Micca EP950! - Page 10

Jack/Micca:

I discovered a fairly serious bug in the HDD file management that is pretty disapointing to me.

The ISO file The Rum Diary had become corrupted on the EP950, and would not play. I verified the file was stored properly on my desktop, and played it back with no errors from my desktop.

I deleted the file from the EP950 HDD, then attempted to copy the ISO file again. Please note I always store the files under the correct movie name in order to import meta file information.

I tried to copy the file 3 times, and the first time walked away and returned to see the file progress of the EP950 displayed at 300%!

I deleted the file and tried again, and again the EP950 showed file copy progress in excess of 100%. Attached are photos of the third attempt to copy the file. If I stop the file transfer after the display shows 100% (or more), the EP950 displays a message that the file transfer is OK, but it obviously is not.

The end result was that the EP950 never did copy The Rum Diary ISO, apparently the file management software will not allow the same name to be reused after the file has been deleted from the HDD.

This is very disapointing for me to learn the HDD file management software design will not allow a file to be deleted then added again.

I'm not so sure how much more of my time I want to invest in this product with so little documentation and support, and so many bugs...

From Jack a few pages back:

"As for what we are working on:

- UPnP compatibility improvement
- Make error messages more informative
- 3D media support improvements
- Power on issue
- 16:9 DVD menus
- Forced subtitles"

I agree that the power issues could be a hardware problem. That's the worst-case scenario because it would require a replacement or at the very least shipping the unit back for repair. But since we're not getting any concrete information on what the cause is yet, and since there are other issues along with it, I'm hoping it is indeed a firmware issue. We're just going to have to hope that Micca is on top of it. They must have another unit available for testing that displays this power issue. If not, they can certainly have mine if it would help.

I asked over on the HiMedia thread if other media players have this frame-drop "stuttering", and here was HokeySmoke's response:

"My Popcorn Hour A-110, which has a Sigma Designs 8635, has video settings for 1080p60, 1080p59.94, 1080p24, and 1080p23.976."

I believe now that it is the ability to select modes like 1080p@23.976 and 1080p@59.94 that allows those players to smoothly play files encoded at 23.976 without dropping frames. I hope Jack sees this and passes it on because if these video modes are made available, I believe it could solve the frame-dropping issue. The fact that 23.976 video is played back not at 23.976, but at 24.000, is causing the stuttering when frames are dropped. 23.976 output should be available for both 720p and 1080p, along with 24.

All of these progressive modes should be supported: (resolutions in bold are missing on the Micca/Hiimedia)

- 720p@23.976
- 720p@24
- 720p@50
- 720p@59.94
- 720p@60
- 1080p@23.976
- 1080p@24
- 1080p@50
- 1080p@59.94
- 1080p@60

Both the Popcorn Hour and the Dunes have those video modes, and they do not experience the frame dropping issues of this unit. Please enable these missing video modes. That may very well be the solution.

For reference, here are the modes listed for the Dune HD Smart D1:

480i/720p/1080i/1080p, 23.976/24/ 30/50/59.94/60 Hz

^^^^^^

eagle_2: It sounds as you may have a defective unit. You best bet is to contact amazon and exchange it.

They are not because mine isn't. I have no power issues and no picture problems. It plays every file I throw at it just fine.

How can you say that I have a defective unit after my last post above? It seems very likely to me to me after HokeySmoke's post in the HiMedia thread that this machine does not support the resolutions necessary to play back 23.976fps without dropping frames. I do not believe I have a defective box. What I believe is the firmware itself needs some serious adjustments to enable the video outputs I mentioned above. If the power issue is not firmware related, then it is a hardware issue. You would think that Micca could answer that one, but we can't get a definitive answer if it is firmware or hardware related.

Too many people are having issues with the Micca/Himedia boxes to convince me that I have a defective box. Is HokeySmoke's HiMedia defective too? Because he has the same exact frame dropping issues that I and others are noticing. And the Iconbit which I returned also had the same issue. Was that defective also? Obviously these 1186 chips either have these issues built-in, or Micca/Himedia needs to learn how to overcome these problems with their firmware, like enabling the video modes HokeySmoke mentioned which are not available for this player, but are available in the Popcorn Hours and Dunes.

