Official 4:4:4 / Chroma Subsampling Thread - Page 8

Originally Posted by eklu65 

Any suggestions for a 50"+ tv in the $700-900 range? I play a lot of rpg's, so little text is pretty important. I was considering the UT50 for a while, but apparently it doesn't support 4:4:4 chroma subsampling. I guess some people were saying text was still legible in games though, so I'm not too sure. I was hoping to find some 2012 model recommendations, but I can't seem to find any solid info.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Originally Posted by MDA400 

This: LG 55" 1080p 120hz 55LS4500

Or This: LG 50" 1080p 120hz 50LS4000

The reason i chose only LG was that i searched all the other "quality" brands like Sony, Samsung, Sharp, Panasonic, Etc. and all of their LED 50"+ TV's are more expensive because they contain features like 3D, Smart TV, 240hz, etc. LG was the only brand that had enough variety from their site to offer 50"+ LED TV's in Full 1080p and 120hz without Smart or 3D TV in a 699 to 899$ range. Plus LG's have that "PC mode" feature so its a win-win in my opinion. The 50" also has Direct-Lit LED's instead of Edge-lit so contrast ratio will be greater on the 50", but if you want size, get the 55". the difference is minimal, really.

Does not mean you need to buy them from Best Buy, but its a good reference to what their suggested retail price is. Only downside is the # of HDMI ports LG recently uses with their HDTV's now.

Originally Posted by eklu65 

Thanks for the reply! That's definitely a consideration. Due to where I work, I am also able to get a UN55EH6000 for around $640 (shhhh don't tell). I am just wondering if it has much input lag, and if it supports chroma subsampling.

It sounds like it's down to these three:
UN55EH6000
55LS4500
P55UT50

Originally Posted by Tyrone Burton 

Hiya guys, fantastic thread, but forgive me if my question has already been answered, but it's a long thread lol.

I'm searching for an LCOS projector still and will be using alot of video games on it, and will soon be playing PC games on it too, so having 4:4:4 is of course a brilliant thing.

Do all TVs with a PC mode usually support the full 4:4:4? If so, I'll have to keep an eye out in reviews for one.

Originally Posted by MDA400 

Choose either the LG or Samsung. I kind of lean towards LG for still putting 10 point calibration on most of their TV's, but that Samsung looks worth it for its features. Your choice, but those two. Like i said, LG and Samsung are known for having an option to "force" an input to a PC signal.
Usually they do. It's "PC" mode because at least by PC, Windows was followed with that word until Linux and Mac are just as capable so its bundled into one.
But anyways, with a PC, your probably using the RGB color space by default and are powerful enough to support millions of colors that RGB 4:4:4 (or YCbCr) supports.

By setting your TV to treat the Input as a PC, it checks for certain variables such as is it 50/60hz? is it progressive? anything that is standard at PC level is how this mode gets its name. Any interlaced resolution or refresh rate lower than 60hz, does not fall within a digital "standard. NTSC is 60hz and PAL is 50hz so these have been around for a long time and computers as they evolved, followed these standards.

ANY panel should support 4:4:4 that is equipped with HDMI or a VGA port and mostly all HDTV's do, but its usually only enabled to the full space by using a PC sending a PC signal (1920x1080@60hz as opposed to 1080/60p which is used for broadcast terms). This will also make your display set itself up so it expects a full 0-255 RGB contrast level. I have done this with a budget-brand Emerson 32" 720p TV and by HDMI, sending a "PC" signal from my Xbox 360 puts the "budget" TV into PC mode and makes the input lag almost non-existant with no overscan.

uncalibrated Sharpness could affect the micro image from a Digital SLR camera that put use on this forum to check 4:4:4 pixel support so calibrate your sharpness too when you get a PC signal working.

As for the LCOS projector, since its based on DLP technology which uses mirrors that switch rapidly, Its not advised for gaming. The mirrors that switch "rapidly" do not switch fast enough as to an electric pulse that switches a pixel's subpixel color "rapidly". Electricity is a form of light and nothing is faster than light so its a good start to buy a Fixed-Pixel display.

Originally Posted by Tyrone Burton 

thanks for the reply, it's all sounding good to me. So basically I should look for a display device with a VGA (or DVI?) port and they usually should be 4:4:4 with 0-255?

And one last question which you did mention. What about 720p signals, most console games, are 720p 60hz, what happens there?

Originally Posted by MDA400 

Any TV/monitor that has a VGA or HDMI port should support 4:4:4 and Full Range RGB (0-255). Resolution SIZE does not matter so you can still get 4:4:4 at 720p, but you have send your display a 1280x720@60hz (720p) PC signal instead of an HDTV 720p signal and thats the tricky part. Nvidia videocards do not do this easily unless you make a custom resolution. AMD has an option already in its drivers for it. Using a VGA cable automatically sends this "PC" signal format. Using HDMI, you must know a way to get the videocard to treat it as DVI with audio, as HDMI is essentially that. DVI video standard, but a seperate connection in the cable for audio

I have a feature to force this 4:4:4 mode on progressive HDTV broadcast signals on my TV and when i found this out, i switched back and forth quickly to see the difference in text using my Xbox 360. So i know it works, but you'll get the most out of it if the source device (a console for example) supports 0-255 levels which is all in the video chip of the device and mostly every computer-oriented device does these days. even Apple's litte Apple TV device.

