Official 4:4:4 / Chroma Subsampling Thread - Page 7

This was taken from the official HX909, HX903, HX900 TV thread. It has evidence that by putting it in game or graphics mode, that it supports full chroma.
Edited by MDA400 - 10/31/12 at 7:34am

Yeah, it's frustrating, I really wish it would work. I didn't have to do any refresh rate tricks to get the receiver to show 4:4:4. I have the Sony XBR 46HX909. The list at the beginning of the thread says it works, but I have to use a DVI to HDMI converter? And make sure no sound is going over the line... I don't think the converter is the issue, since the receiver shows 4:4:4. I guess if the Sony TV sees audio on the line, it throws out information? Just seems silly. Also, I don't know if it even sees audio as the receiver takes the audio and sends it to its amp.

Haha, yeah it's a lot of work getting the setup to work perfectly. I almost have it! I wish I could get my HDMI Detective working--that would solve a lot of issues that I have workarounds for. The damn detective will show my GTX 680 and display as being HDCP compatible, but as soon as I go to play protected content, it switches to saying it's not compatible and the content gives me an HDCP error! More fun... But HDCP works fine without the HDMI Detective and I believe it works fine WITH the HDMI detective if I'm using the integrated intel graphics... but I'm straying from the topic... just felt like whining a bit, ha.

Yeah looks like i edited my post a bit too late before you posted, but that DVI to HDMI thing is just an absolute way of getting 4:4:4 support to your TV or not. As for audio, it shouldn't matter since DVI cannot do audio by default with out an external s/pdif cable. If you do a registry tweak that people have done for HDMI to HDMI to get it working, then that disables audio. But it should work with audio. You just need a way to tell your TV to switch over and thats usually using a "PC" resolution.

a PC resolution is standardized by the 0000 x 000 format (1024x768, 1366x768) and HDTV or broadcats resolution is standardized by the 0000p format (720p, 1080p). When using a TV for a monitor, unless you have a way on the TV of forcing PC mode (renaming input label) or within your PC (custom refresh rate), the TV will use its EDID chip to determine what resolution falls into which category. PC or HDTV/broadcast.

So i was going to ask which of the XBR HX909's you had and you have the 46" so that helps, but its suppose to work like the post above. PS3 doesn't have a DVI connector so the OP was obviously using a HDMI-HDMI cable like you are.

Here is exact words from the i-manual on sony's site:

If it still doesn't work, try different HDMI inputs on the TV or receiver. and then, im not sure... lol
Edited by MDA400 - 10/31/12 at 7:57am

Haha, I actually got desperate last night and tried another HDMI input! No luck. I have the Scene set to Game (also tried Graphics, they make the picture sharper, but not 4:4:4). The display area is definitely set to Full Pixel, I'm not sure about the "Wide Mode" though. I'll have to double check that.

I'm not sure where on this thread I read that when sending audio to the TV, it assumes it's not a PC connection, maybe I'm going nuts! Wait I found it:

EDIT: This quote is more direct:

Thanks for looking through the sony manual--I'll make sure I'm on Full Wide Mode and report back if it works.

By the way, when I went to game mode, my reds definitely got sharper. It looked much like the picture shown above with the Toyota logo. However, using the test patterns, it clearly fails. While the test patterns look better, they are not 1px in width and have duplicates.

I am running an LG 37CS560 with an amd radeon hd 6870. I am in pc mode by changing the hdmi input label of hdmi 1 to pc using the hdmi out on graphics card. Under the catalyst software under my digital flat panels I have the pixel format set to RGB 4:4:4 pixel format PC Standard (Full RGB) as the picture seems to improve slightly in brightness as opposed to YCbCr 4:4:4 pixel format. The TV Picture mode is set to vivid. Under this configuration I am receiving a desirable result but I am not passing the 4:4:4 Chroma Subsampling tests. The only thing I have not tried is connecting DVI to HDMI from the graphics card. I have not done so as it has been indicated to me that this is not a requirement for amd graphics cards. I am going to try it anyway but would appreciate any comments.

Thanks!

