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Official 4:4:4 / Chroma Subsampling Thread - Page 11

post #301 of 337
You missed my point entirely. PC Mode saturation is horribly low - colors are lifeless and using video card settings are almost impossible as their controls are very limited. I was saying that nonPC Mode called Game Mode provides the benefits of PC Mode but allows for a complete calibration control. Text in Game More is just as clear as in PC Mode and input lag is also low, but not as low as in PC Mode. Samsung Game Mode is like LG PC Mode it appears. I think its the best mode because it is sharper than 4:2:2 Movie Mode but can be calibrated to D65/Rec709 standard to mimic Movie Mode but provide better image.
post #302 of 337
As far as 2013 model 32" TVs go with 4:4:4 support, what are the best options? Is the LG 32LN5300 pretty much it? Low input lag would also be an important goal. Planned usage is as a PC monitor.
post #303 of 337
For larger sizes the Toshiba L1350U line is also pretty good, but 39" is the minimum for 1080p on said Toshiba.
post #304 of 337
I have a 2012 32" Toshiba in the bedroom good picture . I'm probably going to replace it with a Toshiba 50L1350U model in Jan /Feb or whenever the best price comes out
No need for smart TV . I have an PC with HDMI and Roku 2 in there also Dish and OTA . The big Plasma has PS3 +_DNLA streaming and Dish
post #305 of 337
I purchased a 2013 Philips 32PFL5708/F7 at Costco a couple of weeks ago for $250 + tax. I have a review of it on Amazon, here: Looking for a relatively inexpensive, rather large computer monitor? I'll let the article speak for itself for my enthusiasm for the relatively inexpensive display.

I've been using it for the past two weeks on a new PC build as my main monitor via the HDMI1 input (which also includes sound; more on that later).

After doing some reading (my first grasp at understanding chroma 4-4-4 issues), my suspicion is that it may be 4-4-2 at worse (for example, some of the vertical characters I'm typing seem to be slightly "off" ...although those characters that are "off" are primarily vertical component characters ...like "i" "t" "l" etc.) or some such (if I had to hazard a guess, I'd guess the pixel width of the problematical characters - and not all the "i's", for example, exhibit the untoward characteristic - is probably "1 pixel wide" in this editor).

And the viewing font that's displaying while typing here is VERY small for my aging eyes; considerably smaller than the webpages that I frequent. I'm managing, but it ain't comfortable (I just copied and pasted all the above text to Notepad, and it is more than adequately, comfortably legible in that display font). And when I use preview mode, with its more "normal" text size on the display, I'm not noticing any artifacts that I'm seeing in the editor.

So it may be, i.e., 4-4-4. I just can't tell, yet (don't know enough, ya-da, ya-da).

But for 98+% of what I'm using it for, the 32PFL5708 has been rather a satisfactory display (if not quite as perfect "at the edges" as the 27 inch 1920x1200 Hanns-G HG281D that has been my primary PC display for the past 5 years or so). But the Hanns-G has the benefit of a couple of hundred thousand more pixels being compressed on a much smaller panel (and 16:10 display is just a much better monitor resolution than 16:9 is IMHO). My eyes are getting old though, and I find that larger pixel size of the 32 inch is rather a comfort ...actually, I'm spending practically all my time on the Philips.

YMMV of course.

And no, I have not yet dialed it in to "the nines", but I've gotten close a few times in my various experiments (as I somewhat detail in the Amazon review referenced above).

I also just took the Pantone Huey (std.) calibration tool that I've owned for a decade plus off the Hanns-G display, and used it to calibrate the display on the new workstation, and if the colors aren't perfect, they're at least at the good 'nuff stage. Indeed, pleasantly workable.

Again. Text is fine using Word, and for typical web surfing (an occasional website may display occasional annoying artifacts, but those aren't common). And for video use, and a couple of bluray discs I used for testing purposes - Stargate, the extended cut - the picture was/is superb (as detailed in the Amazon review, where I mention that the color range in Stargate was better than on our aging Samsung plasma ...which was definitely not something I was expecting, and which was a major reason I decided to keep working with the Philips - to try and see if it was a calibration issue - after my immediate inclination was just to return it).

