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JVS DLA-RS45/X30 Calibration - Page 3

post #61 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by mouradb View Post

Johng:

Agree fully. I've never pretended that my exercise in calibration with my $500 equipment and rudimentary experience can replace the work of an ISF-certified installer. As I mentioned in previous posts, this is just an excuse for me to learn something new. If I'm successful, then I will have a better picture (my eyes are always the best judge), I'll save probably some money if I can find the time to calibrate the other 3 TVs in the house. If unsuccessful (the state I'm still at now), I'll just revert back the built-in settings.

I haven't given up yet. Turned out that the meter I got is defective. Spectracal is fedex'ing me a replacement. I will have probably better luck with it.

Good man! If you like the challenge I encourage you to keep trying. No one gets it right the first time. The people who post on this forum are amount the top 1% of home theater enthusiasts and they are often willing to share and offer help/suggestions.

Even though I've received training in video calibration (one ISF course, and Advanced certification as a Home THX installer...back when THX Home was still part of Lucasfilm), the demands upon my time are such that I can't keep up with all the changes. With my new '45', I've done a basic 'quick and dirty' adjustment, then bring out a buddy who is fully ISF certified and has all the gear. It'll be interesting to see how much farther he can improve an already great-looking projector.

Oh, I'm running my RS45 15'6" from the screen, ceiling mounted onto a 94" 16x9 Stewart Firehawk (1st gen). Gain is 1.3. Room is light controlled, but not a Bat Cave
post #62 of 173
Thread Starter 
I've gotten similar results in the past with my Eye One meter. It simply was not able to measure green accurately.

Got a new meter, issue went away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axel View Post

Carada BW screen

Aperture: -7
Color, Brightness, Tint, Sharpness, etc.: 0
Color space: wide 1
Custom gamma 2.4

Calman 4
DVD Duo or Lumagen Mini-3D (results are the same)


I cannot seem to get GREEN dialed in. I have been following Calman's work flows, but no joy. Eventually, GREEN always comes in with too low x,y values - see attached for before and after.

Note: please disregard the setting numbers, as they are not maintained. Also my focus was not on gray scale, but to get gamut dialed in correctly.

Any pointers on how I can get GREEN to align?

TIA!
_____
Axel
post #63 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightfly85 View Post

I've gotten similar results in the past with my Eye One meter. It simply was not able to measure green accurately.

Got a new meter, issue went away.

The measurements were taken with a brand new C6. That said, my old Eye One LT gives me similar results.

_____
Axel
post #64 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axel View Post

The measurements were taken with a brand new C6. That said, my old Eye One LT gives me similar results.

_____
Axel

It looks like you selected Color Temp = Cool ? Why ?

Scott..................
post #65 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott_R_K View Post

It looks like you selected Color Temp = Cool ? Why ?

Scott..................

Nope, it's 6500 K.
_____
Axel
post #66 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by johng View Post

With my new '45', I've done a basic 'quick and dirty' adjustment, then bring out a buddy who is fully ISF certified and has all the gear. It'll be interesting to see how much farther he can improve an already great-looking projector.

IMO a pro can only do a tiny bit better if you have a good meter, but if you have a display with difficult calibration options, the pro will know where to make the concessions, that is where the pro's really come in handy.

Other than that, I think people can mostly calibrate like a pro on some of these projectors as long as they spend some time with it.
post #67 of 173
For those of us using HTPC's as our primary media player, is using software such as yCMS (any other better options out there?) just or almost as effective as the lumagen to compliment the RS-45 and its lack of CMS?