Well, I made sure all the settings were correct, Wide was already set to full. I made all sort of custom resolutions, up to 61.500hz refresh rate, a bunch of different manual timings. Nothing worked. Receiver still shows it's getting 8-bit RGB 4:4:4, but TV is not showing 4:4:4... I don't think there is anything else I can do, at least without killing audio over HDMI, which still doesn't make sense to me.

Seems like it might be an issue with sharpness, though i could be wrong. try adjusting sharpness and see if it makes a difference. Since putting it in game or graphics scene mode seem to make it a bit sharper, thats what your kind of looking for. The 1px difference might just be an occurrence of low sharpness.

Here are the settings with a similar menu like your LG's. start with setting the input label to PC as you stated.

Picture mode: Game
Backlight: 20/100 (20-30 is recommended for a low light room to save energy consumption. adjust for your preference in a highly lit room)
Contrast: 82 (80-90 is recommended when using full RGB)
Brightness: 53 (50-60 is recommended when using full RGB)
Sharpness: 35 (vary's from TV to TV, but i used a test pattern to calibrate to the exact neutral sharpness without glowing edges. Will be set different if not in PC mode)
Color: 56 (will vary depending on the Gamma setting in the advanced settings menu. 50-60 is recommended for any scene before oversaturation)
Tint: 0G/0R (balanced. should never have to use this setting)
Color Temp. : 0 (D65/6500K neutral white) (use W50 if you're watching a movie)

(if you have any setting under these, like trumotion, it probably gets grayed-out when using PC mode)

ADVANCED Setting (going from what options i have. again most of these are disabled/grayed out when using PC mode)
Dynamic Contrast: off (grayed out)
Dynamic Color: off (grayed out)
Noise Reduction: off (grayed out)
Digital Noise Reduction: off (grayed out)
Flesh Tone: 0 (grayed out)
If i missed anything between these, they are most likely grayed out too
Gamma: Low (medium is really 2.2, but to correct for Xbox 360 gamma, i have to use Low which is 2.0)
Black Level: High (High for Full RGB from your computer or game console, low for limited range from a DVD or VHS kind of device)
Real Cinema: off (grayed out. Disable PC mode for this to work in Movie picture mode)
Color Gamut: Wide (grayed out)
xvYCC: off (grayed out)


These are MY certain panel's correct color calibration. im just giving you an idea of the similar results you might set if you use test patterns to calibrate your display. Lagom.nl/lcd-test/ is a good site for doing so. As far as 4:4:4, you did everything right so far. If it looks off play with sharpness, if it still won't pass, then the TV doesn't support it then.

(double post)

Thanks for the suggestion. I tried that already, unfortunately. Went 0-100 and it didn't make a difference. I hate accepting defeat, but I think I've reach a limit to what I can do on my end. If you or anyone thinks of anything else for me to try, I greatly appreciate it!

No problem. Yeah it nots a huge caveat if you don't have 4:4:4, but with it it makes low resolution content sharper. otherwise with 1080p your not missing much.

Yeah, plus I'm sitting 10' away from the TV. It's just nice to get full functionality. But with HTPC's, sometimes it's just nice to have functionality period... ha. EDIT: Especially if you want to game on it

I am seeing subtle improvements with suggested methods and tweeking of my own but am not truly passing the test patterns contained in this thread. My research seems to conclude that to pass basic flat panel test patterns it is necesary to run the picture wizard functionality of this unit and then do minor tweeks under those settings. The conclusion I have reached is that I am not going to concern myself with the suggested importance of 4:4:4 chroma subsampling. The reason for this is that this LG 37CS560 has basic functionality to produce visual results comparable to an actual pc monitor and fortunately does so by creating a pc mode for hdmi input eliminating and surpassing the the need for a vga input. The TV produces a visual result that does not seem to be compromised by anything including 4:4:4 chroma subsampling. The picture is outstanding. I see no reason to labor over the result as I cannot see anything going on picture wise that really needs to be improved. Adjusting windows cleartype seems to produce varying results with text but all verions of this are acceptable. I highly reccomend this TV and its use as a pc monitor, you will be suprised with its performance and save tons of money over the purchase of an actual pc monitor at this size.

