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JVC Ghosting Discussion

post #1 of 363
Thread Starter 
Just wanted to get this thread started since others requested it. Personally ghosting does not bother me that much, but I will report back after more viewing.

Let me start out with a little bit of kiddie humor

The Ghost With The Most

"Boo! Boo Hoo!",
cried the ghost with the most.
No one comes to visit me,
though I'm the perfect host.

I decorate with cobwebs,
sweep the spiders under the rug,
Yet no one ever offers me
a kind word or a hug.

I don't know what the reason is.
I don't know what could cause it,
'Cause I always, yes I always
keep my skeletons in the closet.

Sure, I may look scary
but if someone really knew me,
they wouldn't be afraid
'cause they could see
right through me.
post #2 of 363
Good call Coderguy! It will be good to have a thread focused on this and it will be interesting to see what differences/similarities people find with ghosting from one machine to another.

My general consensus so far for those that have not followed my posts is that ghosting seems to be identical between my 40 and 45 (this is going off memory though since the 40 is gone). How much or little ghosting there is just depends on how the disc/material challenges the projector. Something like Under the Sea had virtually no ghosting within reason (besides the opening credits) on both my 40/45. Giants of Patagonia is a mess starting from about 6:30 on (off/on). Everything else falls in between as far as blu ray 3d. Monsters vs Aliens yesterday had some of the absolute best 3d I have experienced yet on blu ray 3d, but there was a fair amount of ghosting as well.........it was certainly in the tolerable range still for me though.

SbS and TnB content I have not tried out yet on the 45. This type of material was always considerably worse on my 40 vs blu ray 3d so I am curious how the 45 does. Might dive into Uncharted 3 today and will report back if I do.

Just to be clear, ALL my observations so far have been with first gen JVC glasses or Xpand 103s. I have not tried the new glasses yet, but am looking forward to doing so at some point and doing some comparisons.
post #3 of 363
http://www.avforums.com/review/JVC-X...or-Review.html

O.K. -- this review basically claims that this JVC projector has more or less zero ghosting and, not good, but excellent overall 3D. I have not seen 3D on the JVCs so I can not make any real world comment. However, what Toe says and what AVforums say are diametrically opposed. I would probably buy the S-45 as a one projector solution for 2D and 3D if it lived up to the review I posted above. Thank God for this site and people like Toe and a number of other members who tell it as they see it without all the marketing etc. BS! That's not to say that on some 3D material the JVC doesn't do an excellent job. What would be very disappointing would be to expect it to be excellent with all material and then find it just isn't so. The professional reviews seem to be very misleading when it comes to ghosting -- seems to be uncharted territory for the reviewers who belittle projectors for nick picky things and then completely miss crucial ghosting issues!

Ghosting is a huge issue for 3D -- yes, some people don't seem particularly bothered by it, but those of us who are want to know what projectors have issues with ghosting. I'd love to be able to buy a one projector solution for 2D and 3D, but I think I'm stuck with a 2 projector path.

Great thread and it should lead to a very animated and healthy discussion about one of 3D's thorniest issues.
post #4 of 363
Thread Starter 
Yup, it can definitely be a huge issue, especially problematic in motion. The good thing though is there is quite a bit of content in 3D that doesn't ghost that much on the JVC's if I am interpreting Toe's post correctly.

For now, unless the evidence states otherwise, I am going to have to remain in the camp that the RS-40 and RS-45 have very similar ghosting, if not identical, and that any variation is more than likely calibration rather than actual differences (but anything is possible).