There is no way I will believe that some boxes stutter (drop frames) and others do not. This is a firmware issue, due to the limited video resolutions available. The lack of forced subtitle support is also due to firmware - all the 1186 chips have the issue. What I do believe is some people may not notice it, or maybe, just maybe, some tvs, especially LCDs, with their strange motion interpolation, may cover up or hide the issue. I own a plasma and the dropped frames are very noticeable. In fact, for me, it's impossible not to notice it. Like I said, my friend sitting in the same room with me couldn't see it at all because he just doesn't notice those types of things.

Did the Iconbit unit have the power on/off problem?

eagle_2: I do not have any issues with my micca. The way I have it set up is HDMI auto for video resolution and it plays everything just fine with no drops in frames or stuttering.

Well I don't know what else to say then. I can't possibly see how some would stutter and some don't. How some have file corruption issues and some don't. How some have power issues and some don't. Obviously these devices are riddled with issues that many different people are experiencing in different forms. Is RideSober's unit defective? He just said today that he is having file corruption issues, with screenshots included. His corruption issues act differently than my file corruption issues so far, but the bottom line is, many of us are having stuttering, file corruption, and power issues. There is no way I can believe that some people are "lucky" and have perfect units. I believe that the files stuttering, on 23.976fps files, happens across the board. Whether or not some don't notice it, or their tvs mask the stuttering, I don't know. When I tried an LCD tv, before I bought my plasma set, the motion interpolation used to get 120hz did all sorts of wacky things to the video signal to get smooth motion. I'm thinking that some sets are hiding the issue. And I believe the file corruption is sporadic and could hit anybody at any time. I haven't had a corrupted or deleted file for almost 2 days now. I'm watching it closely. But obviously, something happened to cause it to have file corruption multiple times throughout a 2 day period. And now RideSober is having the same kind of troubles. I certainly can't trust it to stream my original files off my pc. With these corruption issues, I can't even trust it to touch my original files.

Richard, no, the Iconbit did not have the power issue. I only kept it for a few days, because as soon as I started seeing frame dropping in all my blu-ray rips, I sent it back and tried the Micca hoping for a better experience.

Please try the following:

Update to the latest firmware using recovery mode. Set the HDD power off to "Never". Reboot the player and try the delete/copy operation again.

Eagle 2....
have you tried plugging the 950 directly into your Samsung plasma?
The reason I ask is like Richard Adams, I suspect interactions with various equipment to be the culprit.
I remember sometime in the past certain discussions about HDMI issues with Yamaha recievers...cant remember what they were, but do remember reading about them...

On a lighter note, I am more than happy with my Micca and am building a custom enclosure for it and a Samsung BD-ROM drive..
Way I see it I now have a Blu-Ray player that does everything I need it to do for around 200 bux.....I even sent back a top of the line OPPO because it couldnt do what it said it could do...play everything....Im not going to cry because I have to press a power button on my remote twice once in a while..Im sure it will be fixed....

Regarding the power issue, we understand it exists and affects a significant number of owners. We are investigating the root case of this and will provide a solution for it.

RideSober, the strange thing is, I didn't have the issue you had with the same file not copying over more than once. In fact, when my Micca randomly deleted a file, and other files became corrupt, I copied them back over again and they played. So it looks like these corruption issues and other HDD issues are quite varied for different users.

Isolar801, I will try bypassing the Yamaha this evening and see if the stuttering problem remains. I fully expect it to remain, but I will give it a try to see what happens.

Jack,
Does EP950 support 3TB Seagate FreeAgent Desk external hard drive through USB 2.0 port?
Thanks,

Another interesting test would be to take your ep950 to another TV, such as one of the ones listed here in this thread and the 900 thread, for which users say do not exhibit the 42sec stutter.