And I surfed through to the sharpness test link mentioned at the top of this page, and the test patterns are sharp and without any artifacts at all on my screen (even the single pixel width character problems I just mentioned).

Relevant to my musings after what I've been reading in this thread though, is that I'm using HDMI1 for input. There is a VGA input in the OSD tools, and there's a PC Settings menu choice that is greyed out. So I'm thinking that I need to get a DVI, DataPort, or HDMI to VGA adapter and see if the input channel may be of significance to using the 32PFL5870 as a display re: chroma 4-4-4 choices or whatever (the semi-performance gaming oriented Radeon 7850 graphics display card I'm using in the new build doesn't have a VGA out). If using the VGA input does make a difference, I'll post a followup.

Anyways, I thought I'd mention the Philips as a possibility for at least some people as a suitable computer monitor, because of the recent discussion on choices for a mid-size HDTV-as-PC display recently.

Oh. And my personal opinion on the sweet spot for the size of display after having had a 1920x1080 32 inch on my desk for a couple of weeks, at a viewing distance range of 28-to-32 inches (and yes, I just measured both distances), and after having used a 1920x1200 27 inch for several years at around the same distance (not measured), is that a larger HDTV panel size at 1080p resolution would have pixels that were simply too large for sitting so close (and this is only somewhat dependent upon your vision acuity: I do have corrective glasses specifically for computer use).

My two bits.

--- b ---
post #306 of 337
Hi, I have a question regarding the thoughts about console gaming in a non-4:4:4 capable display in the first post:

Quote:
Do you need a TV that is 4:4:4 Chroma Capable?


Do you only use your TV for watching TV/movies and playing console video games? Then NO, you do not need a 4:4:4 capable TV.


Do you use your TV as a PC monitor or play PC video games? Then YES, it is strongly recommended you use a 4:4:4 capable TV.

And after that:

Quote:
for the sake of argument, let’s assume game consoles are 4:4:4 capable. With games updating at a rate of 30/60 fps, detecting pixel differences between 4:4:4 and non-4:4:4 under normal viewing conditions is impossible. So 4:4:4 or non-4:4:4 on game consoles becomes irrelevant.

I don't understand why the second statement (bold) doesn't apply to PC gaming. Where is the difference? PC games update even on higher rates.

If we assume that modern videogame consoles are essentially PCs, sharing GPU's that work natively in RGB, a console set to ouput games at 0-255 Full RGB should suffer quality loss in a non 4:4:4 capable display as any PC would.

I don't know if 4:4:4 can be "compensated" into 4:2:2 without losing picture quality, but Xbox360 can (or so it claims in the settings) output games in YCbCr 4:2:2, and most graphics cards can ouput YCbCr 4:2:2 as pixel format via HDMI. Of course, this means we add one more level of processing to the image in the GPU. I don't know how good this solution is if our display is only capable of 4:2:2.

PS3 doesn't let you make any of this. Games will always be outputted in RGB (full or limited) and we could only have YCbCr for blu rays and similar video content.
post #307 of 337
I think it's on the idea that 1. smoother, gradiant-like graphics take a minimal impact with reduced chroma, and 2. when that was typed up, a native 1080p-rendered (not upscaled!) game on a console was very rare.
post #308 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonarchX View Post

You missed my point entirely. PC Mode saturation is horribly low - colors are lifeless and using video card settings are almost impossible as their controls are very limited. I was saying that nonPC Mode called Game Mode provides the benefits of PC Mode but allows for a complete calibration control. Text in Game More is just as clear as in PC Mode and input lag is also low, but not as low as in PC Mode. Samsung Game Mode is like LG PC Mode it appears. I think its the best mode because it is sharper than 4:2:2 Movie Mode but can be calibrated to D65/Rec709 standard to mimic Movie Mode but provide better image.

Indeed, Samsung game mode does not have full chroma 4:4:4 capability. Its PC mode works like LG's but as you know, you lose IRE 10-point grayscale and CMS. This is because Samsung is disabling as many things it seems fit to reduce input delay the most. Personally, I don't notice the difference between an LG in PC and a Samsung in PC and i think disabling CMS and 10-point IRE on a Samsung TV was a poor choice for them when appealing to calibrators.