The JVC RS-45's 2d is mesmorizing, almost 3D-like in itself, so I wouldn't trade it for a 3D DLP if you paid me, now that said I might also buy a 3D DLP to supplement, but I would not trade the 2D regardless. Still 3D is enjoyable with the ghosting, but I am getting some Bluray's in a bit later and will report back with any findings.
post #5 of 363
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

http://www.avforums.com/review/JVC-X...or-Review.html

O.K. -- this review basically claims that this JVC projector has more or less zero ghosting and, not good, but excellent overall 3D. I have not seen 3D on the JVCs so I can not make any real world comment. However, what Toe says and what AVforums say are diametrically opposed. I would probably buy the S-45 as a one projector solution for 2D and 3D if it lived up to the review I posted above. Thank God for this site and people like Toe and a number of other members who tell it as they see it without all the marketing etc. BS! That's not to say that on some 3D material the JVC doesn't do an excellent job. What would be very disappointing would be to expect it to be excellent with all material and then find it just isn't so. The professional reviews seem to be very misleading when it comes to ghosting -- seems to be uncharted territory for the reviewers who belittle projectors for nick picky things and then completely miss crucial ghosting issues!

Ghosting is a huge issue for 3D -- yes, some people don't seem particularly bothered by it, but those of us who are want to know what projectors have issues with ghosting. I'd love to be able to buy a one projector solution for 2D and 3D, but I think I'm stuck with a 2 projector path.

Great thread and it should lead to a very animated and healthy discussion about one of 3D's thorniest issues.

Thanks DejaVu Trying to be as unbiased as possible.

Check out the comment section in the review you linked. I asked Steve (the reviewer) about his X3 (I go by Toe over there as well) and he said it had ~350 hours on it. I am guessing the reason he is seeing less ghosting with the X30 is either A) unit to unit variation which quite a few people have reported on or B) his X3 has enough hours to where ghosting has increased which several owners have reported on including me (to be fair, he comments that he did not notice any increase in ghosting, but it could be his memory is off from when the bulb was new, or it could simply be unit to unit variation). My RS40 started ghosting considerably more somewhere around 300-400 hours.......considering he is 350+, it is not surprising he is seeing less ghosting on the X30. If I judged my 40 and 45 the same way (the 45 with a new bulb vs my 40 with ~350 hours), I could also come to the conclusion that the 45 ghosted considerably less which is obviously a flawed test since we are not comparing on a level field with 2 new bulbs.

He also talks about discs such as Despicable Me and Monst vs Aliens challenging most projectors he has tried (I assume this includes the JVCs) as far as ghosting goes. These 2 discs also are 2 of the more challenging I have found for both my 40 and 45. I just watched M v A yesterday as I mentioned and it has a fair amount of ghosting off/on throughout.

Being that time was probably limited, I am also guessing he did not do a ton of 3d testing at which point I am sure he would find more ghosting issues, especially with 120hz type content such as games. If I threw in Avatar and based my 3d review off just that, I would claim the JVC as a killer ghost free 3d machine which would obviously not be true.

The other thing is you cant count out reports such as Josephs and JonStatt. Both of them have noticed MORE ghosting on their RS45/X70 vs the RS40/X7. This would also support the unit to unit variation argument (or maybe there is some other factor at play such as the increased contrast in 3d mode showing more ghosting?). Unit to unit variation could make either the new or old unit look "better" as far as ghosting is concerned.

I would love for you to watch something like Monst vs Aliens though on my 45 and tell me how much the ghosting bothers you. This was right near the limit for me as far as being acceptable/tolerable, but for someone who is used to totally ghost free DLP goodness like you, I am thinking you might find this level of crosstalk to be unacceptable.
post #6 of 363
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

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Ghosting is a huge issue for 3D -- yes, some people don't seem particularly bothered by it, but those of us who are want to know what projectors have issues with ghosting. I'd love to be able to buy a one projector solution for 2D and 3D, but I think I'm stuck with a 2 projector path.

Kraine is one of the only reviewers showing the tri-def L/R 3D patterns. This would go a long way if other reviewers would simply post through the glasses screen shots of the patterns or particularly tough scenes, like I showed in my signature on Avatar. (M v A bridge scene, despicable Me, there's many to choose from)

If I can't at least see the patterns, I'm having a tough time following any of the stated opinions.
post #7 of 363
You shouldn't discount my findings! :P

Seriously though, I had both projectors (X7 and X70) sitting next to each other getting the same feed. If I had said the X70 was better than the X7, you could have said "bulb age". But I found the X70 to be slightly worse than the X7 (with 520 hours on it). So what could make this happen?

