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Official 4:4:4 / Chroma Subsampling Thread - Page 10

post #271 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by Some dillweed View Post

Yeah, sorry for my ignorance. I actually just figured this out earlier tonight after realizing that the way I've been calibrating for PC has basically been wrong this entire time, and came back to edit my post to say "Never mind, I'm an idiot." redface.gif

edit: Okay... wait... I've been using the 4:4:4 EDID override on my Nvidia card for a while now, and at the default settings on brightness, contrast, etc., the High black level setting shows the right levels. Changing to Low crushes all shadowed areas into black and blows out brighter areas. Also, I just checked all three modes (Standard, Wide, PC) with the same main settings (backlight, brightness, contrast, color, color temp) and everything else at default besides sharpness, which is different on the PC mode. Unadjusted, uncalibrated, and unprofiled, the 25% stepped saturations all look very similar but with slight differences in the amount of colour and luminance.

They all show "Screen (RGB-PC)" under the settings. So, how are you supposed to know whether your TV is getting a YCbCr444 signal or an RGB signal? What difference does it make to calibration, and how does calibrating a 4:4:4 PC signal differ from an RGB PC signal?

As I understand it, I'm not actually supposed to touch the grayscale or CMS controls and am just supposed to use the colorimeter and software like ArgyllCMS to calibrate the video card gamma curves and create a profile. I am confused now as to which signal is right, which mode is right, which gamut is right, etc.

"Its ok. We all start out as idiots"

*Deleted*
Edited by MDA400 - 2/12/14 at 12:01pm
post #272 of 337
Thanks for the help, MDA. I do appreciate it.

So, you distinguish between YCbCr and RGB/full range with the Low and High black level. Does that mean that the TV's pretty much always displaying an RGB signal if I have that EDID override working (it passes the belle nuit and blurry text tests)? Because the High black level seems to be the right choice both in and out of the PC mode.

I do have a colorimeter already myself, and until this week was just using it with HCFR to adjust the 10-point controls (and mistakenly the less-than-Wide gamut options and the CMS). I've also gotten some tips and advice from the guys in the madVR + ArgyllCMS thread regarding more in-depth calibration and the whole profiling and 3DLUT creation process. I'm still experimenting with various combinations of no/some on-display grayscale adjustments and then calibrating through the software, to see which mixture gets the best results. It seems like this TV kind of gives up some gamut coverage in using the PC mode, and using the 4:4:4 EDID override with the Wide gamut option outside of PC mode seems to give the most coverage overall. It seems like you either compromise by getting a slightly faster response and lesser gamut, or a wider gamut for potentially better calibration and profiling but it's slightly slower. Since I'm basically laid up in bed waiting for surgery, most of my PC gaming is being done with a controller anyway, so choosing the setting with more coverage instead of faster response seems like the lesser of two evils to me.
post #273 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by Some dillweed View Post

Thanks for the help, MDA. I do appreciate it.

So, you distinguish between YCbCr and RGB/full range with the Low and High black level. Does that mean that the TV's pretty much always displaying an RGB signal if I have that EDID override working (it passes the belle nuit and blurry text tests)? Because the High black level seems to be the right choice both in and out of the PC mode.

I do have a colorimeter already myself, and until this week was just using it with HCFR to adjust the 10-point controls (and mistakenly the less-than-Wide gamut options and the CMS). I've also gotten some tips and advice from the guys in the madVR + ArgyllCMS thread regarding more in-depth calibration and the whole profiling and 3DLUT creation process. I'm still experimenting with various combinations of no/some on-display grayscale adjustments and then calibrating through the software, to see which mixture gets the best results. It seems like this TV kind of gives up some gamut coverage in using the PC mode, and using the 4:4:4 EDID override with the Wide gamut option outside of PC mode seems to give the most coverage overall. It seems like you either compromise by getting a slightly faster response and lesser gamut, or a wider gamut for potentially better calibration and profiling but it's slightly slower. Since I'm basically laid up in bed waiting for surgery, most of my PC gaming is being done with a controller anyway, so choosing the setting with more coverage instead of faster response seems like the lesser of two evils to me.

Basically, the reason for having a Black Level setting is because #1: it's a name brand TV that gives the benefit of switching colorspace levels and #2: its because HDTV's can decode YCbCr so there needs to be behavior in the TV to switch it. With the EDID override, your basically telling the TV to turn HDMI in DVI (no sound and RGB only), so yes your TV is always using RGB with the override. 4:4:4 isn't a colorspace, but a bit depth of the color space so RGB 4:4:4 full chroma is the most uncompressed digital video known right now.