I am on the fence about buying a $500 meter like the previous poster did and not being able to fully take advantage of it.
post #68 of 173
I don't think the gamut errors are very visible to the naked eye to be honest. I have a bit of a yellow tint to skin tones, but I was able to tune some of it out.
post #69 of 173
I very much doubt anyone could reliably pick the gamut errors with the JVC in a double blind test and they certainly will not be visible in skin tones. A CMS is just not necessary, just get the grey scale calibrated and all will be good.
post #70 of 173
Using CalMan v4 with an i1Profiler Pro, Carada 1.0 BW screen, I spend a good time learning the calibration process. I was initially frustrated with my findings (see earlier posts) but turned out to be a defective meter.
In terms of settings, the few surprises I bumped into are the following:
1. Lens Aperture set to zero was the only setting that got me a luminance within the acceptable range of 14-30 fL (theater room w/projector). With aperture set to zero, I get a luminance of 32 fL (bulb on normal)
2. The 6000K setting for color temperature is the closest to 65K (it gives about 6,350K). The 6500K settings gives about 6,800K.
3. The ‘SuperWhite’ setting for HDMI with the Standard color space where the easiest to work with in terms of grayscale calibration and color gamut (in a way – see below).
4. For my lighting condition (theater room - no light), I choose a target gamma of 2.3

Since the RS45 lacks CMS, I was not able to do much with the color gamut. Only controls in my hands were the Color and Hue/Tint. I did modify the color setting slightly trying to control the off-blue but couldn't do much here since fixing the blue breaks the other primiary and secondary colors.

At the end of the exercise, I feel that I have a better picture. Numerically, my grayscale and gamma are perfect, dEs are great (<3) except for the blue. My hues slightly off. I'll try to get accustomed to these settings for few days and if not happy, go back to the drawing board. I might consider adding a Radiance if I convince myself that CMS is not "over-rated"

My settings as they stand now are as follows:

Picture Mode: Custom (started with Cinema)
Contrast = 5
Brightness = 0
Color = -1
Tint = 0
Color Temp = 6000k
Gamma: Custom (I can provide values for my custom curve but note sure it makes sense for someone else to use)
Sharpness = 0
NR = 0
Color Space = Standard
CMD = off
Lens Aperture = 0
Lamp Power = Normal

Attached are some charts for my calibration steps:
Before2.jpg: shows initial settings before calibration
gamma-before: shows initial gamma
gamma-after: shows gamma after calibration (a custom gamma curve was edited with gamma=2.3 as the target)
grayscale.jpg: shows grayscale after calibration (calibrated the 30% and 80%
and the other values fell in correctly)
after-std.jpg: color gamut after calibration but before grayscale calibration
after-std+grayscale.jpg: color gamut after calibration but after grayscale calib.
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post #71 of 173
Other charts (since I can't attach more than 3 per post)
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post #72 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by mouradb View Post

Other charts (since I can't attach more than 3 per post)

Wow, mouradb, this is outstanding work! I wish I had some information to give back to you. Once my ISF calibration is completed, I'll post the results.
post #73 of 173
Gamma: Custom (I can provide values for my custom curve but note sure it makes sense for someone else to use)

Can you post the custom gamma curve? Just curious!
post #74 of 173
Why is blue luminance so low?
post #75 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Smith View Post

Why is blue luminance so low?

This is part of the "imperfections" of the hardware. In the case of the RS45, it is the blue. My Toshiba has too much green and we hear a lot about the 'red push' - which is too much red.

Obviously, this is the goal of the calibration. On the good news side, the blue is the least perceptible by the human eye and as you can see from the gamut chart, that is the color with the smallest color space. Of course, for us reading this forum, this is not good enough and we want perfection whether we see it or not

Out of curiosity, I tested the color gamut for Cinema, Natural and Film all set at the default settings (I did an explicit reset for each) but with HDMI on 'Super White'. The attached charts show in all cases that the blue luminance is off, slightly less in Natural mode (but then other things get worse here). It is the worst in Film mode (but almost most colors are spot on here except for cyan, magenta and of course blue).