I apologize for not understanding at first, but I too have been disappointed by this (when calibrating my grandmother's Samsung). Best thing to do for color in PC mode (if you care for low input delay) is keep the colorspace on AUTO, figure out the 2-point grayscale calibration with pluge patterns and calibrate gamma for the source on a Samsung TV. It would make the colors pop better than nothing.
Sharpness (if you can adjust it in PC mode) is pretty much always 50 for Samsung TV's and non-PC mode is usually somewhere 0-10.

This test image is what I use to find perfect sharpness.
post #309 of 337
Anyone know if the Panasonic X60B plasma range can do 4:4:4? I suspect not as I think when the 2013 (or maybe the 2012) range was launched, this feature was reserved only for the top-end models but it would be good to know for sure either way.
post #310 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by panetesan2k6 View Post

Hi, I have a question regarding the thoughts about console gaming in a non-4:4:4 capable display in the first post:
And after that:
I don't understand why the second statement (bold) doesn't apply to PC gaming. Where is the difference? PC games update even on higher rates.

If we assume that modern videogame consoles are essentially PCs, sharing GPU's that work natively in RGB, a console set to ouput games at 0-255 Full RGB should suffer quality loss in a non 4:4:4 capable display as any PC would.

I don't know if 4:4:4 can be "compensated" into 4:2:2 without losing picture quality, but Xbox360 can (or so it claims in the settings) output games in YCbCr 4:2:2, and most graphics cards can ouput YCbCr 4:2:2 as pixel format via HDMI. Of course, this means we add one more level of processing to the image in the GPU. I don't know how good this solution is if our display is only capable of 4:2:2.

PS3 doesn't let you make any of this. Games will always be outputted in RGB (full or limited) and we could only have YCbCr for blu rays and similar video content.

YCbCr on Xbox 360 is always 4:4:4 chroma (to prevent further conversion from RGB), but games are always natively 4:4:4 RGB. The very first post that states you do not need 4:4:4 for console gaming is deprecated because like NintendoManiac64 said, we are getting to the point where consoles can natively output your TV's resolution. No upscaling.

You can still benefit from a 4:4: display with an Xbox 360 or PS3 because if you look at game with killfeeds that have colored lettering in them (Call of Duty or Gears of War), the vibrant color difference from subsampling to full 4:4:4 is noticeable.
post #311 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by brdavis9 View Post

"So it may be, i.e., 4-4-4. I just can't tell, yet (don't know enough, ya-da, ya-da).

Update to my earlier comment

I use a Radeon HD7850 card to provide graphics on my DIY workstation. The driver for the card is provided by AMD in their Catalyst Control Center [CCC] utility. CCC reports that the Philips also supports RGB 4x4x4 Pixel format PC Standard (Full RGB). So the Philips 32PFL5708/F7 is a 4x4x4 HDTV display.

CCC also adds that "...the display supports more than one pixel format"
YCbCr 4x4x4 Pixel Format
YCbCr 4x2x2 Pixel Format
RGB 4x4x4 Pixel format Studio (Limited RGB)

...and adds "...Certain formats are better optimized for specific types of content than others."
post #312 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by brdavis9 View Post

Update to my earlier comment

I use a Radeon HD7850 card to provide graphics on my DIY workstation. The driver for the card is provided by AMD in their Catalyst Control Center [CCC] utility. CCC reports that the Philips also supports RGB 4x4x4 Pixel format PC Standard (Full RGB). So the Philips 32PFL5708/F7 is a 4x4x4 HDTV display.

CCC also adds that "...the display supports more than one pixel format"
YCbCr 4x4x4 Pixel Format
YCbCr 4x2x2 Pixel Format
RGB 4x4x4 Pixel format Studio (Limited RGB)

...and adds "...Certain formats are better optimized for specific types of content than others."

YCbCr 4:4:4 is usually used for monitors that have an HDMI port and can decode YCbCr.

YCbCr 4:2:2 is for TV's that do not have a mode to decode Full RGB and to preserve the representation of compressed media (This would be for those who have/don't have 24hz playback and have YCbCr decoding on their display).