When I study the image close to the screen, I can see what I believe to be edge enhancement that cannot be disabled on the X70 combined with a significant increase in contrast. These two aspects give a more pleasing 3D image, but may suffer more ghosting as a consequence. I posted screenshots on AVforums showing this. See the following link and scroll down to the pics. I believe this is very eye opening (pun!) to show the difference in processing.

http://www.avforums.com/forums/proje...thread-24.html


This is not about calibration...look at the close-up shot on the X70. That darker band simply does not exist on the X7.
post #8 of 363
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

You shouldn't discount my findings! :P

Seriously though, I had both projectors (X7 and X70) sitting next to each other getting the same feed. If I had said the X70 was better than the X7, you could have said "bulb age". But I found the X70 to be slightly worse than the X7 (with 520 hours on it). So what could make this happen?

Jon - sorry, I was referring to the folks that post formal reviews (Projector Central, Projector Reviews, etc) , your information is better than gold here since you have the x7 & X70 side by side.

Do you know anyone with the Optoma or MV3D setup? i'd like to know if what your seeing in those photos can be toned down with the adjustments. My 55 won't be here until next week sometime, but this is the first thing I am going to try on it.
post #9 of 363
Coderguy,

"The JVC RS-45's 2d is mesmorizing". Glad you enjoy the picture. How does it compare to your other pj's? I assume that there is no buyer's remorse in terms of 2D.
post #10 of 363
Since it's finally time to replace my CRT (Barco BG808s) due to the fact that it got ruined by serious burn-in, I decided to go back to digital.
My first ever PJ was a Panasonic XGA LCD (PT-LC75 if anyone remembers...) that cost me a fortune and, in comparison to the Barco that followed, sucked bigtime
But back then it was one of the best things to ever happen in HT.

I haven't been completely out of the loop as far as digital goes since I try to demo machines just for the hell of it when I can (which isn't a lot) but now I have no other choice since I've been HT-less for over half a year now and have been waiting with increasing impatience for this new batch of PJ's.

Recently I saw the HC9000, the HW30, the RS45 and RS40 in action (not all along side each other, sorry) so I'm able to compare somewhat. Even though I'm no expert by a long shot, I'll do my best to convey my findings with regards to ghosting in 3D since 3D is one of the other main reasons to go digital as far as I'm concerned. I love the concept of 3D and have been the owner of a 50" Samsung plasma that I returned due to noticeable ghosting.

The first one I saw was the HC9000 vs the HW30 in a direct heads-up. I can be short on the subject of the HC9000: while brilliant in 2D and showing no ghosting in 3D, the latter can only be attributed to an absolute lack of brightness. You might as well have sat in your local theater with very dark sunglasses on...
The HW30 in comparison was super bright in 3D and was very fluid. No flicker and no jerky motion here in fast scenes.
What it is lacking however, is native contrast. In 2D the DI does its best to keep blacks black (and succeeds quite nicely without making a sound in contrast to the Mitsu with it's audible iris), but in a lot of scenes this simply isn't enough. At times I felt that undefined black blobs were moving on a brighter background when men in black suits were walking about on the screen... I was missing a lot of shadow detail.

Next session was the RS45 against the HW30.
2D contrast was no contest afaik as the JVC wins it on native contrast. Watching Batman the dark knight, I was finally able to see the details in the batsuit that were missing on the HW30. But that's not what we were here to discuss, now was it. It's about ghosting in 3D and unfortunately in that particular demo I only had a blu-ray of Tangled and Drive Angry at my disposal. Both of them performed very nicely in terms of ghosting but the HW30 won out on fluidity in fast moving scenes. As far as brightness in 3D went, I could unfortunately not compare as the RS45 was not calibrated whereas the HW30 was (as far a both can be calibrated, CMS being absent on the RSS45). Hardly fair to make a comparison based on apples and oranges...