Whether its using the VGA port (sets the TV into HIGH/0-255 levels for a RGB-only connection) or having a Black Level setting for HDMI (because it can carry both RGB and YCbCr), that is the reason an HDTV must compensate for both.

I know it sucks that you can't use CMS while in PC mode (I can but I have a 2013 model so either they added it in 2012 or this year's sets), otherwise saturation would look just as good as non-PC mode. Don't know if its a reason to upgrade, but I can tell you my 2013 32" LG has an auto black level option so you dont have to switch back and forth, every color gamut in PC mode (not limited to wide or standard), and a working 4:4:4 image without an EDID override. So they have fixed a lot of annoyances in a short couple of years.
post #274 of 337
Alright, thanks for the explanation.

Yeah, unfortunately I'm not exactly flush with funds right now due to the whole medical issues thing and being unable to work, so my options are pretty much limited to trying to make the best compromise with the equipment I already have. At least I mostly understand how to adjust, calibrate, and profile properly now.
post #275 of 337
It's alright and I understand as I am 21 and in college. So i'm only sporting a 32" 1080p LG LN5300 HDTV (350$) and a 380$ LG 5.1 LHB326 Blu-ray combo surround sound system. A "budget" setup compared to most home theater specific systems and yeah being almost broke sucks.

It's exactly why I know so much about this little TV. Because I don't have enough money to work with anything else. wink.gif
post #276 of 337
Hey Mda400 (sorry to hijack this thread lol), I don't suppose you know if my bog standard Panasonic TX-L39B6B does 4:4:4? I've hooked it up to my pc and tried ALL the above tricks and shortcuts to enable 444 but I don't think it's working. I've tried HDMI/PC rename trick, EDID override trick, DVI - HDMI cable etc. but no change. My desktop backgrounds look a bit pixelated even in 1080p on the TV (varies from picture to picture), but the same pictures look fine (no pixelation) when I view them on my old Dell monitor. So I know it's not the pictures. And red text on blue background is blurry.

Also in games the colour is off:

In Trine for example the reds glow strangely with a blue background (Crystal Caverns level) - colours different when compared to Dell monitor
Just Cause 2, red lights have dark blue halo around them, and clouds have major banding issues
Planetside 2 the shadows look weird, with a blue tinge to them, plus an edge glow around light sources
Oblivion, lights have borders around them etc.

All seems like lower colour resolution to me i.e. 4:2:2 instead of 4:4:4. I've tinkered with every setting on the tv including advanced settings like RGB gain/white balance etc. but it doesn't fix the colour problems.

I noticed that changing the colour temperature in the AMD CCC alters the look of all this (reducing the temp to warmer say 5000k instead of 6500k) improves the pixellation but makes a yellow tinge to the screen. And why is colour temperature/use EDID option missing when using HDMI, but present when using DVI?? Something seems wrong with the whole shebang. I'm guessing it's because there isn't a dedicated driver installed made by Panasonic that this whole thing happens. It's either the generic pnp monitor driver or the EDID override one. Whereas my Dell has a specific driver made by them so it works fine (it's just too small) .

I was a cheapskate going for the cheapest Panasonic, now I'm thinking I should have gone with LG lol! The Panny doesn't have a PC Mode, but it does let me rename HDMI 1 and 2 to any input label. Also, the HDMI/RGB Colour Space normal vs full doesn't alter the pixellation problems/wrong colours, it just varies the overall brightness/vibrancy slightly. I have my PC set to Full RGB in CCC, plus latest AMD drivers 13.4.

Sorry just wanted to ask an expert as there is nobody who can give straight answers to these questions! Thx for all your feedback in this thread and helping others with this confusion. It's about time AMD and Nvidia sorted this nonsense out with the tv makers! Or maybe they don't want to??
Edited by masterfreeman - 8/12/13 at 10:48am
post #277 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by masterfreeman View Post

Hey Mda400 (sorry to hijack this thread lol), I don't suppose you know if my bog standard Panasonic TX-L39B6B does 4:4:4? I've hooked it up to my pc and tried ALL the above tricks and shortcuts to enable 444 but I don't think it's working. I've tried HDMI/PC rename trick, EDID override trick, DVI - HDMI cable etc. but no change. My desktop backgrounds look a bit pixelated even in 1080p on the TV (varies from picture to picture), but the same pictures look fine (no pixelation) when I view them on my old Dell monitor. So I know it's not the pictures. And red text on blue background is blurry.

Also in games the colour is off:

In Trine for example the reds glow strangely with a blue background (Crystal Caverns level) - colours different when compared to Dell monitor
Just Cause 2, red lights have dark blue halo around them, and clouds have major banding issues
Planetside 2 the shadows look weird, with a blue tinge to them, plus an edge glow around light sources
Oblivion, lights have borders around them etc.