My calibration (previous post) was off the Cinema mode. If I can find the time, I'll retry using Film and Natural (with CMD=off) later on and see if I can something better.
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post #76 of 173
Interesting, hard to believe that large of an error wouldnt be noticeable. did the rs40 have this problem too? I have about 40 hours on my 45 and am going to be calibrating it soon. I also picked up a Lumagen XS. What's the best mode on the 45 to calibrate gamut with? From what I've read in the other threads it should be set to a color space mode where the points are just outside rec.709.
post #77 of 173
Steve Smith:
The best mode would be -as you mentioned- a mode where the primaries are outside the triangle (HDTV/Rec.709 triangle), ie colors are not unsaturated AND color luminance is not way too low. Radiance can bring outside colors to their target but cannot do anything about unsaturated colors (colors inside the triangle). Low luminance (like the blue here) can be only fixed -as far as I know- by bringing the white luminance down, which is not ideal since that will result in an overall dim picture.
I don't have a Radiance now (thinking about it) so I can't tell yet practically what can be accomplished.
Looking at the 3 graphs I posted earlier, I would say that the best modes are Cinema and Natural (don't have much wiggle room with Film). If you look at the setting of these two, it is really the combination of color temp, gamma, and color space. Natural has CMD on which I would turn off before calibrating.
post #78 of 173
You might want to close down the lens aperture to -15 as others have suggested. I have a Dvdo-Duo-I Scan with CMS so the results are not comparable however even my pre results don't have the blue luminance issue. I am also using standard as suggested by Tom of ChromaPure. My results below

My results are in the pdf in post 24 on page 1 of this thread.
post #79 of 173
I had my lens aperture set to -10 prior to the calibration. During one of the steps in Calman4's workflow, it measures the screen luminance. For a theater room, it recommends 14-30 fL. Only way to get close to this was to set the aperture to zero. With that setting, I get about 17fL on my 1.0 screen. That's how I ended keeping it.

Of note also, the gamut measurements (with the low blue) I have so far (as shown in previous post) are really out-of the box and un-calibrated since the RS45 does not have CMS and I don't have DVD-Duo or a Lumagen to correct it.
post #80 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnifehr View Post

gamma: Custom (i can provide values for my custom curve but note sure it makes sense for someone else to use)

can you post the custom gamma curve? Just curious!

28,73,115,170,260,361,464,566,678,793,911,972
post #81 of 173
Thanks, I wanted to try your settings as I don't have any calibration equipment except for some discs. I used all your settings except brightness and contrast settings and must say it looked very good. These gamma settings especially made certain scenes look less smoky/dusty not even sure how to explain it, while keeping good shadow detail. Were you custom gamma curve the same for red, blue, green and white? Did you not have to make and adjustments to the Red, blue and green colors itself or was default good? Thanks!
post #82 of 173
Yes. Just focused on White (which by changing it will obviously affect equally red, blue and green). Didn't see need to change the r,g,b individually to correct the gamma curve. As I have it now, it is almost perfect vs my selected target (2.3).
post #83 of 173
Do you have to be in the service menu to get the off-sets and gains?
post #84 of 173
Just had the RS45 calibrated by my go-to-guy Chad B (www.hdtvbychadb.com). The grayscale and gamma have very noticeable improvements. I decided to stick with "Natural" picture mode, so green is a bit undersaturated but the overall picture quality is exceptional. The report with before & after readings is attached (not a typo, I am getting nearly 32 foot lamberts after calibration...-15 lens aperture as well). Chad said the contrast & light output are very similar to a Pioneer Elite plasma in Night mode. I would have to agree since I owned an Elite before the RS45. I am using a 73" 16x9 1.0 gain screen (Draper Onyx). Seating distance is only 7.5 feet.

NOTE: There is a rather "huge" bug with uniformity if you ceiling mount the RS45. Table/shelf mounting would not reveal this bug. The temporary fix for ceiling mount installations is to complete this routine each time the projector is powered on: Go to installation type in the user menu and select "Front", then go back to "Ceiling Mount (F)". This will correct the uniformity issue. I had a VERY noticeable green tint gradation pattern from the bottom of the screen to the middle of the screen and a blue tint at the top 25% of the screen. JVC Japan is aware of the bug (it also affects the RS55).