Originally Posted by Tyrone Burton 

I suspect its because TVs need the ability to enable it through a mode. Otherwise everything would be in 4:4:4, which movies and TV don't use. But that's just my amateur guess.

Originally Posted by MDA400 

Exactly. Every HDTV supports 4:4:4 (with exception of Rear-Projection and DLP because they use lines or mirrors and do not accurately represent 4:4:4 like the fixed-pixel grid it was designed for) .
You just need a way to enable it when using an attached device. This would be either RENAMING your HDMI's input label to PC (Only works on Samsung and LG as far as i have used), Setting your Sony to Graphics picture mode with Full pixel aspect ratio, or sending any brand of fixed-pixel HDTV a PC-oriented signal (named 1280x720 instead of 720p for example. 1280x720 is PC. 720p is an ITU-named consumer simplification for specifying the PC resolution of 1280x720@60hz which you know, progressive is shown in a single 60 field image).

You do not want to enable it with movies because they are shot in 4:2:0 at most. It would be maybe a bit sharper with presenting each color in its own available pixel, but since you don't have source to fill those pixels, there may be uneven-ness in color. HDTV's default to 4:2:2 for TV cable/satellite broadcast and movie playback.

Originally Posted by Tyrone Burton 

Wow. Are you saying on the part where you mentioned DLP, that DLPs don't support or even use subsampling or up sampling to 4:4:4?

I intend to buy a Mitsubishi DLP soon so that's my I'm asking.

Originally Posted by Tyrone Burton 

Wow. Are you saying on the part where you mentioned DLP, that DLPs don't support or even use subsampling or up sampling to 4:4:4?

I intend to buy a Mitsubishi DLP soon so that's my I'm asking.

Originally Posted by Tyrone Burton 

any answers? I play a lot of video games and soon PC games so just need to make sure DLP front projectors will do well with 4:4:4

Originally Posted by Tyrone Burton 

What did you mean before when you said that the mirrors on a DLP don't accurately represent 4:4:4 like a flatscreen?

Originally Posted by MDA400 



Basically, i said above that analog TV's do not operate by "bits" like digital displays handle information, but with frequencies in hertz. they are straight electric. Digital is electric too, but have that logic portion like a computer that converts electricity to a storage called a " Bit".

Digital displays have a memory bank of what image they receive before they output it to their panel. This is why flat panel Digital displays have INPUT DELAY/LAG. A CRT does not have this because the technology basically receives an electric frequency that is output to specific color temperature display in lines in interlace form. That makes them 1-2 milliseconds if anything, delayed. Not detectable by a human's brain.

DLP on the other hand uses mirrors. it still converts electricity to color through frequency but is output over a lamp. The mirrors aren't as fast as logical bits or straight electricity so it is the worse technology for gaming, even though clarity is great.

What this means for 4:4:4 is that it translates to bits of color per channel for PIXELS. analog display do not have "pixels" but "lines". So even if a DLP or CRT may accept a 4:4:4 potential picture, it can't produce it accurately like a Flat-Panel could. Read this for more clarification because they define X : X : X color sampling with pixels in mind: What is Color Subsampling?

Originally Posted by adaweawe 

Four of the 32 inch LED TVs that I've tried over the past two years had a max resolution of 1366. Setting my PC to 1366 over HDMI provided a very satisfactory clarity on the TVs.

These brands were JVC, Visio, and two Westinghouse's.

If you are only going for 1366 resolution and don't care about 1920 resolution, then rest assured knowing that all four TV brands that I've tried support 444 chroma at their native 1366 resolution. Set your PC to 1366 and you will be fine.

Originally Posted by MDA400 

That's good to know because I haven't had the opportunity to test multiple TV's in their native resolutions with a PC input. So if you can get a PC resolution output to your TV, then all flat panels MUST be able to support 444 chroma. A hint at this would be if the TV was capable of Deep Color and xvYCC since those color spaces support higher than the 4:4:4/8-bit per component colors.

For people with a 1080p TV, you would not want to set it to 1366x768 unless there is no way of forcing PC mode on an HDTV resolution or sending a 1920x1080 PC signal. You could always create a custom resolution within your graphics card to something like 1920x1079 with 1 line missing, to trick your display. The difference would hardly be noticeable.

Originally Posted by iwb100 

With my Xbox I am connected to my Samsung in PC mode, 1080p (or as displayed on the TV 1920*1080@60Hz). No worries, gives the lowest lag.

However the picture is not as good. And unless I turn Sharpness up to 100 looks pretty bad.

My Samsung when set to PC mode only allows picture size to be set to 16:9 (screen fit is not selectable).

What is going wrong?

Originally Posted by Tyrone Burton 

When in PC mode there is no need to worry that your not seeing the full image, you are. It's actually already enabled when set to 16:9. And also something else. Turning sharpness to zero in PC mode is wrong,if you do it will look far worse than the other modes, I think its deliberately artificially blurring the Image. You must set sharpness to 50 in PC Mode, that equals 0 in movie mode. So PC modes sharpness at 50 and movie modes 0 are the same.

Originally Posted by MDA400 

I thought Samsung TV's DISABLE Sharpness when in PC mode. That and color saturation too because in PC mode, your telling your display detect EXACT information from the source. So your TV sets itself automatically for optimal sharpness and color based on the resolution and content type. weird...

If you have the ability to set sharpness in PC mode like i do with mine, look at this image to properly calibrate it then: Sharpness 1920x1080 Test