Let me just start this with, I pulled a real Ricky Bobby... So, looks like my TV is doing 4:4:4 properly. I was thinking today, "you know, it doesn't make sense that it got noticeably sharper when I put my TV in game mode, but I'm still failing the test." When I play Tribes: Ascend, small red chat text has been much easier to read. I decided today to look at the test picture in firefox, wondering if Chrome was doing something weird. To my amazement, the lines were SHARP and one pixel in width... Then it quickly dawned on me, I have Chrome set to zoom 150% so I can read pages from the couch--which also apparently zooms pictures. I dropped the zoom level to 100% and the picture looks perfect.

So while I feel like a doofus, I don't care because I'm happy my TV isn't subsampling! And it does make a noticeable difference, especially when reading small red text in games.

Thanks for all the help!

J

SOLVED

Update to previous posts on LG 37CS560 using amd radeon hd 6870.

I indulged myself and bought a DVI male to hdmi female adapter for $10 at microcenter. I am now attached to the DVI port on the vid card and hdmi on the TV and I am passing 4:4:4 chroma subsampling tests with flying colors -no pun intended I recommend using the picture wizard to calibrate the monitor settings and tweek from there. It was suggested to me through online research that the use of DVI with amd cards was not necessary. Clearly that is not true in this circumstance. I did not have to perform the edid fix but I can't imagine why audio extensions would be a concern with DVI anyway sooo... I can now say that using DVI to hdmi for this outcome is well worth the investment as it has resulted in significant improvements to an already outstanding display experience.

Please disregard previous suggestions that there is no need or that it is not possible to pass the 4:4:4 chroma subsampling tests with the LG 37CS560 as I have determined this to be untrue and that with a small investment in adapting DVI to HDMI you can. I do not use nvidia cards so I cannot realisticly predict what you will have to do with them but I have determined that this set does support 4:4:4 chroma subsampling and there is no reason that the same results with the proper adjustments can also be obtained with Nvidia.

The following is the response I received from LG Support regarding 4:4:4 chroma subsampling that resulted in my interest in using DVI instead:

The subsampling scheme is commonly expressed as a three part ratio J:a:b (e.g. 4:2:2), although sometimes expressed as four parts (e.g. 4:2:2:4), that describe the number of luminance and chrominance samples in a conceptual region that is J pixels wide, and 2 pixels high. The parts are (in their respective order): 4:4:4 R'G'B' (no subsampling) Note that "4:4:4" may instead be referring to R'G'B' color space, which implicitly does not have any chroma subsampling at all. Formats such as HDCAM SR can record 4:4:4 R'G'B' over dual-link HD-SDI .

The best results in display were obtained using the PC label for the HDMI input on the TV. The pixel format of the catalyst software setting for my digital flat panels is no longer an option under DVI config and the catalyst software is makng default selection for this setting under DVI. I assume that that would be 4:4:4 full rgb pc standard.

The main drawback to this config is that the TV does not have a seperate audio input so you will have to install speakers to your sound card (integrated or non-integrated) to obtain sound. I will have to purchase speakers for the two LG monitors of this model that I am using but its worth the improvements in display.


THANX!
Edited by Cclashh - 11/3/12 at 10:21pm

Do you know if Philips 37PFL3507H or LG 37LS5600 are good as computer monitor?
Edited by Blobax Wredny - 11/16/12 at 4:09pm

Man, can't anyway make a decent TV these days? All they focus on is marketing crap!

How about 4:4:4, decent black levels, NON-EDGE backlighting (the marketers actually have people thinking LED TVs are not LCDs and that LED backlighting is the best even though when it is in edge form it is the single worst type!), full CMS and 10 pts gamma/WB control, ability to turn off ALL DNR, hidden or not, all auto-dim, auto-dim on lower scene brightness or near black screen, all this or that processing?

With plasma you have moving plasma dither which looks weird to me and IR.