RGB 4:4:4 (limited) is for monitors or TV's (mostly monitors since HDTV's with HDMI can decode some form of YCbCr) that cannot decode YCbCr, but need to preserve the contrast range of video.
post #313 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDA400 View Post

YCbCr 4:4:4 is usually used for monitors that have an HDMI port and can decode YCbCr.

YCbCr 4:2:2 is for TV's that do not have a mode to decode Full RGB and to preserve the representation of compressed media (This would be for those who have/don't have 24hz playback and have YCbCr decoding on their display).

RGB 4:4:4 (limited) is for monitors or TV's (mostly monitors since HDTV's with HDMI can decode some form of YCbCr) that cannot decode YCbCr, but need to preserve the contrast range of video.

Thank you. I appreciate that.

It seems the 32PFL5708/F7 can be rather versatile (depending upon your graphics card and drivers).

I can report that when I switched from YCbCr format to the RGB 4:4:4 (Full) choice in the CCC utility, my remaining clarity issues (which were already minor) "went away".

I'm using the HDMI-1 port to connect the PC (HDMI-1 also supports digital sound through the cable ...and yes, the onboard speakers on the 32PFL5708 are surprisingly adequate, including movie playback, at the short distance I'm sitting at), and the Philips readily accepted the RGB source input change on that input via the Catalyst setting. I'm speculating, but the VGA port on the Philips (and the grayed-out PC Setup OSD menu choice) might use that RGB setting by default.

...actually, I'm now looking for a good price on a second Philips (and possibly a third, if I can figure out a way - or build something - to reasonably mount them). The local Costco is now out of stock.

I've been using a four-dissimilar-display setup (a 27" 16:10, two 19" 4:3's, and a 21" 16:9 in portrait mode) in my older workstation for several years (having a lot of screen real estate makes doing my job easier).

Switching to 2 or 3 of the 32 inch Philips' (with the option of using AMD's Eyefinity to provide a cohesive desktop) would simplify having an "expansive" workspace. (The graphics card I'm using provides up to 6 displays, so that isn't a problem, either.)

...I am going to have to reconsider my current corrective lenses though lol. I need the focus point range increased another 6-12 inches, as I'd like to sit slightly further back.
post #314 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by brdavis9 View Post

Thank you. I appreciate that.

I can report that when I switched from YCbCr format to the RGB 4:4:4 (Full) choice in the CCC utility, my remaining clarity issues (which were already minor) "went away".

I'm using the HDMI-1 port to connect the PC (HDMI-1 also supports digital sound through the cable ...and yes, the onboard speakers on the 32PFL5708 are surprisingly adequate, including movie playback, at the short distance I'm sitting at), and the Philips readily accepted the RGB source input change on that input via the Catalyst setting. I'm speculating, but the VGA port on the Philips (and the grayed-out PC Setup OSD menu choice) might use that RGB setting by default.

Good to hear and you're welcome.

You are correct about VGA as it will not be able to pass YCbCr properly and is always expecting RGB on that input. DVI couldn't either even though HDMI is based off of DVI specification. HDMI added all the features for copyprotected playback so even if you wanted to watch blurays on your PC in their truest form, you'd need to use an HDMI cable with a YCbCr display and color format.
post #315 of 337

I just bought the TOSHIBA 50" L1350U and it is amazing as my PC monitor. it has 4.4.4 chroma and i use the HDMI 

because when otherwise i cant get 1080p. I onlu get a much lower res

anyway i wanted to ask should i set my GTX 780 graphic card for Ycbcr or RGB if using HDMI?

post #316 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by EJSLP View Post

I just bought the TOSHIBA 50" L1350U and it is amazing as my PC monitor. it has 4.4.4 chroma and i use the HDMI 
because when otherwise i cant get 1080p. I onlu get a much lower res
Actually you can use VGA at 1080p if you override the EDID and make a custom resolution (AMD users can use CRU - LINK). However the TV's "phase" setting won't save. If you don't do that then your resolution is limited to 1366x768 and 1280x1024, so it'd be fine for 720p content or lower, such as most 360 games or a Dreamcast (also a PS3 and Wii with a 3rd party cable).

Also take note that, at least with my 39L1350U, the sub-pixel arrangement is BGR, not RGB. You may need to calibrate Windows Cleartype if it's not smart enough to automatically detect that.