So Sunday past I went back one last time to watch the calibrated RS45 to convince myself that the JVC was the way to go and I brought a lot of SBS material that I downloaded from the great biohemmet site to play around with. From memory, I would say that brightness is pretty much even compared to the HW30, but I can't be sure as this demo took place 2 weeks later.
I have to say that with all that has been said so far in the RS45 thread concerning ghosting on the RS45, I was scared that it would be even worse than the plasma I returned, but, and I am in no way over stating this, there was absolutely NO (!!!) ghosting to be found with normal watching...
I was myself totally dumbfounded by this and so I began looking really hard at places in clips where I know my plasma ghosted like crazy but was unable to find any ghosts in the machine.

For instance, the looney toons clip where the coyote's flying helmet tries to get away from him: that was something where I would have been able to see a big outline of that blue helmet, so bad even that it would have been impossible to miss it if it had been there this time.

Another clip was the resident evil shower scene. With my plasma it would've been impossible to properly focus due to all the tiny drops of water and watching it would leave you feel a bit disoriented.
None of this with the RS45. The entire scene was cristal clear and did not cause any discomfort whatsoever.

We also watched the MJ Thriller clip, which admittedly wasn't as bad on my plasma, but on the JVC it took on another dimension. There are some very pronounced pop-out effect from swords and rifles that would have been a very noticeable area of ghosting had it been there, but again there was none whatsoever. And yes I know there are probably going to be some comments here on the fact that it's impossible not to have ghosting on the Thriller clip due to the nature of the clip

Is the 3D on the JVC perfect? Of course not, I think there is more than enough room left for improvement, especially in fast moving scenes (next year some faster panels JVC?) but it was definitely an enjoyable experience as far as I'm concerned and one where I could easily live with the 3D for the coming years as opposed to the plasma TV I returned. If there was ghosting present on the machine that I saw, it was very slight indeed and if you focused on the director's intent and were not freeze framing every 2 seconds, I doubt there would have been many people complaining with regard to this specific machine. And there you have it: I mentioned 'this specific machine' as I have no way of knowing if enough of the RS45's that will be built will live up to the specific one I just saw.
If product variance turns out to be low, this is right now IMHO one of the best options to be had for the big screen if you like contrast to go along with your 3D picture or are (like me) sensitive to RBE on DLP's.
Had it not been for the fact that the HW30 was poor on contrast without the DI (and not to forget: more expensive!), I could've given the nod to it instead. But on the whole, I believe the RS45 to be the better option right now, especially when you take 2D into consideration.

So finally I had one last stop to make since I knew a place where they had a RS40 still in demo and they weren't planning on replacing it with the RS45.
I'll start of by saying that comparisons are harder to make due to the fact that I think the screen had a higher gain, the RS40 was initially set on 'torch' mode to push colours beyond belief (just to convince unknowing potential buyers) and I don't know how many hours were on the bulb.
The demo started of with the Despicable me Bluray followed by the same SBS clips I had previously watched on the RS45. The difference was night and day. 3D was simply and utterly unwatchable on this device! Despicable me had ghosting in almost every scene and it could hardly be called slight. In a scene where the fat bank manager was blabbing his mouth, it was more like he was blabbing his mouths, plural!!! I quickly switched to my SBS clips only to find that things were even worse. At times I felt like I had both my contact lenses in and had my prescription glasses on at the same time...

So this evening I put down a deposit on the RS45 and am now hoping it doesn't have too much product variance compared to the demo model I saw. If it does, I'll ask the store for the demo model regardless of the hours that were built up
The only downside: I'll only be getting it 15th of January at the earliest instead of in time for the holidays as I had hoped... Ah well, I got a free PK-EM1 emitter to compensate

Anyway, that's it for me. I've made my bed and I hope to lie comfortably in it. I hope this little write-up can contribute in the discussion whether or not the RS45 suffers from ghosting, but from now on I know you'll understand that I hope not a lot of people will chime in anymore with ghosting issues as then I would spend several weeks in agony until the arrival of my new toy.