With LCDs they only use CCFL backlighting for the most part on cheap sets that have no good color calibration controls and then when they give you color calibration controls they use edge backlighting so they look a mess with edge light bleed (are there some models that can escape this yet??) and many have had hidden levels of DNR and such or AMP effects that have not been 100% defeatable. Solid backlit LED lighting would be fine but all they use is the edge junk. Well there are a very few sets that are LED non-edge lit and have calibration features but they are also super expensive multi-zone models. So I can't seem to find a single decent screen under the most ultra-premium price point these days. It's gotten worse by the year. LG have lots of calibration up and down the line but then they use IPS so you get horrible black levels and that nasty whitewash effect off angle on blacks with many models.

Struggling to find a decent 46-55" screen....

I don't care about touch and voice activated this and silly built-in web browsers and the 3D modes I've seen look nothing like in a movie theater and look poor on most sets. All the DNR and edge this and so on just make a bad signal even worse and when they can't be 100% turned off they just destroy things if you feed a great signal.

Sadly all too true. Back in the day if you spent a few hundred pounds on a CRT TV you'd get something of quality to be proud of but now it's more like "at least my TVs not quite as bad as that one" and we're being asked for £500-£1000 for them! How Panasonic get away with selling sets in the UK that have issues with 50hz material is beyond me.

Seeing as half these features we want, like 4:4:4, per-input picture settings and disabling all processing are things that just need to be enabled in the software it's ridiculous they won't do so.

Guys, how about gt50 / vt50 panasonic plasma HDTV's ? I have read about pure direct 4:4:4 mode in these HDTV's, but someone have actualy tested 4:4:4 PC signal with nvidia graphic card like 680GTX?

The top of the range model definitely has it but I'm pretty sure none of the lower models do.

Thats why I want to buy GT50 or VT50, but I must be sure about that 4:4:4 function. So it will be great, if someone could test it out actually , who knows maybe this "pure direct mode 4:4:4" is marketing thing and I dont want to buy another crappy HDTV:p
Edited by pawel86ck - 11/26/12 at 4:54pm

WOW!
Two thumbs up for this post! I have been using a EDID override fix for the past 2 years on my LG 37LD450 (never been able to have audio). After installing windows 8 I constantly had trouble getting the EDID fix to stick and was left with no 4:4:4 and all of the washed out colors that comes with it. This worked like a charm, and now im going to test out the audio portion! No longer will i need TOSLINK from my PC to my receiver, i can just plug in the HDMI to my receiver

Can this possibly harm my monitor if i keep it at 60.001hz?

Thanks again!

Trying to get my head aroufn all this. Excellent thread - came across it while searching for my particular issue :

My Samsung 55ES8000 is hooked up to my HTPC - I play HD movies etc through it. TV hdmi port is set to PC and all looks good except some modes like movie/dynamic etc are not present in PC mode. Also colour setting is disabled. If I switch the hdmi port to non PC mode (lke Blu Ray) picture is awful (very grainy and colours extremely over saturated). So presumably the HTPC video card is doing the 4:4:4 thing and the PC mode setting 'compensates'

So question is, what's the best way of getting the HTPC to play movies to TV? Does the PC mode mean the TV will produce a lower quality picture - and if so how do i go about using it in a non -PC mode so i can change Colour settings and stuff?

Figured it out - all beginng to click. This thread rocks!!!!

But, one question remains : Is the 4:4:4 RGB output the 'perfect' feed to the TV? What if you wanna change colour balance etc? Do it on the video card i guess?

I have a 32CS560 LG LCD with a 580gtx nvidia video card. Does anyone know what the fix is for 4 4 4?

I've tried creating a custom resolution of 60.001 hertz and that did not work. I am running W7 65bit with the latest nvidia drivers. I'm also using dvi-hdmi and notice no artifacts with the refresh set to 60.001.

I'm using this test http://i807.photobucket.com/albums/yy352/floatpoo/444_faq/tint-blue-rgb-1080p.png

Checking for red and magenta sharpness. They are both blurry and everything else is sharp.

Can't find any info on how to change the edid. Can anyone help?