Lastly it's worth pointing out that the L1350U line of HDTVs also has a 3.5mm audio input that can be used with both VGA and HDMI, which can be very useful if you don't have a receiver and your GPU insists on not outputting 4:4:4 chroma when audio is sent over HDMI.

BTW, you may want to pop on over to this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1477874/toshiba-l1350u-series-2013
Edited by NintendoManiac64 - 2/10/14 at 10:46am
post #317 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by NintendoManiac64 View Post


Actually you can use VGA at 1080p if you override the EDID and make a custom resolution (AMD users can use CRU - LINK). However the TV's "phase" setting won't save. If you don't do that then your resolution is limited to 1366x768 and 1280x1024, so it'd be fine for 720p content or lower, such as most 360 games or a Dreamcast (also a PS3 and Wii with a 3rd party cable).

Also take note that, at least with my 39L1350U, the sub-pixel arrangement is BGR, not RGB. You may need to calibrate Windows Cleartype if it's not smart enough to automatically detect that.

Lastly it's worth pointing out that the L1350U line of HDTVs also has a 3.5mm audio input that can be used with both VGA and HDMI, which can be very useful if you don't have a receiver and your GPU insists on not outputting 4:4:4 chroma when audio is sent over HDMI.

BTW, you may want to pop on over to this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1477874/toshiba-l1350u-series-2013

So i should NOT be using HDMI for gaming and watching movies on the web?  what advantage would VGA at 1080 give me over HDMI?

sorry for being a noob at this

post #318 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by EJSLP View Post

So i should NOT be using HDMI for gaming and watching movies on the web?  what advantage would VGA at 1080 give me over HDMI?
It allows you to have 3 other HDMI devices plugged in. :P

Barring any DRM or HDMI handshake issues, you should use HDMI (or DVI -> HDMI) rather than VGA if that's an option, even with 1080p on VGA. This is why I mentioned the Dreamcast and 360 - Dreamcast predates HDMI and 1st gen 360s lack HDMI (Wii also lacks HDMI but VGA with Wii requires a 3rd party cable and the game in question must support 480p).
Edited by NintendoManiac64 - 2/11/14 at 10:02am
post #319 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by NintendoManiac64 View Post


It allows you to have 3 other HDMI devices plugged in. :P

Barring any DRM or HDMI handshake issues, you should use HDMI (or DVI -> HDMI) over VGA if that's an option, even with 1080p on VGA. This is why I mentioned the Dreamcast and 360 - Dreamcast predates HDMI and 1st gen 360s lack HDMI (Wii also lacks HDMI but VGA with Wii requires a 3rd party cable and the game in question must support 480p).

Unfortunately for me i dont know how to overide this EDID on my GTX 780 GPU to use VGA.  I have no need for 3 HDMI in's I only hook my PC and a cable box up to the TV

post #320 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by EJSLP View Post

I have no need for 3 HDMI in's I only hook my PC and a cable box up to the TV
Well then you're fine using HDMI; you can probably ignore VGA altogether. cool.gif

Fun fact: you can disable and relabel the inputs to have VGA (labed "PC") disabled and then rename your PC HDMI to "PC".


EDIT: For future reference, it would probably be better to edit your post rather than deleting it and posting a new one.
post #321 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by NintendoManiac64 View Post


Well then you're fine using HDMI; you can probably ignore VGA altogether. cool.gif

Fun fact: you can disable and relabel the inputs to have VGA (labed "PC") disabled and then rename your PC HDMI to "PC".


EDIT: For future reference, it would probably be better to edit your post rather than deleting it and posting a new one.

I did that in the settings when i set it up for my own ease of access. LOL   just seemed to make sense to label that as PC  since it is the input i would be using for all my PC use.

i did not delete that post, it said i was not  permitted to re-post a link and it was deleted by this forum?

post #322 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by EJSLP View Post

I did that in the settings when i set it up for my own ease of access. LOL   just seemed to make sense to label that as PC  since it is the input i would be using for all my PC use.
i did not delete that post, it said i was not  permitted to re-post a link and it was deleted by this forum?