All seems like lower colour resolution to me i.e. 4:2:2 instead of 4:4:4. I've tinkered with every setting on the tv including advanced settings like RGB gain/white balance etc. but it doesn't fix the colour problems.

I noticed that changing the colour temperature in the AMD CCC alters the look of all this (reducing the temp to warmer say 5000k instead of 6500k) improves the pixellation but makes a yellow tinge to the screen. And why is colour temperature/use EDID option missing when using HDMI, but present when using DVI?? Something seems wrong with the whole shebang. I'm guessing it's because there isn't a dedicated driver installed made by Panasonic that this whole thing happens. It's either the generic pnp monitor driver or the EDID override one. Whereas my Dell has a specific driver made by them so it works fine (it's just too small) .

I was a cheapskate going for the cheapest Panasonic, now I'm thinking I should have gone with LG lol! The Panny doesn't have a PC Mode, but it does let me rename HDMI 1 and 2 to any input label. Also, the HDMI/RGB Colour Space normal vs full doesn't alter the pixellation problems/wrong colours, it just varies the overall brightness/vibrancy slightly. I have my PC set to Full RGB in CCC, plus latest AMD drivers 13.4.

Sorry just wanted to ask an expert as there is nobody who can give straight answers to these questions! Thx for all your feedback in this thread and helping others with this confusion. It's about time AMD and Nvidia sorted this nonsense out with the tv makers! Or maybe they don't want to??

Its up to the display manufacturers to fix the EDID problem, not video card manufacturers. My 2010 LG failed 4:4:4 under PC mode, but it now works (with audio too) with my 2013 LG in PC mode. Same goes for Samsung and Sony after testing relatives' TV's. In the future, go for a Sony, LG, or Samsung if not on a budget. You get what you pay for, you know.

If you Google image search tint-blue RGB and look at the first image, you will see different colored boxes on a blue background. If red and magenta text in those boxes are blurred, then you don't have full chroma. I'm sure there is an EDID override for AMD, but I own NVidia and only know how to do it there. It would either be a windows registry thing or through the display driver installation's display.info file.

P.S. - don't use any of those AMD CCC color settings (except for pixel format and resolution) when using an HDTV that already has those settings in its own menu. Monitors usually do not have those settings because they are stripped down to provide as little processing delay, so they require control from the video card.

Just keep trying, and if you end up frustrated, there's always that inferior, but 4:4:4 VGA port on your TV.
post #278 of 337
Thx for the response, ok I'll keep trying. Just a quick point though, the tv doesn't have a VGA port! It only has HDMI 1,2, plus component and scart. Does that mean it definitely won't do 444? (Have you seen TV's that can do 444 with just a HDMI connector?). Regarding you get what you pay for, this tv looks good when watching broadcast channels, especially HD ones, plus no input lag, very little motion blur on nature programmes (panning shots), otherwise no problems at all. This is just some weird glitch between the tv and the pc. I suppose Panasonic didn't intend for this to be used with PC's. I may have to wait and see how the new consoles look on it, would they have the same EDID/444 issues or are they unaffected?

(Oh and the reason I didn't go for a Sony, LG or Samsung is because they wouldn't be IPS! Panasonic stated IPS Alpha, the only manufacturer to do so. Even LG seem to be using VA panels now, so what LG do you have and is it IPS? Are you happy with motion/viewing angle etc.? Thx)
post #279 of 337
hi all

does anyone have any info on the LG 39LN540V, this model seems to be closely related the U.S 5300 series, but LG Europe can't or won't confirm me on that .

Anyone tested the LG XXLN540V with 4:4:4 chroma subsampling?`

any info is appreciated!


/Cheers
post #280 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by masterfreeman View Post

Thx for the response, ok I'll keep trying. Just a quick point though, the tv doesn't have a VGA port! It only has HDMI 1,2, plus component and scart. Does that mean it definitely won't do 444? (Have you seen TV's that can do 444 with just a HDMI connector?). Regarding you get what you pay for, this tv looks good when watching broadcast channels, especially HD ones, plus no input lag, very little motion blur on nature programmes (panning shots), otherwise no problems at all. This is just some weird glitch between the tv and the pc. I suppose Panasonic didn't intend for this to be used with PC's. I may have to wait and see how the new consoles look on it, would they have the same EDID/444 issues or are they unaffected?