Here's a sample from the calibration:

 

Bitwize-JVC-RS45-calibration-report.pdf 264.490234375k . file
post #85 of 173
No. The RS45 allows you to have 3 custom gamma curves. You assign it in the first screen (pictures settings), select Advanced and select to edit the gamma curve.
post #86 of 173
Bitwize:

I don't think all units are affected by this bug, as my uniformity is perfect and I have mine ceiling mounted too.
Do you mind posting all your settings for those of us who don't have testing equipment, I know no 2 projectors are exactly the same but I still would like to try yours out and experiment.
post #87 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnifehr View Post

Bitwize:

I don't think all units are affected by this bug, as my uniformity is perfect and I have mine ceiling mounted too.
Do you mind posting all your settings for those of us who don't have testing equipment, I know no 2 projectors are exactly the same but I still would like to try yours out and experiment.

Yes, I will post my complete set of settings. As for the uniformity "bug," it's strange that it would only affect certain projectors as it can be "fixed" in the software (unless there are slightly different firmware versions going around). Are you using a 1.0 gain screen? Also, I assume a white field is pure white across the entire screen?
post #88 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnifehr View Post

Bitwize:

I don't think all units are affected by this bug, as my uniformity is perfect and I have mine ceiling mounted too.
Do you mind posting all your settings for those of us who don't have testing equipment, I know no 2 projectors are exactly the same but I still would like to try yours out and experiment.

They are all affected. The uniformity data may vary from projector to projector and as such some may require minimal correction but the data is not being loaded when the projector is used in the inverted mode (and JVC Japan has confirmed this).
post #89 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bitwize View Post

Just had the RS45 calibrated by my go-to-guy Chad B (www.hdtvbychadb.com). The grayscale and gamma have very noticeable improvements. I decided to stick with "Natural" picture mode, so green is a bit undersaturated but the overall picture quality is exceptional. The report with before & after readings is attached (not a typo, I am getting nearly 32 foot lamberts after calibration...-15 lens aperture as well). Chad said the contrast & light output are very similar to a Pioneer Elite plasma in Night mode. I would have to agree since I owned an Elite before the RS45. I am using a 73" 16x9 1.0 gain screen (Draper Onyx). Seating distance is only 7.5 feet.

NOTE: There is a rather "huge" bug with uniformity if you ceiling mount the RS45. Table/shelf mounting would not reveal this bug. The temporary fix for ceiling mount installations is to complete this routine each time the projector is powered on: Go to installation type in the user menu and select "Front", then go back to "Ceiling Mount (F)". This will correct the uniformity issue. I had a VERY noticeable green tint gradation pattern from the bottom of the screen to the middle of the screen and a blue tint at the top 25% of the screen. JVC Japan is aware of the bug (it also affects the RS55).

Here's a sample from the calibration:


Does anyone know if the X30 has this issue? Just purchased the X30 with a 135" scope screeen. I guess I'll know soon enough but wonder if this has been determined yet.

Thanks
post #90 of 173
[quote=Bitwize;21465533]Yes, I will post my complete set of settings. As for the uniformity "bug," it's strange that it would only affect certain projectors as it can be "fixed" in the software (unless there are slightly different firmware versions going around). Are you using a 1.0 gain screen? Also, I assume a white field is pure white across the entire screen?[/QUOTE

I actually built my own 106" screen, I used to have a dalight 1.0 screen. My screen is approx 1.4 gain. I have to say going through 100% black, white, blue, green, red test screens my uniformity is perfect as of now and I must be in the 40 hr mark. Looking forward to trying your settings.

I assume this bug would be fixed by a simple firmware upgrade, as Geof states they are all affected, which means thousands and thousands will have this issue. I'm just glad I don't see it on mine as that would be a pain to go to the Front then back to ceiling mount option each time you power it on. I just like to hit the power button on my logitech remote, set the volume and enjoy.
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