NintendoManiac64 might've misunderstood your first post in which case, you should always use a digital video connection (HDMI/DVI) because it has the ability to read the "dot pitch" from your TV's EDID. Dot pitch aligns each pixel's information from the source device to each individual pixel on your display. This is the clear reason that digital video is better than analog and why you should not use VGA if you have HDMI.

PC label enables the 4:4:4 chroma and RGB decoding for your TV (turning it into essentially, a monitor). Without the PC label, your TV would be decoding YCbCr and the input delay would be more noticeable when using a device that sends RGB. If your using a computer, game console, etc, RGB is always the preferred color space. YCbCr is for compressed media like Blu-ray and DVD and has only become easier to display natively with a connection like HDMI that is the first to support it without conversion.

Summary to all this babble, GTX 780 - Use RGB (you will need this for correct contrast range as Nvidia defaults RGB to "limited 16-235" range. Download the binary)
post #323 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDA400 View Post


NintendoManiac64 might've misunderstood your first post in which case, you should always use a digital video connection (HDMI/DVI) because it has the ability to read the "dot pitch" from your TV's EDID. Dot pitch aligns each pixel's information from the source device to each individual pixel on your display. This is the clear reason that digital video is better than analog and why you should not use VGA if you have HDMI.

PC label enables the 4:4:4 chroma and RGB decoding for your TV (turning it into essentially, a monitor). Without the PC label, your TV would be decoding YCbCr and the input delay would be more noticeable when using a device that sends RGB. If your using a computer, game console, etc, RGB is always the preferred color space. YCbCr is for compressed media like Blu-ray and DVD and has only become easier to display natively with a connection like HDMI that is the first to support it without conversion.

Summary to all this babble, GTX 780 - Use RGB (you will need this for correct contrast range as Nvidia defaults RGB to "limited 16-235" range. Download the binary)

 

Thanks for all the info and utility.  when i check my TV's status on the on screen display it say's

resolution :1920x1080 

scan type :progressive

frame rate :60

aspect :16:9

bit depth :24 bit

color space  :sRGB

RGB YUV  :RGB(FULL RANGE)

Chroma format  :4.4.4

 

This is corerect for using as a PC monitor right?

post #324 of 337

MDA400, thanks for the info and the link for the binary. 

I wanted to ask right now my TV say this in the on screen display when i have my PC connected using HDMI,

 

Resolution   :  1920x1080

scan type   :   progressive

frame rate  :   60

aspect        :  16:9

Bit depth     : 24

Color space : sRGB

RGB YUV     : RGB (full range)

Chroma format  :  4.4.4. 

 

is that all the correct specs for using this as a PC monitor?

post #325 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by EJSLP View Post

MDA400, thanks for the info and the link for the binary. 
I wanted to ask right now my TV say this in the on screen display when i have my PC connected using HDMI,

Resolution   :  1920x1080
scan type   :   progressive
frame rate  :   60
aspect        :  16:9
Bit depth     : 24
Color space : sRGB
RGB YUV     : RGB (full range)
Chroma format  :  4.4.4. 

is that all the correct specs for using this as a PC monitor?

Yes. One last thing to test is if 4:4:4 chroma is actually being displayed. Use this test image (make sure the red and magenta text is sharp/not blurry).
post #326 of 337

I checked and all images have  ultra sharp clear edges,no blurriness at all.   there is NO bleed of colors so I guess i am good to go?

i appreciate the info and help.

have been very happy with this toshiba so far.

post #327 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by EJSLP View Post

I checked and all images have  ultra sharp clear edges,no blurriness at all.  I guess i am good to go?
i appreciate the info and help.
have been very happy with this toshiba so far.

You are pretty much set. wink.gif

If you want, use this site's test images to calibrate the basic picture options on your TV.

And here's a sharpness calibration image (since I'm just feeling generous biggrin.gif and sharpness is my interest to calibrate first on a new TV).
post #328 of 337

Thanks for all the help and links! you have been a huge help with this

post #329 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by EJSLP View Post

Thanks for all the help and links! you have been a huge help with this
You is welcome.smile.gif



<~
post #330 of 337

Well for me BOTH of you guys were a big help  and i thank you both for setting this straight for me with my toshiba 

love this TV as a PC monitor!  

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