(Oh and the reason I didn't go for a Sony, LG or Samsung is because they wouldn't be IPS! Panasonic stated IPS Alpha, the only manufacturer to do so. Even LG seem to be using VA panels now, so what LG do you have and is it IPS? Are you happy with motion/viewing angle etc.? Thx)

I know what you mean about the VGA port and that's what i was afraid of as i was typing. The 2013 LG I have is a 32LN5300 LED HDTV and so it too does not carry a VGA port. They are trying to get rid of analog inputs in the computing sector by 2015. So no more VGA it looks like.

If there is no option within the TV's menu to force it to become a "monitor" essentially, then the EDID override is the only way to enable 4:4:4 for your display. Again it has to do with the audio extension of the HDMI/DVI specification. So if the manufacturer does not handle it correctly/simultaneously with uncompressed video, you can't get full chroma with audio without using the EDID.

As for the panel type of current LG's, my 2010 LG was S-IPS and it looked great. But so does the M-VA LN5300 LG that i have now. If i had to choose, i would choose a VA panel because the Blacks are superior with VA versus IPS as well as input lag.
post #281 of 337
When I said plasma monitor I literally meant monitor, RGB works out of the box on all the models in the link below some with a scanning frequency up to 120hz wink.gif

http://www.panasonic.com/business/plasma/index.asp
post #282 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickywinford View Post

When I said plasma monitor I literally meant monitor, RGB works out of the box on all the models in the link below some with a scanning frequency up to 120hz wink.gif

http://www.panasonic.com/business/plasma/index.asp

info on EU models, anything? smile.gif
post #283 of 337
*crap post*
post #284 of 337
Hello,

The LG LN5300 is known for using chroma 4:4:4, but what about europan LN5400 model?

Anyone have the info?
post #285 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by pineko View Post

Hello,

The LG LN5300 is known for using chroma 4:4:4, but what about europan LN5400 model?

Anyone have the info?

It says under "Special" of the Technical Specification tab, that it has "Input Labeling" which should mean that the TV should support full chroma by enabling the PC input label.

LG's site isn't always accurate with every TV they currently have displayed, but I've used 3 different LG TV's in the last 5 years (32L2D, 32LD450, and 32LN5300) and they all have full chroma capability, either with or without the PC input label.
post #286 of 337

I do believe I have just taken the best photos yet that demonstrate the difference between full 4:4:4 chroma and reduced chroma.  You are welcome to re-use the images without any credit to me, though the test image itself was made by bspvette86.  For reference, these photos are of my Toshiba 39L1350U, which I will post a full review of later (note that it's awesome for gaming, even for 240p over composite if you like raw, blocky pixels and even simulates the 90s CRT gamma on the composite input).

 

2013-10-10 UPDATE: Technically not a full review due to the format, but it's got just as much info - LINK

 

Chroma test pattern (to use for your own chroma testing!):

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1381724/official-4-4-4-chroma-subsampling-thread/60#post_21479875

 

Full 4:4:4 chroma (view full to really see the difference)

 

 

 

Reduced chroma (view full to really see the difference)


Edited by NintendoManiac64 - 2/11/14 at 9:58am
post #287 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDA400 View Post

Why I say use "wide" color gamut is because that is the gamut that holds none of the color channels back (making them equally have the Max range of color value possible for the panel). What you then do, is first calibrate greyscale if possible with 10 or 20-point to remove DeltaE color tint as much as possible.
Then use the main color setting (under brightness, contrast and such) to calibrate saturation for YELLOW first (yellow as you may notice is the last color to fully saturate after cranking up the color saturation. This is why Sharp experimented with adding a yellow subpixel to give more vibrance to yellow).
Finally, you use CMS to indpendently control color saturation for red, green, blue,etc. (You should NEVER have to touch luminance and tint unless you have a messy source. Only saturation for balancing light output between each color.).
Also, color temp is a factor with color balance. Use the one that balances out colors the closest even before grayscale calibration.

NOW, PC mode switches the TV from expecting a native compressed YCbCr signal (with mucho processing/input delay. Only use for bluray, DVD, cable) to expecting an uncompressed, clean, non-subsampled, etc. RGB signal (NO processing and little input delay). Setting to standard gamut instead of wide in PC mode, is like limiting the full range of RGB (ONLY on LG's. Samsung is different as I state below).

So with gamut, you want the one that shows the MOST color, but falls within balance of each grayscale step so no oversaturation is present. With a Samsung, you lose the ability for 10-point IRE, CMS, saturation/color, and tint in PC mode because Samsung has done the guesswork for the type of color format that is RGB.

That is why "Standard" gamut in PC mode is the best for the already full range RGB signal. Use "native" for non-PC mode. In summary, RGB is most accurate, but bandwidth expensive.