PS: All of this can be backed up by my wife who also knew our plasma TV and was sitting next to me during the demo (just so you know that I wasn't imagining things). I simply hope that everyone understands this to be my findings with regard to one specific machine and that this in no way guarantees another RS45 to be as perfect as the one I saw. So if you believe your RS45 to be ghosting, I'm not saying that it can't be true

PPS: Just to be complete: we were using the old JVC glasses during the RS45 demo and the PJ only had about 6 hours racked up.
post #11 of 363
Quote:
Originally Posted by DisTreSs View Post

What it is lacking however, is native contrast. In 2D the DI does its best to keep blacks black (and succeeds quite nicely without making a sound in contrast to the Mitsu with it's audible iris), but in a lot of scenes this simply isn't enough. At times I felt that undefined black blobs were moving on a brighter background when men in black suits were walking about on the screen... I was missing a lot of shadow detail.

imo, that HW30 must not have been calibrated correctly, I have a calibrated HW30 that can hold it's own in many high contrast scenes against my calibrated JVC RS50.

edit: I forgot we are in the ghosting thread. the Sony 3D is very good when combined with the tuned Monster Vison 3D glasses and FI in 3D. I am disappointed that JVC couldn't put this in for the current models.
post #12 of 363
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

This would go a long way if other reviewers would simply post through the glasses screen shots of the patterns or particularly tough scenes

You mean something like this?
post #13 of 363
Quote:
Originally Posted by pteittinen View Post

You mean something like this?

Petri - Hi, I was referring to the L/R patterns here:

http://www.tridef.com/support/3d-test-images.html

the french forums posted these in the X70 review, you can clearly see the over-lapping L/R on each respective side, show that in high contrast scenes, the projector is likely going to suffer crosstalk.

These are pretty much perfect on a projector like the Acer 5360 and expect the same of the Mitsubishi 7800 and Ben Q W7000.
post #14 of 363
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Petri - Hi, I was referring to the L/R patterns here

Yeah, mine are different but work pretty much the same way. No crosstalk = no visible boxes inside horizontal rectangles. Optoma HD33 has practically no crosstalk, therefore clean rectangles.
post #15 of 363
Distress,

Any way you can find out how many hours the 40 had?

Thanks
post #16 of 363
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Jon - sorry, I was referring to the folks that post formal reviews (Projector Central, Projector Reviews, etc) , your information is better than gold here since you have the x7 & X70 side by side.

Do you know anyone with the Optoma or MV3D setup? i'd like to know if what your seeing in those photos can be toned down with the adjustments. My 55 won't be here until next week sometime, but this is the first thing I am going to try on it.

I know you didn't really mean me. I wish I didn't still have the X7 side by side with the X70....I am trying to sell it, but just before Christmas isn't easy..so it will have to wait until the New Year.

By the way, Kraine noted that the X70 was not as good as the X30 in relation to crosstalk with 3D. Does this suggest a lottery with the units, or just that the X30 is a bit better in this regard. I still am doubtful that units of the same model should be different. If the panels themselves varied, then red/green/blue would all be reacting differently causing some very strange effects. And it is possible to make the timing of the glasses and panels within such a tight tolerance that you would never seen the difference from unit to unit. So if units really are varying, I am totally puzzled how.

I prefer to think that the reason different people see different things, is simply because our brains and eyes vary. Some people tune it out and overlook it. If you are right eye dominated, you will see the ghost in Despicable me at the timecode I said. BUT if you are left eye dominated, you won't. On that scene the ghost only appears through the right lens. Our brains use the image from the non-dominant eye for 3D information and discard most of the rest using the dominant eye image as the primary one!
post #17 of 363
Perhaps the professional reviewers should be leaving the 3D projector they're testing on constantly to put a few hours on the bulb -- maybe for several weeks. The comparison of the RS-40 and RS-45 above makes me shake my head. Is the RS-45 going to have the same issues when the bulb ages? If the problem is unit to unit variation then I've got a problem with that too. For example, it simply is not right that I might buy the same product you just bought and I've got great 3D and your 3D is unwatchable. So now you have to switch your unit out and unluckily get another 3D dud. Now what?

