS control, I wasn't able to accomplish much after spending $500 on the calibration package.

I am definitely new to calibration and could have done a lot of things wrong. My advice though to all RS45 owners (which I'd like to open for discussion) is to not spend the money on a calibration software/meter unless a external video processor like the Lumagen or DVDO is part of the pacakge.

Well...and I write this knowing there may be major blowback....unless you have the time to learn to calibrate to ISF standards, AND are willing to pay for the gear needed, I respectfully suggest that it pays to have your projector calibrated by an ISF-certified installer.

Don't get me wrong, what's been posted here is tremendous work. However, it's been my personal experience that there are so many variables that can be at play, starting with screen size and gain, that there is no "one size fits all" way to really calibrate a given projector. Not everyone should be fiddling with the Service Menu.

I like to tweak as well, but at the 100hr mark, I'm bringing in a real pro to do it right.

Again, no disrespect to the thread starter or other contributors. All I'm suggesting is that there is a cost-to-benefit ratio to anything. If you've got the time, patience, and equipment, go for it. Heck, you might be able to start up your own consulting business.
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post #57 of 173
12/28/11 at 8:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mouradb View Post

Since you're investing in the mini3D, I would recommend not skimping on the meter. On my end, I ended up getting the Calman DIY with the xrite IDisplay pro (msrp 440). The same package with Chromapure is msrp 595.
As you can read from my previous post, I do need (later) to get the mini3D since without the CMS (in the RS45), calibration does not go far.

I didn't think $250 for a meter was skimping but perhaps I was wrong? Is there THAT much of a difference between the iDisplay 3 that I was considering and the iDisplay 3 Pro you mentioned? From what I was reading the difference didn't seem big enough to justify an extra $150 for the Pro version. Thoughts?

Also, what's the main difference between Calman and Chromapure?

Thanks!
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post #58 of 173
12/29/11 at 12:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rukus29 View Post

I didn't think $250 for a meter was skimping but perhaps I was wrong? Is there THAT much of a difference between the iDisplay 3 that I was considering and the iDisplay 3 Pro you mentioned? From what I was reading the difference didn't seem big enough to justify an extra $150 for the Pro version. Thoughts?

Also, what's the main difference between Calman and Chromapure?

Thanks!

With CalMan/Spectracal, the difference in price between the Pro and the OEM is $40. That gets you the full retail package that includes also the software for PC/Monitor calibration + more reliable measurements. Chromapure site at http://www.chromapure.com/products-d3pro.asp has more details.

Personally, I thought the $40 difference is worth it since I'll (eventually) calibrate the 4 PC monitors I have in the house.

As far differences between Chromapure and CalMan, can't go wrong with either. From the little reading I did, it seems that Chromapure is easier to use but I couldn't confirm that since there is no trial version to play with. On the other hand, you can download a trial version of CalMan and try it yourself.
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post #59 of 173
12/29/11 at 1:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by johng View Post

Well...and I write this knowing there may be major blowback....unless you have the time to learn to calibrate to ISF standards, AND are willing to pay for the gear needed, I respectfully suggest that it pays to have your projector calibrated by an ISF-certified installer.

Johng:

Agree fully. I've never pretended that my exercise in calibration with my $500 equipment and rudimentary experience can replace the work of an ISF-certified installer. As I mentioned in previous posts, this is just an excuse for me to learn something new. If I'm successful, then I will have a better picture (my eyes are always the best judge), I'll save probably some money if I can find the time to calibrate the other 3 TVs in the house. If unsuccessful (the state I'm still at now), I'll just revert back the built-in settings.

I haven't given up yet. Turned out that the meter I got is defective. Spectracal is fedex'ing me a replacement. I will have probably better luck with it.
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post #60 of 173
12/30/11 at 8:31am
Carada BW screen

Aperture: -7
Color, Brightness, Tint, Sharpness, etc.: 0
Color space: wide 1
Custom gamma 2.4

Calman 4
DVD Duo or Lumagen Mini-3D (results are the same)


I cannot seem to get GREEN dialed in. I have been following Calman's work flows, but no joy. Eventually, GREEN always comes in with too low x,y values - see attached for before and after.

Note: please disregard the setting numbers, as they are not maintained. Also my focus was not on gray scale, but to get gamut dialed in correctly.

Any pointers on how I can get GREEN to align?

TIA!
_____
Axel
LL
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