Hope this confusing, yet hopefully informative post helps.

So I noticed a post on another forum mentioning chroma and decided to check catalyst control center to check what kind of pixel format my HLT5087s accepts. Catalyst control center says that my tv supports RGB 4:4:4 Pixel Format Studio (Limited RGB) and RGB 4:4:4 Pixel PC Format (Full RGB), I was using YCbCr 4:4:4 Pixel Format this whole time. mad.gif I set it to Full RGB and noticed that my blacks are crushed using this image http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/img/blacktest.png where the first 3 rows look solid black, and when I set ccc to Limited RGB using the same image I could easily tell all the black boxes from the background.

I only use my tv as a pc monitor so I take it I want to have it set to Full RGB right? Before I try and calibrate my set I want to make sure I'm using the correct settings and the info box/instruction booklet are not the best descriptions of what the settings actually do. I have the pc hooked up via hdmi in hdmi3/dvi and I also named it PC just incase it helps.

Menu:

Mode: Game
Color Tone: Normal
Size: Wide PC
Color Gamut: sRGB

I'm confused about what to set the color gamut at, is sRGB the one I want as described in your post?
sRGB- standard color tones
normal- flat and natural color tones
wide- deep and rich color tones.

Setup:

Game Mode: Standard
Home Theater PC: ON (improves the picture quality of PC input source)
HDMI Black Level: Normal (greyed out)

I have no idea what this means. The instruction booklet says that "You can view higher quality pictures by configuring the screen setting in PC Mode. If you set the Home Theater PC Function to On, you can configure the Detailed Settings (when Picture Mode is set to Standard or Movie) as in PC Mode."

So am I ok to go ahead and calibrate my set the the above settings? Can I use a calibration disk like Avia or are there recommended test patterns?

I was getting crushed blacks so I went ahead and turned Home Theater PC off and now everything is great. This is flavor country.
Edited by sega4ever - 10/5/13 at 1:49pm
post #288 of 337
Sorry for not reading the entire thread, but there's just too much information there to search through. I was trying to test full RGB mode on my Samsung UEF6500, but it's not quite working. I connected my PC through HDMI and set the Pixel Format to Full RGB 4:4:4 in Catalyst Control Center. Then, I renamed the HDMI input to "PC", which is supposed to force it to use 4:4:4. What's odd however, is that this mode has the sharpness set to 50 by default. Lowering it to 0 makes the image really blurry. I don't quite understand why. I would assume that Full RGB 4:4:4 would already look just about perfect with no additional sharpening whatsoever. If I don't rename the HDMI input and just use the regular Movie mode, the image looks fine at 0 sharpness. Only the text doesn't look quite as sharp as on my PC monitor, but I assumed that's exactly because of the chroma subsampling going on in that mode. Can anyone shed some light on this?
post #289 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radik View Post

Sorry for not reading the entire thread, but there's just too much information there to search through. I was trying to test full RGB mode on my Samsung UEF6500, but it's not quite working. I connected my PC through HDMI and set the Pixel Format to Full RGB 4:4:4 in Catalyst Control Center. Then, I renamed the HDMI input to "PC", which is supposed to force it to use 4:4:4. What's odd however, is that this mode has the sharpness set to 50 by default. Lowering it to 0 makes the image really blurry. I don't quite understand why. I would assume that Full RGB 4:4:4 would already look just about perfect with no additional sharpening whatsoever. If I don't rename the HDMI input and just use the regular Movie mode, the image looks fine at 0 sharpness. Only the text doesn't look quite as sharp as on my PC monitor, but I assumed that's exactly because of the chroma subsampling going on in that mode. Can anyone shed some light on this?

Sharpness in PC mode (for Samsung) should be set to 50 on your display as it is the correct value. My grandmother's UN60F8000 is the same way and in NON-PC mode, I use a setting of 3 as it looks perfect using this test image: Sharpness 1920x1080 83k .png file

Anywhere between 0-10 in non-PC mode is ideal, but 50 is the perfect value for PC mode. The reason the values are different is the chroma subsampling difference of YCbCr (non-PC mode) signals and RGB (PC mode) signals. RGB has full chroma, YCbCr strips color information.

Again this is only for Samsung, however I use the above test image for all TV's and monitors to find perfect sharpness (make sure no scaling is applied to the image or it will blur).
post #290 of 337
*double post*
Edited by MDA400 - 10/9/13 at 7:35am
post #291 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDA400 View Post

Sharpness in PC mode (for Samsung) should be set to 50 on your display as it is the correct value. My grandmother's UN60F8000 is the same way and in NON-PC mode, I use a setting of 3 as it looks perfect using this test image: Sharpness 1920x1080 83k .png file

Anywhere between 0-10 in non-PC mode is ideal, but 50 is the perfect value for PC mode. The reason the values are different is the chroma subsampling difference of YCbCr (non-PC mode) signals and RGB (PC mode) signals. RGB has full chroma, YCbCr strips color information.