Thanks
Edited by jarablue - 12/8/12 at 2:37am

Well I ran the edid fix and now everything is clear as day. Awesome sharp text. The thing that is bugging me is when I go into my nvidia control panel, the maximum(recommended) resolution is 1680x1050 NOT 1920x1080. Why is that? The HD/SD resolution options that were there before the edid fix are not there now. It just lists PC resolution. And the rec/max is 1680x1050. Does anyone know whats going on there?

Before I ran the edid fix I created a custom resolution of 1920x1080 and that is what my set is at now. But I wonder if I didn't create that resolution would I be stuck at 1680x1080. Why isn't 1920x1080 listed under PC resolutions as rec/max?

Thanks again for the help!

I have a 47LD450 fed by an NVIDIA GT8800 card (DVI to HDMI). I had 4:4:4 working under Vista. I had to upgrade to Windows 8. The new NVIDIA driver blew away the 4:4:4. I reinstalled the EDID fix, but I still don't have 4:4:4. I seem to remember that the EDID required a specific version of the NVIDIA driver--can anyone tell me if this is the case and what that version number is? I tried custom resolutions (59 Hz, etc.) but they did not work either.

Any help appreciated!

Best,

Brian

To sum up for the last few posts of questions, Go to your input menu on your LG HDTV. NAME your HDMI 1, 2, 3, etc. port by pressing the blue rectangle on your remote and choose "PC" from the predefined labels.

This only works with Progressive resolutions since you can't get EXACT pixel information from a variating analog signal like 1080i. ALSO, this only works for 120/60/50hz refresh rates. using 30/24hz will cause PC mode to be disabled. (see bottom of post for a note about this issue)

To check if its using "PC mode" (also known to me as 4:4:4 mode), press the INFO button on your LG remote and you will see the description of the current resolution change from the format of 1080p to 1920x1080@60hz which is PC speak for 1080p.

This is also the similar method for Samsung TV's but you will be pressing Tool or the something button by that name in your input menu. LG and Samsung are the only one's i know that make this process the easiest with Sony being the next.

If your using an AMD card, getting Full 4:4:4 RGB only needs a setting adjustment in the CCC. Go to your My Digital Flat-Panel section and choose the Pixel Format menu. Select RGB 4:4:4 (Full) PC Standard and you are set.

If you are using an Nvidia card, use this tool: http://blog.metaclassofnil.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/NV_RGBFullRangeToggle.zip. This is a process that needs to be repeated every time you reinstall the Driver so make a note on how to perform this method each time for you to remember. This method ALLOWS audio and video over HDMI. the EDID override trick in the registry that goes around on several other sites with this issue doesn NOT allow Audio. so do not use that method.

PC mode is the recommended mode for getting the closest to what the developer of any content intends. If it disabled settings on your TV, its doing so for accuracy and reduction in processing time which should all be then handled by your PC's graphics card. On an LG, Samsung, and Sony TV, It gives you enough options to play around with even in PC mode to get near-perfect PQ so don't worry about switching back and forth.

Basically, any device you use that has an HDMI connection (assuming it also supports progressive resolutions) should be using the PC mode. I use it with my Blu-ray player and i switch from 24hz to 60hz to enable PC mode and even with a 4:2:0 Blu-ray, it makes the picture sharper and even clearer. Sure it isn't a 4:4:4 source, but its basically putting a 4:2:0 source in a 4:4:4 window which is essentially "upscaling" but without additional processing power. Its accurately fitting the image, pixel for pixel.
Edited by MDA400 - 1/7/13 at 9:02am

Yeah and thats the sickest part about it (with most TV's), especially for HTPC user.
You can't watch blurays or PAL sources (50hz) @60hz without stutter ...

RGB 4:4:4 support => 60hz
24/50/50hz support => no 4:4:4 RGB

Any suggestions for a 50"+ tv in the $700-900 range? I play a lot of rpg's, so little text is pretty important. I was considering the UT50 for a while, but apparently it doesn't support 4:4:4 chroma subsampling. I guess some people were saying text was still legible in games though, so I'm not too sure. I was hoping to find some 2012 model recommendations, but I can't seem to find any solid info.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!