Am I becoming paranoid? Probably. The manufacturers have got to know about all of these issues, and their marketing guys just smile when they read these threads.

Here's what Joe Clarke said about his RS-45 compared to his RS-40 and he threw in a couple of other issues just to really confuse us. He's another guy who calls it as he sees it. No sugarcoating here.

"I had a weird thing happen tonight. When I set up my RS45 the other day, I was very disappointed to see that convergence seemed to be off for red in an uncorrectable way. It seemed to be over a pixel off vertically in opposite directions from top to bottom. When I corrected the top, the bottom would go off in the opposite direction by an equal amount. Because of this and the increased ghosting, I had it packed up and ready to ship back. I put it back up tonight to take some photos of the convergence problem, but this time I did a temporary setup and put it in "front" mode instead of "ceiling." To my surprise, red convergence started to behave normally. I was able to set overall convergence quite well. Blue is off by less than a pixel in the lower left, red by about the same in the lower right. Otherwise, it's now quite acceptable. What the fragnard is that about? I'm posting this here because I seem to recall reading about some sort of ceiling vs front mounting anomaly here. Has anyone else experienced the convergence issue when switching from one mode to the other?

I was also able to improve ghosting a bit, by adjusting the "White" ghosting control down to -8, color down one click and color space from "Wide 1" to "Natural." (The "Natural" setting improved the image dramatically. It was far too oversaturated before.) I'm guessing that ghosting is maybe 20 to 25 pecent better now. It's still not as good as my RS40. OTOH, contrast and "pop" in 3D seem significantly better than the RS40. So, I'm torn. At its worst the ghosting looks bad, but at its best 3D looks spectacular. And in general I like the overall improvements of the RS45. 120hz 3D is still craptacular."
post #18 of 363
Reports about ghosting on these machines are all over the map. My second RS40 from last year's batch was a little better than my first RS40. The RS45 I just got is much worse than my second RS40. 120hz material on my RS40 is bad; on the RS45 it's horrendous. I've set them up one on top of the other with an HDMI matrix switch and simply covered and uncovered their lenses, for instantaneous comparison. The RS40 always wins, no matter the scene. I've tried different ghosting control adjustments, different contrast settings, different color settings, different gamma settings, different iris settings. Nothing has any significant impact on ghosting on the RS45. And my RS40 has about 400 hours on the lamp. Apparently, some of the lamp issues have been sorted out, at least for the first few hundred hours of lamp life.

One of my main reasons for getting the RS45 was for 2D to 3D conversion, which the RS40 doesn't have. Well this RS45 might as well not have it either, because it's completely unwatchable. Ghosting is so bad, it's all I can see.

I've had a few theories, but in the end they don't seem to make much sense. If the D-ILA chips vary that much, then why does ghosting seem to manifest the same way (just to different degrees) on the machines I've seen? If Jon's right, and it's a variance in how people perceive 3D, then why do I see different levels of ghosting on the three machines I've watched?

Someone else here in St. Louis just got an RS45, and I've been invited over to see how well it performs compared to mine. That should be interesting.
post #19 of 363
I do see increased ghosting within the 2D->3D feature for sure. I was waiting for others to comment on this, but it seems not many are interested in this feature.
post #20 of 363
Thread Starter 
I tried the 2d to 3D in the game Elder Scrolls Skyrim, the feature is useless IMHO, not only does it add ghosting but it adds a real blurry type spread out ghosting across the entire image.
post #21 of 363
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

I do see increased ghosting within the 2D->3D feature for sure. I was waiting for others to comment on this, but it seems not many are interested in this feature.

I have not even tried 2d to 3d conversion since every report I have read has talked about increased ghosting which is not making me motivated to even check it out. I will give it a look at some point.