Again this is only for Samsung, however I use the above test image for all TV's and monitors to find perfect sharpness (make sure no scaling is applied to the image or it will blur).
Thanks for the clarification!
post #292 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by sega4ever View Post

So I noticed a post on another forum mentioning chroma and decided to check catalyst control center to check what kind of pixel format my HLT5087s accepts. Catalyst control center says that my tv supports RGB 4:4:4 Pixel Format Studio (Limited RGB) and RGB 4:4:4 Pixel PC Format (Full RGB), I was using YCbCr 4:4:4 Pixel Format this whole time. mad.gif I set it to Full RGB and noticed that my blacks are crushed using this image http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/img/blacktest.png where the first 3 rows look solid black, and when I set ccc to Limited RGB using the same image I could easily tell all the black boxes from the background.

I only use my tv as a pc monitor so I take it I want to have it set to Full RGB right? Before I try and calibrate my set I want to make sure I'm using the correct settings and the info box/instruction booklet are not the best descriptions of what the settings actually do. I have the pc hooked up via hdmi in hdmi3/dvi and I also named it PC just incase it helps.

Menu:

Mode: Game
Color Tone: Normal
Size: Wide PC
Color Gamut: sRGB

I'm confused about what to set the color gamut at, is sRGB the one I want as described in your post?
sRGB- standard color tones
normal- flat and natural color tones
wide- deep and rich color tones.

Setup:

Game Mode: Standard
Home Theater PC: ON (improves the picture quality of PC input source)
HDMI Black Level: Normal (greyed out)

I have no idea what this means. The instruction booklet says that "You can view higher quality pictures by configuring the screen setting in PC Mode. If you set the Home Theater PC Function to On, you can configure the Detailed Settings (when Picture Mode is set to Standard or Movie) as in PC Mode."

So am I ok to go ahead and calibrate my set the the above settings? Can I use a calibration disk like Avia or are there recommended test patterns?

I was getting crushed blacks so I went ahead and turned Home Theater PC off and now everything is great. This is flavor country.

DLP's (like other projection TV's) do chroma conversion on their own. You will most likely always be seeing 4:4:4 chroma, but it will never be in its optimal sharpness unlike using an LCD pixel grid.

They are horrible for gaming and the one that my grandparents use to have had no input lag compensation. It is basically a lamp shining though rapidly switching micro-mirrors. A lot slower than pixel response.

I couldn't tell you much for your TV as I use an LCD and my suggestions are for LCD's primarily.
post #293 of 337
I have an nvidia 580gtx video card. And my TV is a 37LH30 LCD (took back the 39LN5300). Using a DVI to HDMI cable. I use the TV strictly for a computer monitor. What I have done so far is run the edid override registry hack (lists my resolutions now as PC only and not that HD/SD resolution crap) and have changed my input label on HDMI to PC.

Abundance of info here. When my hdmi input is changed to pc and I am running the override registry had for my nvidia board. Also when I change my black level to high the blacks lighten up a bit but changing it to low they become very deep black. I'm not sure if that is how it's supposed to be. The other settings I have are - Gamma:low, med or high - White Balance:cool, warm and medium. Black level I assume as posted earlier in this thread should be set to high for RGB full.

Just not to sure what I should set my Gamma and White Balance to.

Thanks smile.gif
Edited by jarablue - 10/19/13 at 5:12pm
post #294 of 337
edit:lcds
post #295 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by jarablue View Post

I have an nvidia 580gtx video card. And my TV is a 37LH30 LCD (took back the 39LN5300). Using a DVI to HDMI cable. I use the TV strictly for a computer monitor. What I have done so far is run the edid override registry hack (lists my resolutions now as PC only and not that HD/SD resolution crap) and have changed my input label on HDMI to PC.

Abundance of info here. When my hdmi input is changed to pc and I am running the override registry had for my nvidia board. Also when I change my black level to high the blacks lighten up a bit but changing it to low they become very deep black. I'm not sure if that is how it's supposed to be. The other settings I have are - Gamma:low, med or high - White Balance:cool, warm and medium. Black level I assume as posted earlier in this thread should be set to high for RGB full.

Just not to sure what I should set my Gamma and White Balance to.