If you don't have a willing associate with one of these TVs, talk to the local electronics store Best Buy, Frys, etc manager over the phone first, and ask permission to come in for a test session that would take only a few minutes on a couple of TVs. It would not be a lie to say you are considering purchasing the TV if it works ok. We are on the cutting edge with these players. A smart manager would be interested. Showing up at the store without calling first may not be as good.

We've already established that you have an eagle eye (LOL?) for spotting the stutter. Purpose is to apply that to the sets alleged to not exhibit the stutter...

eagle_2, just a suggestion but did you try formatting the drive again, not using quick format but the long and painful format? I had another player that I tried that experienced the same file corruption issues and files not showing up even though it was already previously formatted NTFS and was a new drive. It just would'nt work until I did the format the long way (8 hours for a 2TB drive), quick format didn't work.

Jack, can I order a new ep950, pre-loaded with newest firmware and pre-tested to not exhibit the power on/off issue?

How do I disaaemble the unit to get to the fan?

I'd like to find a quieter one to repalce what came on it.

With the last firmware update the noisy fan is my only gripe, albeit minor.

For those of you on the fence about buying one of these, keep in mind it's $150.

Think about it...

That's the price of a mid level video card for a PC.

Compare the functionality betweent he 2.

I'm sure the problems people are encountering are real but to expect the uber videophile performance some people do for $150 is just silly.

Well, I'm not really expecting uber videophile performance. I'm expecting what they are advertising. Take a look at Himedia's/Micca's sites for this unit. They boast a lot. Expecting smooth playback of 1080p@23.976 material is not expecting uber performance when that is what they are claiming this box can do.

djc11369, well I did do a full-format with the drive when I first bought it last weekend, in my pc. I then installed it in the Micca and did a format with the Micca, figuring it might want to create it's own folder structure or something along with the format. Surely there shouldn't be an issue with formatting the drive with the Micca once the unit has had a full-format with the pc. Why would Micca allow formatting within the unit if it couldn't do it reliably? I would think that would be the preferred way actually, within the unit.

But yes, I did do a full-format to check for errors in my pc first.

It should cost nothing and do everything perfectly. People would still find things wrong with it.

Uber videophile? No ones asking for that.

I see people asking for correct operation from the buttons, accurate copying of files, and a picture that doesn't distract from what your watching once a minute. These are all run of the mill ordinary expectations.

We are in the digital age and should be getting excellent performance when products are properly conceived, designed, and tested. Thanks to Microsoft, companies routinely ship crap and let the customer figure out what's wrong.

Realistically, there are many capable streaming players on the market for under $150, but not ones that do true 1080 3D.

Okay, I ran some more tests with the files by HokeySmoke. I bypassed my receiver for these tests and connected the Micca directly to my tv via HDMI 1.4a cable. For the sbs 3D tests, I selected the frame-packed 3D mode once playback started.

The files I used were:

- MotionBars_1080p23.976.m2ts
- MotionBars_1080p24.000.m2ts
- MotionBarsSBS_1080p23.976.m2ts
- MotionBarsSBS_1080p24.000.m2ts

Here are the results:

Video Mode: 1080p@60Hz
1080p 24Hz - On

- 1080p23.976 Stutter
- 1080p24 No Stutter
- 1080p23.976 sbs Stutter
- 1080p24 sbs No Stutter

Video Mode: 1080p@60Hz
1080p 24Hz - Off

- 1080p23.976 No Stutter
- 1080p24 No Stutter

As expected, when played at 1080p@24Hz, the 23.976 files stutter, and the 24.000 files play smoothly. This goes for 2D and 3D.

When played at 1080p@60Hz, all 2D files played smoothly. Obviously frame packed 3D could not be tested at 1080p@60Hz, as it is not suported.


This is the exact same results I get when connected to my receiver through HDMI. Clearly it is an issue when playing back 23.976 files at exactly 24Hz. Of course the problem with this is the vast majority of blu-ray video is encoded at 23.976fps, not 24. We should have an output option for both 720p@23.976 and 1080p@23.976.

I like that suggestion.

Thank you Jack!