I just checked the scene in Despicable Me that you are talking about at 18:59. Right at 18:59 before the guard salutes with his hand, the ghosting is extremely faint, so faint that I would probably miss it in normal viewing. Right at the 19:00 mark though when he salutes with his hand, the ghost becomes more noticeable and there is a pencil type hard line at the outer edge of the ghost on my 45......is the salute 19:00 point what you are talking about?

Just watched Avatar on the 45 and it was just like I remember it on my 40 with low hours.........almost completely ghost free. I literally noticed ghosting 2 times in the entire film. I think one reason for this though is that the 3d depth effect is not quite as strong as some things I have watched and Monsters vs Aliens is a great example which I just saw yesterday. To my eyes the depth is noticeably more intense in M v A vs Avatar so I assume the projector is less challenged with Avatar (?).
post #22 of 363
Just throwing this out there, but is it a possibility that the bluray player, glasses, or movie files makes a difference on ghosting? When I had my HW30 and my Epson 3010 I could not find hardly any ghosting in scenes that most people were complaining about and I even took pictures to prove my point. It seems very odd how it is either your unit ghosts really bad or doesn't at all. I talked to Mark from AVS tonight and he was very convincing that he has had a fairly ghost-free experience with the RS45.

I am also wondering if room conditions/receiver/screen material plays a factor as well..
post #23 of 363
Does the addition of video scaler in the chain affects ghosting?
post #24 of 363
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmalto View Post

Just throwing this out there, but is it a possibility that the bluray player, glasses, or movie files makes a difference on ghosting? When I had my HW30 and my Epson 3010 I could not find hardly any ghosting in scenes that most people were complaining about and I even took pictures to prove my point. It seems very odd how it is either your unit ghosts really bad or doesn't at all. I talked to Mark from AVS tonight and he was very convincing that he has had a fairly ghost-free experience with the RS45.

I am also wondering if room conditions/screen material plays a factor as well..

I think glasses could easily play a part in ghosting, but in my case everything is exactly the same except for the two different projectors - RS40 vs RS45. Glasses, player, room, screen, open/close shutter timing. Everything! I'm not going by memory of what one looked like a month or two ago. I'm seeing a change as I switch from one to the other in a second. And my RS40 ghosts significantly less than my RS45. Some of these machines are just different than others. I'm very confused as to how that can be, but it is. Why else would we have so many conflicting reports from people here? Some say the new machines ghost less, some the older ones. Some say they ghost the same.
post #25 of 363
Here's what I don't understand -- no matter what variables you throw into the mix, be it different glasses, different movies, people who are sensitive to ghosting, changing depth controls etc,. nearly everyone has a ghost free experience with DLP (yes, I know DLP isn't for everyone; however, it makes you wonder just what the "ghosting" problem actually is?).

This isn't just a JVC phenomena, I've read posts from several people who returned other non-DLP projectors because they couldn't tolerate the ghosting, while other owners of the same projector claim they don't notice any at all. What the hell? Those owners who returned their projectors because of ghosting and then bought a DLP projector for 3D reported that they were finally happy (at least for 3D).

The big problem as I see it is for potential new owners. They read a professional review like I did and figure they found their next projector and then come here and find out that things are not quite that cut and dried! Not everyone can audition a projector before buying.
post #26 of 363
That part's fairly easy, I think. DLP can switch from one frame to the next without any residual image being left over from the previous frame. DLP frames consist of rapidly pivoting mirrors. They switch from one frame to the next lightning fast. None of the other technologies can do that - LCD and LCoS panels can't change from their previous state (dark, light, somewhere in between) fast enough NOT to leave a ghost of the previous image. With DLP, the glasses should be the only variable causing ghosting (if the closed position of the shutters isn't closed enough to block all light). Same thing for plasma - it can't change the state of the pixels quite fast enough to prevent ghosting.
post #27 of 363
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

That part's fairly easy, I think. DLP can switch from one frame to the next without any residual image being left over from the previous frame. DLP frames consist of rapidly pivoting mirrors. They switch from one frame to the next lightning fast. None of the other technologies can do that - LCD and LCoS panels can't change from their previous state (dark, light, somewhere in between) fast enough NOT to leave a ghost of the previous image. With DLP, the glasses should be the only variable causing ghosting (if the closed position of the shutters isn't closed enough to block all light). Same thing for plasma - it can't change the state of the pixels quite fast enough to prevent ghosting.