Thanks smile.gif

Set Gamma to medium as this corresponds with 2.2 gamma (check This page to see how close the gamma setting is). You want the middle notches to blend in.

Use This image for White balance. First set your color temp. to Warm 1 or medium if you don't have Warm 1. This image is 1920x1080 so fullscreen your browser to see the full image.

Using that gradient (find one for Green and Blue also), use IRE 10/20-point method and make sure all IRE points smoothly gradiate across the image. For example, crank IRE 50 (red color channel) to 50 and you'll see what unbalanced IRE looks like.

And Yes, RGB = HIGH black level while YCbCr = LOW black level
post #296 of 337
I can confirm that Samsung LN40B550K (purchased in Fall 2009, USA) passes all 4:4:4 tests and also allows audio via HDMI connected to HDMI (Port 1). It does need PC Mode. No proof, but it really does support 4:4:4. Input lag is not bad for an S-PVA display, definitely higher than on my TN & IPS panels, but I do not have any numbers for you. Not sure if it is important but my EDID in factory service menu is set to disabled/off.

Why does 4:2:0 content look blurrier/worse on 4:4:4? Whenever I switch to 4:2:2 24Hz, movies definitely look sharper than on 4:4:4 60Hz. Is that normal? Is there a way to improve sharpness of 4:2:0 content when using 4:4:4? Everything else, including games and text, looks the sharpest on 4:4:4. I use MPC-HC, LAV Video Decoder with nVidia CUVID, and madVR with highest image quality upscaling and downscaling settings to view 4:2:0 content on my power-gaming rig. LAV Video Decoder allows me to select different output formats (4:2:0, 4:2:2, 4:4:4, RGB, 8bit - 16bit), but that doesn't seem to make any difference... Sharpness setting does not improve anything either and it is disabled in PC Mode. It is not a problem as I tested sharpness using http://web.comhem.se/zacabeb/repository/resolution_test_1080.png and its very sharp when using 4:4:4.

Both TV and videocard are set to use 0-255 range. I had to registry-"hack" 0-255 range for nVidia drivers so that 0-255 is forced at all times in both games and movies. I guess 4:2:0 will always look better on 4:2:2 than on 4:4:4 due to less/more upscaling?

I could switch to 4:2:2 24Hz when watching 24p content, but I do not want to because I would have to re-calibrate my TV almost entirely. 4:4:4 60Hz D65 calibration does not work for 4:2:2. There are does not seem to be a way to separately calibrate & save each, without messing up others. Re-calibrating every time I want to watch a movie and then again to play games is way to time consuming.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!
Edited by MonarchX - 10/25/13 at 12:08pm
post #297 of 337

Hi everyone!

Just my 2 cents about LG 32LA620S, since I tried to look it up and couldn't find any info on it's cooperation with PC.

Recently got one in hope it would work well with my PC. And I think it does. Belle Nuit looks good. I only played one game from 2003 on it, but still: I didn't see any lag.

It's connected via DVI-HDMI cable, set HDMI input to "PC", res. 1920x1080 is fine - no problem with anything, reading/writing text is ok.

I hope this info is right, since it's the first time I ever did connect PC with TV and for a blonde - it was a challenge;).

Any suggestions of better testing will be appreciated.

Cheers!

A.

post #298 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonarchX View Post

I can confirm that Samsung LN40B550K (purchased in Fall 2009, USA) passes all 4:4:4 tests and also allows audio via HDMI connected to HDMI (Port 1). It does need PC Mode. No proof, but it really does support 4:4:4. Input lag is not bad for an S-PVA display, definitely higher than on my TN & IPS panels, but I do not have any numbers for you. Not sure if it is important but my EDID in factory service menu is set to disabled/off.

Why does 4:2:0 content look blurrier/worse on 4:4:4? Whenever I switch to 4:2:2 24Hz, movies definitely look sharper than on 4:4:4 60Hz. Is that normal? Is there a way to improve sharpness of 4:2:0 content when using 4:4:4? Everything else, including games and text, looks the sharpest on 4:4:4. I use MPC-HC, LAV Video Decoder with nVidia CUVID, and madVR with highest image quality upscaling and downscaling settings to view 4:2:0 content on my power-gaming rig. LAV Video Decoder allows me to select different output formats (4:2:0, 4:2:2, 4:4:4, RGB, 8bit - 16bit), but that doesn't seem to make any difference... Sharpness setting does not improve anything either and it is disabled in PC Mode. It is not a problem as I tested sharpness using http://web.comhem.se/zacabeb/repository/resolution_test_1080.png and its very sharp when using 4:4:4.