I followed the upgrade instructions, and after reboot, viola!

The exact same ISO file that I had tried to store 3 times from my portable USB HDD, now stored with no problem.

Problem solved!

To my surprise, the nagging power on/off problem also seems (?) to have disappeared... I had become accustomed to pointing the remote directly at the EP950 and pushing the power button 3-4 times before lights on. But since the upgrade so far, the power has worked each time I have pushed it.

I am certainly a much happier camper after the upgrade.

Cheers!

I certainly hope you guys can work out all the little bugs, this box has so much potential! I really do want this to be my media player, but really don't want any aggravation.

Eagle, best of luck my friend, hope they can work the bugs out and the Micca lives up to the expectations we all have.

You know....Ive wanted to bring this up but didnt....dont want this to turn into a war over specs.....after 40 years of AV hobbying Ive had my share of tech arguments......but....JUST TURN OFF THE DAMN 24 !!!

From Cnet...

More mixed signals: 1080p/60 versus 1080p/24

1080p HDTVs are a dime a dozen, but not all 1080p HDTVs are created equal. First off, some older HDTVs with 1080p resolution couldn't accept 1080p sources at all. More recently, the advent of Blu-ray has delivered another video format variation to worry about: 1080p/24.

The numbers 24 and 60 refer to frame rate. Moving video is composed of a certain number of frames transmitted every second that combine in the viewer's mind to create the illusion of movement. The nominal rate for film is 24 frames per second, while the rate for video is 30 frames per second. In standard 1080p video, which is technically 1080p/60, each frame is repeated twice. Every 1080p HDTV sold today can accept and display 1080p/60 sources via its HDMI inputs.

Not every 1080p HDTV properly displays 1080p/24 sources, however. Most Blu-ray players, as well as the PlayStation 3, have a setting that lets the player transmit 1080p/24 video directly. Blu-ray Discs with movies that originate on film are encoded at 1080p/24 to preserve the proper cadence of film--that characteristic motion that's smooth but not too smooth. If your player is set to output 1080p/24 directly, and your TV can properly display it, you're seeing the image as close as possible to what the director intended--how it looks when displayed on a cinema screen from a film projector at your local movie theater.

Generally, for an HDTV to properly display 1080p/24 it needs to have a refresh rate at some multiple of 24. The standard refresh rate for HDTVs of all varieties is 60Hz, which is not a multiple of 24. There's no benefit to sending these displays 1080p/24 instead of 1080p/60. If the HDTV can actually show the signal (some cannot), the result usually looks the same regardless of the setting on your Blu-ray player.

On the other hand, increasing numbers of LCD TVs have refresh rates of 120Hz or 240Hz, for example, while a few plasmas refresh at 48Hz, 72Hz, or 96Hz. All are exact multiples of 24. Some of these HDTVs come closer to preserving the cadence of film than others, and some can introduce extra dejudder video processing (usually user defeatable) that also affects cadence. Unlike with resolution, there's no easy way to tell from the spec sheet if a display with a multiple of 24 as its refresh rate handles 1080p/24 correctly, although most such displays that we've tested do.

For most viewers the visible benefits of 1080p/24 are slight. Displays that cannot show it correctly can nonetheless produce a viable semblance of film's cadence, one that to experienced viewers appears to stutter slightly, especially in pans or camera movement, instead of move more smoothly like true film cadence. But for purists interested in seeing every last benefit of film, 1080p/24 signals mated to a 1080p/24-compatible display are worth the investment.

For most viewers the visible benefits of 1080p/24 are slight. Displays that cannot show it correctly can nonetheless produce a viable semblance of film's cadence, one that to experienced viewers appears to STUTTER slightly, especially in pans or camera movement, instead of move more smoothly like true film cadence. But for purists interested in seeing every last benefit of film, 1080p/24 signals mated to a 1080p/24-compatible display are worth the investment.



Eagle 2 ...
Your Samsung uses the 600Hz subfield motion drive...
Im trying to find specs on your Samsungs 24p capabilities....cant find any mention that it has any.