You're right; however, when you read the review of just about any particular DLP 3D projector the reviewer seems to say he saw some ghosting, maybe not much, but some. It makes me wonder if what the reviewer is seeing and claiming to be ghosting and what I see as ghosting are actually the same thing. As Zombie says we need photos from the reviews so we can compare the same scenes or test patterns among the different projectors.
post #28 of 363
Perhaps the glasses are different from one manufacturer to another, or the timing of the glasses. If the glasses don't block out all the light, there will be ghosting, or if the glasses are left open too long (perhaps a manufacturer decision to increase brightness) there will be ghosting.

You and Jason were the ones, IIRC, who told me way back when that you saw zero ghosting in that crude test image I posted. Zip, nada, zilch. You both had the Acer 5360 at the time.
post #29 of 363
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

Perhaps the glasses are different from one manufacturer to another, or the timing of the glasses. If the glasses don't block out all the light, there will be ghosting, or if the glasses are left open too long (perhaps a manufacturer decision to increase brightness) there will be ghosting.

You and Jason were the ones, IIRC, who told me way back when that you saw zero ghosting in that crude test image I posted. Zip, nada, zilch. You both had the Acer 5360 at the time.

I've still got the Acer and I'm not giving it up until I'm absolutely sure that I'll be happy with what I replace it with. This sounds like we're playing Russian Roulette when we buy a 3D projector -- that's not right. So what does someone do who is unhappy with 3D? Do you keep begging for a replacement? This needs to be addressed -- its 3D's dirty little secret. At some point there will be plenty of content and some of it good. People won't be pleased if its marred by ghosting on their RS-45, for example, and nada ghosting on their friend's RS-45. I'll bet you'll want yours replaced (and rightly so) if you see a neighbour's RS-45 that has significantly less ghosting (maybe when he's not looking you can make a switch ).
post #30 of 363
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

I have not even tried 2d to 3d conversion since every report I have read has talked about increased ghosting which is not making me motivated to even check it out. I will give it a look at some point.

I just checked the scene in Despicable Me that you are talking about at 18:59. Right at 18:59 before the guard salutes with his hand, the ghosting is extremely faint, so faint that I would probably miss it in normal viewing. Right at the 19:00 mark though when he salutes with his hand, the ghost becomes more noticeable and there is a pencil type hard line at the outer edge of the ghost on my 45......is the salute 19:00 point what you are talking about?

Just watched Avatar on the 45 and it was just like I remember it on my 40 with low hours.........almost completely ghost free. I literally noticed ghosting 2 times in the entire film. I think one reason for this though is that the 3d depth effect is not quite as strong as some things I have watched and Monsters vs Aliens is a great example which I just saw yesterday. To my eyes the depth is noticeably more intense in M v A vs Avatar so I assume the projector is less challenged with Avatar (?).

There's a fascinating article in this month's Widescreen Review, where Cameron talks about 3D. Lots of great stuff, including his mention of a deleted scene between Jake and Dr. Augustine. He says it showed 3D's power to intensify those intimate moments between people. It was 4 1/2 minutes and had no special effects at all - just the two of them talking. He says it was riveting. Unfortunately, it didn't make the cut.

Anyway, he mentions that one of his big regrets about Avatar was that he didn't "push" the 3D a little more - give it more depth. I think he might have been right, though. When he was editing it, he was on a Panasonic 50" 3D plasma, and it probably ghosted like all the early 3D sets. In my opinion, he created a movie where everything (depth, color, atmosphere) lends itself to a 3D experience without much ghosting. In the future, when all these problems are behind us, Avatar will probably be looked on as a rather "flat" 3D experience, but I think it was the right choice for where the technology was when it was created.

It's a must read for anyone who wants to gain a little more insight into 3D. Lots of food for thought.
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