Both TV and videocard are set to use 0-255 range. I had to registry-"hack" 0-255 range for nVidia drivers so that 0-255 is forced at all times in both games and movies. I guess 4:2:0 will always look better on 4:2:2 than on 4:4:4 due to less/more upscaling?

I could switch to 4:2:2 24Hz when watching 24p content, but I do not want to because I would have to re-calibrate my TV almost entirely. 4:4:4 60Hz D65 calibration does not work for 4:2:2. There are does not seem to be a way to separately calibrate & save each, without messing up others. Re-calibrating every time I want to watch a movie and then again to play games is way to time consuming.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

The way it works is non-PC mode accepts all refresh rates (if your TV supports them) down to 23.97/24hz. This non-PC mode just happens to be where 4:2:2 is being used when you are viewing 4:2:0 content (Blu-ray). Since the PC mode /input label only does anything when the TV receives a 60hz source, it will be worse for 24hz content (in PC mode you can't activate true 24hz reproduction if your HDTV had the feature because it is a processing feature that isn't monitor oriented).

chroma value aside, if the source on the disk is 24hz, playing through a player forced to 60hz (to force PC mode on) to your display will still have the frame-skipping involved when converting 24hz to 60hz because of uneven multiplying (24, 48, 72, crap you went over. 12 hz is being dropped from the next frame). For this reason, PC mode is not beneficial for watching video even though it supports 4:4:4.

HDMI 2.0 has only recently provided support for NATIVE 4:2:0 displaying, but you'll have to buy a supported TV for that (which are slim to none right now). Sharpness is also different in PC mode from non-PC mode. (because of chroma difference) On Samsung's perfect sharpness in non PC mode is somewhere between 0-10 (Psst usually close to 3).


Also for calibrating PC mode and non PC mode, you can usually use the same setting in both (with exception of 10/20 point IRE and black level) but of course one will be sharpest displaying 4:4:4 and one will be limited to 4:2:2. It's just the compromise HDTV's have to make for different sources these days. YCbCr in Non PC mode, RGB in PC mode.

So if you are watching video using a PC with an Nvidia video card, you have to switch the colorspace in the Nvidia Control Panel to YCbCr444 (using HDMI) , switch refresh rate to 24hz, and remove the PC input label when playing video on your PC (which by default, outputs RGB that PC mode natively processes)
post #299 of 337
My Samsung LN40B550K1FXZA SQ03 CCFL SPVA 40" HDTV has a PC Mode, which uses 4:4:4 subsampling, but in this mode I cannot adjust CMS - settings are ignored. In Movie mode my TV switches to 4:2:2 and text becomes odd-looking, just like the thread suggests. I read the thread and I know it is normal and why it happens. I just wanted to add that there is also a Standard Game Mode on my TV, which does both - allows me to use CMS for calibration and preserves clear and crisp-looking text. Game Mode avoids processing, but from what I understand, it uses 4:2:2 and not 4:4:4, yet text looks real good, even with sharpness turned off.
post #300 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonarchX View Post

My Samsung LN40B550K1FXZA SQ03 CCFL SPVA 40" HDTV has a PC Mode, which uses 4:4:4 subsampling, but in this mode I cannot adjust CMS - settings are ignored. In Movie mode my TV switches to 4:2:2 and text becomes odd-looking, just like the thread suggests. I read the thread and I know it is normal and why it happens. I just wanted to add that there is also a Standard Game Mode on my TV, which does both - allows me to use CMS for calibration and preserves clear and crisp-looking text. Game Mode avoids processing, but from what I understand, it uses 4:2:2 and not 4:4:4, yet text looks real good, even with sharpness turned off.

PC mode turns off as many processing features as possible to align itself with what a monitor is capable of in spec. which would be only basic color controls. This reduces as much input delay as possible, but requires color calibration help with the graphics cards settings. 4:4:4 isn't "subsampling" (not to nit pick, just clarifying for understanding), but the maximum chrominance value possible for an image.

Samsung and LG are the closest brands to compare with PC mode, but Samsung disables more than LG does (like CMS, 10-point IRE, Sharpness [on some models], and color) and should yield better input delay. You want to use PC mode with any content from a PC-like device that can output RGB. This would be an HDMI game console or PC with and HDMI capable graphics card. PC mode processes RGB color (which is also a reason CMS can be disable because uncompressed color that is RGB, provides exact color saturation for the display) and non-PC mode processes YCbCr. Turn off PC mode when watching Blu-ray (make sure to set your Blu-ray player to YCbCr and not RGB) since 4:2:2 is the closest to the 4:2:0 chroma found on Blu-rays and DVD's and you get 24hz playback.
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