Also interesting is this....http://24pinfo.com/
Samsung info on 24p cant be confirmed by these people either..
It certainly looks like a great panel and has great reviews, but maybe it just cant do the 24p thing....not a big deal..
This might be the source of your problems....just turn off the 24!

eagle_2: Please set up your micca under video settings to "HDMI auto" under TV system and 1080p 24Hz mode to "on" and run your tests again.

isolar801, I know all about the various issues regarding 24Hz sginals. I've spent months reading about them while researching for a tv, and I have had first-hand experience with different motion issues while trying out an LCD tv before deciding on the Samsung plasma.

To suggest that, basically, it doesn't seem to work right, so, just don't use it, is not helping here at all.

There is nothing - nothing at all - preventing my tv from displaying 720p/1080p@23.976 properly, other than this unit not sending out the signal properly. I can assure you - my tv has a 24Hz mode. Every time I watch a blu-ray disc with my blu-ray player, the info box appears at the top of the screen, telling me my display is in 1080p@24Hz mode. I know my tv. When I set my blu-ray player to 24p, my tv does not stutter. WHY? Because the blu-ray player properly handles the blu-ray encoding - which is 23.976, and delivers it to my tv so that it can be played back smoothly. I do not get stutters at a rate of 1 every 42 seconds when watching blu-rays. I have already mentioned this, by the way.

Why is it so hard to accept that this player just simply does not currently support the proper video output to play 720p/1080p@23.976 blu-ray material properly, that is, without stutter. To say, since it doesn't work, just don't use it, is ridiculous. The solution is to see if Micca will add support for 720p/1080p@23.976 output. Why do you think that other players support those video modes?

And again I ask, if it's a problem with my tv, and it supposedly doesn't have a 24Hz mode, and cannot display 23.976 material without stuttering, then I ask again why does it display my blu-ray discs correctly, which is...23.976? Also, another question - if my tv doesn't support 24 Hz correctly, then why, according to my test results above, does my tv display the 1080p@24 test files fine, without stutter? And if I hit "info" on my tv remote, it displays 1080p@24Hz in the corner. Right there your whole theory about my tv not supporting 24Hz falls apart.

I appreciate the help some of you are offering here. Several of us are doing our best to try and figure out just what the issues are with this player, and hopefully, how to solve them. Telling me not to use it if it doesn't work is not helping.

The reference to stutter that you highlighted in your post above is not the stutter I am referring to. I don't know how many other ways I can say the same thing. The stutter I, HokeySmoke, and others are referring to is the dropping of frames. It has nothing to do with the natural "judder" or "stutter" of film, caused by the fact that film is made up of only 24 frames. I'm well aware that film consists of 24 frames, and as such, inherently produces a slight motion-judder that is not completely smooth. That is obvious just by watching the test files that HokeySmoke created. I'm also aware that if a display cannot support 24Hz then it can also have unwanted motion issues, if it displays at all. What we are talking about is totally different, and is not an issue with the Popcorn Hour player or the Dunes. HokeySmoke owns a Popcorn Hour Player and he said his 23.976 test files play fine on it with no frame dropping or stuttering.

I really almost want to give up here at this point, not because I have lost faith in Micca yet, but because some of these comments are just distracting us from getting to the bottom of these issues. I believe some of here are on the right track to figuring some of this out, which could help Micca with a solution. Telling us to just not use it is not helping at all.

And to quote your own post above,

"But for purists interested in seeing every last benefit of film, 1080p/24 signals mated to a 1080p/24-compatible display are worth the investment".

Indeed, I have a 1080p/24-compatible display. And my blu-ray player is proof that it works correctly, otherwise whenever I play a blu-ray disc it would drop frames just as the Micca does. It does not, so obviously it is an issue with the Micca.

There will indeed be times when I might choose to play at 720p@60, or 1080p@60, but the point is, why include a 24Hz mode if it doesn't work correctly? The point is, it is supposed to work, and not drop frames, and this is what some of us are trying to see fixed.



Casper77, I'll give that a try and report back with my results.